Did Flashpoint ruined the Flash and the Flash family ? Can it be undone ?

[The Darknight Detective]

With both these things in mind, I think it's kind of overblown when people complain about Wally being completely ruined, his power coming from Barry etc. Because if we're talking about canon, taking every line of dialogue as absolute gospel forever and ever - Wally is the fastest being in the multiverse, Wally is faster than the Speed Force.

Heh. Me thinks you are being a tad facetious, Lee.

[Buried Alien]

In the early issues of Wally's solo series, he was "The Fastest Man Alive". Barry was slower because he was dead. Jay was slower because he was in limbo.

And those were actually some of my favorite chapters of Wally's run. I think the earliest issues of Wally's FLASH series are underrated.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[The Darknight Detective]

You said that whoever's in the driver's seat is the fastest. That wasn't true for about 100 Wally West comics and it wasn't even really true for about a hundred Barry comics. Wally, as Kid Flash, was just as fast as Barry for years until he got his powers nerfed for Teen Titans. Barry was just smarter and knew how to use his powers better. The entire gimmick was they had the exact same powers. At the time there wasn't any focus on who was "faster" because their powers were just both seen as super speed. "Being faster" only became a real significant part of the storytelling as a way to demonstrate Wally's inferiority and, subsequently, his growth.

Managerial fiat might be the case now, but it doesn't have to be and just as often wasn't. Being the the driver's seat doesn't have to determine anything.

The problem is, as Lee pointed out, is one line from a comic positive proof that Wally is the fastest (faster than the Speed Force itself?) When Wally gets the tagline "fastest man alive" in his future appearances, then I'll but it. For now, however, it's comparable to when Kara is deemed the strongest, then ignored later on (see also Barry and Wally on the TV show - the latter has been given lip service about being as fast or even faster than the former, but it never actually transpired in an actual episode).

[Lee]

Heh. Me thinks you are being a tad facetious, Lee.

I'm not. It's right there in his most recent appearance. Wally West is the fastest person in the multiverse and he can run faster than the Speed Force.

Lots of talk about Barry Allen being put above other speedsters in terms of powers/origin etc. But canonically Wally West can steal speed, lend speed, create energy constructs and run faster than the Speed Force.

[Buried Alien]

The problem is, as Lee pointed out, is one line from a comic positive proof that Wally is the fastest (faster than the Speed Force itself?) When Wally gets the tagline "fastest man alive" in his future appearances, then I'll but it. For now, however, it's comparable to when Kara is deemed the strongest, then ignored later on (see also Barry and Wally on the TV show - the latter has been given lip service about being as fast or even faster than the former, but it never actually transpired in an actual episode).

Interestingly, the CW SUPERGIRL TV show has been pretty good at maintaining the idea that Kara is stronger than Kal (at least in that universe). Recently, in the COIE TV crossover, the CW Earth-38 Superman fought the Earth-96 Superman (e.g. the Brandon Routh version, an extension of the Christopher Reeve version) to a draw. If that's the case, until a battle against the DCEU Superman or Tom Welling's Superman shows otherwise, Kara is the most powerful Kryptonian we've seen in live-action TV/film.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[The Darknight Detective]

Interestingly, the CW SUPERGIRL TV show has been pretty good at maintaining the idea that Kara is stronger than Kal (at least in that universe). Recently, in the COIE TV crossover, the CW Earth-38 Superman fought the Earth-96 Superman (e.g. the Brandon Routh version, an extension of the Christopher Reeve version). If that's the case, until a battle against the DCEU Superman or Tom Welling's Superman shows otherwise, Kara is the most powerful Kryptonian we've seen in live-action TV/film.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Ah, but would Kara win in an Arroverse Superman show? Most likely not, since she would be on his turf (the same would apply for a Wally West program, also). Which is why I keep pointing out why it's folly to pin this stuff down to an exact science or number.

[Rend20]

The problem is, as Lee pointed out, is one line from a comic positive proof that Wally is the fastest (faster than the Speed Force itself?) When Wally gets the tagline "fastest man alive" in his future appearances, then I'll but it.

But it isn't a one-off thing.

After Wally was declared the fastest in Flash War, Barry has made multiple mentions in his book about not being the fastest man alive anymore. Reclaiming the title is actually a goal of his. Now it's just a device so Barry can surpass him later in Flash Age, but Wally is firmly established as being the "Fastest Man Alive" at the moment. So there's substance behind the idea.

[Buried Alien]

But it isn't a one-off thing.

After Wally was declared the fastest in Flash War, Barry has made multiple mentions in his book about not being the fastest man alive anymore. Reclaiming the title is actually a goal of his. Now it's just a device so Barry can surpass him later in Flash Age, but Wally is firmly established as being the "Fastest Man Alive" at the moment. So there's substance behind the idea.

You know...that could be the seeds of a new dimension in their relationship. What if Barry and Wally begin a good-natured, friendly rivalry in which they occasionally try to top each other (all in good humor and comradeship), sometimes with comical results? The crown could pass between them periodically depending on the latest milestone/feat reached, and both would be keeping score.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[The Darknight Detective]

But it isn't a one-off thing.

After Wally was declared the fastest in Flash War, Barry has made multiple mentions in his book about not being the fastest man alive anymore. Reclaiming the title is actually a goal of his. Now it's just a device so Barry can surpass him later in Flash Age, but Wally is firmly established as being the "Fastest Man Alive" at the moment. So there's substance behind the idea.

Yeah, I admit I forgot. I guess I don't put much stock in it, because as you and Lee have pointed out, it will be a way to allow Barry to earn the title again in the future. I seriously doubt we will see any stories where Barry isn't the fastest in action, at any rate.

