View Poll Results: Did Flashpoint ruined the Flash and the Flash Family ?

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  • Yes

    43 62.32%
  • No

    21 30.43%
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  1. #106
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    It stood out to me in Doomsday Clock #12, because I don't remember it ever being referred back to since Flashpoint.

    Do you know which issues or stories have referenced it since?

  2. #107
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    It stood out to me in Doomsday Clock #12, because I don't remember it ever being referred back to since Flashpoint.

    Do you know which issues or stories have referenced it since?
    I know there's at least one recordatory in Willianson's run going "It created the speed Force". (talking about Barry's origin). It was early Rebirth, possibly issue #1 (I don't have it with me to check if it's the case right now). Can't recall the what was the take on Venditti/Van Jensen. There's of course Dclock.

    I'm sure I'm forgeting some.

    Which is meaningless to the point I was making anyway. One time is enough for me to say "too many".
    Last edited by BohemiaDrinker; 01-21-2020 at 06:09 PM.
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  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    Which is meaningless to the point I was making anyway. One time is enough for me to say "too many".
    If it's been referenced so infrequently that even hardcore fans can't keep track of it, and hasn't been used as a plot element, then that tells me it's not very important. This sounds like something that would be better described as a pet peeve, rather than something that has had any meaningful impact on the past ten years of Flash stories, something that would register with the casual readership.

  4. #109
    Fantastic Member docmidnite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    It stood out to me in Doomsday Clock #12, because I don't remember it ever being referred back to since Flashpoint.

    Do you know which issues or stories have referenced it since?
    It was one of the first things they changed after Flashpoint. I still don’t understand all of the butthurt over Barry becoming the Speed Force after being hit with the Anti Monitor’s death ray in CoIE myself but I’ve always felt that the Speed Force is an incredibly stupid concept since it was first introduced to make Wally the best speedster EVAR (which Wally didn’t need anyway since Messner-Loebs ALREADY made Wally a great Flash in his own right without it)

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    If it's been referenced so infrequently that even hardcore fans can't keep track of it, and hasn't been used as a plot element, then that tells me it's not very important. This sounds like something that would be better described as a pet peeve, rather than something that has had any meaningful impact on the past ten years of Flash stories, something that would register with the casual readership.
    I don't know what "casual readership" has to do with anything. And now that I think about it, I don't know how "relevant" the concept being in the last ten years has to do with the discussion either.

    The question posited by this thread was if Flashpoint ruined the Flash Family. I said right on on my first post that "Flashpoint just discarded it" and what ruined it was Flash Rebirth. I stand by that. I gave as one -but far from being the only - reason for that the speed force retcon. I explained why, and further clarified that for the Flash Family to be in a healthy state, that needed to be repudiated.

    The Flash Family is not in a healthy state (that's a fact), the retcon has not been repudiated (it's still available for use/allowed), and that's also a fact - as much as it being last seen last month in a high profile book - and I honestly believe that if tomorrow we have a cool get together that reestablishes the bonds among all those characters, old and new, BUT they're limited by this particular mechanic, the Flash Family is still in the crapper. I stand by all that as well.

    I can't see what point you're trying to make here outside of "well, it didn't bother me, so it shouldn't bother anyone".
    Last edited by BohemiaDrinker; 01-21-2020 at 07:21 PM.
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  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by docmidnite View Post
    It was one of the first things they changed after Flashpoint. I still don’t understand all of the butthurt over Barry becoming the Speed Force after being hit with the Anti Monitor’s death ray in CoIE
    That's not what the Flash Rebirth retcon was at all.

    Last edited by BohemiaDrinker; 01-21-2020 at 08:22 PM.
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

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  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by docmidnite View Post
    It was one of the first things they changed after Flashpoint. I still donít understand all of the butthurt over Barry becoming the Speed Force after being hit with the Anti Monitorís death ray in CoIE myself but Iíve always felt that the Speed Force is an incredibly stupid concept since it was first introduced to make Wally the best speedster EVAR (which Wally didnít need anyway since Messner-Loebs ALREADY made Wally a great Flash in his own right without it)
    The retcon is not that Barry became the lightning bolt that hit himself (that's from Secret Origins). And it's not that his death in COIE was actually him merging with Speed Force (Wally and Max come to this conclusion in the build up to Terminal Velocity).

    It is that, retroactively and into the future, Barry's existence generates the Speed Force and that when he was temporarily dead the Speed Force was stagnant. And now that he's back the Speed Force is better than it's ever been.

    That's the bad retcon, because of what they not so subtly implies it means everywhere else. The idea that, actually, Jay is beholden to Barry and that without Barry Jay would've never been as good a hero as he was. Or that the entire purpose, the entire personal goal of Max was learning more about the Speed Force is now meaningless because the answer is actually just Barry and -- here's the kicker -- Max meeting Wally was just him fucking up and overshooting the real person he needed to meet to fulfill his life's goal in Barry. Max, the character essentially created from the ground up to build the mystery of the Speed Force and teach Wally, was now stripped to nothing but a Barry cheerleader.

    And, obviously, for Wally it meant the death of his character development. It immediately and obviously placed Barry on a pedestal above Wally without any effort or growth. What took Wally years of struggle to do -- finally step out of his mentor's shadow and surpass him -- Barry did immediately. Just by existing. He was the source of everything and everyone, especially Wally, was just a hanger on the teat. All Wally's trials and tribulations amounted to him getting his ass kicked by the sidekick of his one off villain (Lady Savitar) while Barry beat her single handedly because Barry's just that great and he was always actually that great.
    Last edited by Dred; 01-21-2020 at 07:50 PM.

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    I don't know what "casual readership" has to do with anything. And now that I think about it, I don't know how "relevant" the concept being in the last ten years has to do with the discussion either.

    The question posited by this thread was if Flashpoint ruined the Flash Family. I said right on on my first post that "Flashpoint just discarded it" and what ruined it was Flash Rebirth. I stand by that. I gave as one -but far from being the only - reason for that the speed force retcon. I explained why, and further clarified that for the Flash Family to be in a healthy state, that needed to be repudiated.
    I don't think a seldom referenced piece of continuity has had any impact on the ruined-ness of the Flash Family. Lightning Strikes Twice would still be the same story, Speed of Darkness would still be the same story, Perfect Storm would still be the same story, Flash War would still be the same story, Rogues' Reign would still be the same story.

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    I don't think a seldom referenced piece of continuity has had any impact on the ruined-ness of the Flash Family. Lightning Strikes Twice would still be the same story, Speed of Darkness would still be the same story, Perfect Storm would still be the same story, Flash War would still be the same story, Rogues' Reign would still be the same story.
    Nope. A story featuring "Barry and Wally" is not the same as a story featuring "Barry and the other guy who syphons power from Barry", even if they are the same story.

    If tomorrow they decide to run with this bullshit again - which they may as well might, it still seeing print - it ruins everything for everyone who's not Barry. So it's not enough to ignore it, it has to be burned with with fire.
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

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  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    I wouldn't know, i don't watch cw shows.the only one i watched was smallville. But, the tv fans love the concept. They know it exists.
    I've seen more fans talk about Barry, or the original Flash, becoming the lightning bolt that hit Barry...but I don't think that implies he created the Speed Force.

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    Nope. A story featuring "Barry and Wally" is not the same as a story featuring "Barry and the other guy who syphons power from Barry", even if they are the same story.
    And a story featuring James Bond, Secret Agent is not the same as a story featuring James Bond, Man Who Once Had a Laser Fight In Outer Space. But GoldenEye ignored that part of continuity, just as all recent Wally West stories have ignored that part of Flash: Rebirth. Whether or not a Bond film between Moonraker and GoldenEye retconned that story out of continuity, GoldenEye would still be the exact same film. If a Flash comic had retconned that part of Flash: Rebirth, Rogues' Reign would still be the exact same story, word for word, panel for panel. If the comics are the exact same either way, then what's been ruined, what's been fixed?

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    And a story featuring James Bond, Secret Agent is not the same as a story featuring James Bond, Man Who Once Had a Laser Fight In Outer Space. But GoldenEye ignored that part of continuity, just as all recent Wally West stories have ignored that part of Flash: Rebirth. Whether or not a Bond film between Moonraker and GoldenEye retconned that story out of continuity, GoldenEye would still be the exact same film. If a Flash comic had retconned that part of Flash: Rebirth, Rogues' Reign would still be the exact same story, word for word, panel for panel. If the comics are the exact same either way, then what's been ruined, what's been fixed?
    James Bond uses soft continuity (as most cinema outside of maybe Marvel).

    Super-hero comics as of today don't (or they shouldn't, at least). The canon matters (or should); Wally could act the exact same in "Flash War" with or without this concept in use, but with it, he'd be a character that sucks. Emerald Twilight made Hal Jordan suck, and you couldn't really bring "Hal Jordan" back without addressing that. Same applies here.
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

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  13. #118
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I've seen more fans talk about Barry, or the original Flash, becoming the lightning bolt that hit Barry...but I don't think that implies he created the Speed Force.
    I mean, they were butthurt in youtube comments that wally was faster than barry. They began saying stuff like "DC logic barry created and generates speed force. Yet, his sidekick beats him".. Etc

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    I mean, they were butthurt in youtube comments that wally was faster than barry. They began saying stuff like "DC logic barry created and generates speed force. Yet, his sidekick beats him".. Etc
    So, it leaked out of comics... This thing really needs to be nuked!
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

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  15. #120
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    DC Comics has always had messy continuity. Right now it's at its messiest. The much cited Doomsday Clock #12 doesn't fit neatly into continuity for various reasons.

    During New 52 Manapul and Buccellato presented a completely different premise for how Barry Allen relates to the Speed Force. It contradicts the ideas Geoff Johns presented, but it hasn't been officially removed from continuity either. Which counts? Recently Joshua Williamson has been hinting at a larger history to the Four Forces, which doesn't mesh well with Flash: Rebirth. What's the origin point of the other Forces? Who generates them?

    The continuity that matters the most is the continuity that gets used, the continuity that's relevant to the story being read, the continuity that generates new stories. Only an "in the know" reader like yourself would realise that Wally absolutely sucks because of a story concept from ten years ago. Anyone who started reading The Flash three years ago would be unaware that Wally sucks, and would be at risk of enjoying the character.

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