[The Darknight Detective]

You know...that could be the seeds of a new dimension in their relationship. What if Barry and Wally begin a good-natured, friendly rivalry in which they occasionally try to top each other (all in good humor and comradeship), sometimes with comical results? The crown could pass between them periodically depending on the latest milestone/feat reached, and both would be keeping score.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

That... actually would be brilliant, BA. The extremists in the Barry/Wally camps wouldn't like it, but the vast majority of us would enjoy it.

[Zero Hunter]

I think Barry being brought back more than anything ruined the Flash family. That and aging up Wally's kids and making one of them a speedster.

[Mr.B]

5G unruins it all history wise.

[Frontier]

You know...that could be the seeds of a new dimension in their relationship. What if Barry and Wally begin a good-natured, friendly rivalry in which they occasionally try to top each other (all in good humor and comradeship), sometimes with comical results? The crown could pass between them periodically depending on the latest milestone/feat reached, and both would be keeping score.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

That... actually would be brilliant, BA. The extremists in the Barry/Wally camps wouldn't like it, but the vast majority of us would enjoy it.

I think, with everything Wally has lost, he needs being the definitive Fastest Man Alive more then Barry does.

Barry seems humble enough that he'd accept and approve of Wally surpassing him and just call it a day. The only reason Barry would want to be "The Fastest Man Alive" is if it means he's fast enough to help more people. It's never been a status symbol with The Flashes.

[BohemiaDrinker]

And does it matter to Barry fans? Doesn't seem like it. Certainly doesn't matter to me.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

I know it doesn't matter to you B.A., but do you remember these boards at the time of Flash War?

Funny thing hre is, I don't really care about who's faster now either. I do care, however, about having the heroes stories respected: if not completely, in a good reasonable measure of the status that they occupy or occupied. That's why I dislike Geoff Johns origin so much. Jay ceases being the original. Wally never managed to reach any of his milestones. And on and on and on.

In doomsday clock, Jay garrick of earth - 2 had powers before speed force came to be and spilt the universe for the first time. So, jay of that universe is pre-speed force. For the people saying jay is under barry.

Yeah, about that: Geoff Johns speed Force origin stated that the speeed force, which was created by Barry, is fed by Barry and is Barry, spreads in all directions of space and time. The future, the past - prewsumably other Earths. The reason Jay was "touched" by it is his moral affinity to Barry. So, there. Yeah, I know how it sounds.....

There are certain segments of super-hero fandom who want their favourite characters to be the strongest, the smartest, the most powerful, the most impressive. The more powerful they are, the better of a character they are. I've never really understood this - I like it when characters have weaknesses and have to overcome challenges. To me, Batman is a better character when a gang of thugs can present a challenge to him, when he can get hurt.

I don't disagree with you here ( well, I do about Batman), but there's a difference between a character having weaknesses, and a character having a "cap", being that that cap is another character. Specially if that retroactivelly fucks things up.

In the early issues of Wally's solo series, he was "The Fastest Man Alive". Barry was slower because he was dead. Jay was slower because he was in limbo.

I "think" Superman was fastest by then, but this is irrelevant. Just thought I should mention.

Heh. Me thinks you are being a tad facetious, Lee.

I'm not. It's right there in his most recent appearance. Wally West is the fastest person in the multiverse and he can run faster than the Speed Force.

Lee is correct here. Wally has been the uncontested Fastest Man Alive for over 2 years now, this has been a plot point of several stories, and it has been shown every time both of them been side by side. Will it last? I don't care, as long as the Johns origin is forever burned with the holy fire of fanboy indignation!

You know...that could be the seeds of a new dimension in their relationship. What if Barry and Wally begin a good-natured, friendly rivalry in which they occasionally try to top each other (all in good humor and comradeship), sometimes with comical results? The crown could pass between them periodically depending on the latest milestone/feat reached, and both would be keeping score.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

You know that's just too logical for DC to actually do it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Geoff Johns' take on the Speed Force hasn't stuck either. .

Highest selling comic of last month. Conclusion to "continuity defining event". And there it is.

You're insisting that "one mention is too much", as though it ruins the entire reading experience going forward, but most readers aren't going to have read every single issue or memorised every single line of dialogue. It's been a non-issue in 99% of Flash comics since Flashpoint

It doesn't only ruin the experience going forward. It actually manages to ruin the experience going backwards. And I do think that one mention is too much, yes, because it means that that concept it's still a tool at their disposal.

[SNIP, because I don't read Spidey and have no idea what you're talking about here]

When we talk about these kinds of "fixes", they only fix things for continuity pedants like us, and have no tangible impact on the current stories being told one way or the other.

Not in this case: this particular retcon establishes that every character in the franchise that is not Barry is automatically lesser, always been, and always will be. It's the crappiest meta-comentary in all the history of Johns crappy meta-comentaries.

The funny thing is, 2018's Flash War firmly established that Wally is currently faster than Barry. Flash Forward #5 went even further by having Wally run faster than the Speed Force. What does this mean? How does this work? How does this fit with Geoff Johns' Speed Force in Flash: Rebirth?

With both these things in mind, I think it's kind of overblown when people complain about Wally being completely ruined, his power coming from Barry etc. Because if we're talking about canon, taking every line of dialogue as absolute gospel forever and ever - Wally is the fastest being in the multiverse, Wally is faster than the Speed Force.

First of all, God bless Lobdell for that bit of fan service, even if "faster than the speed force" is something that can have no practical meaning.

But I think you're really losing sight of my point here, so I'll repeat again:

What I said was that Flash Rebirth ruined the Flash Family (1), that the speed force retcon alone (though it's far from the only problem) ensured that they stayed ruined (2) and that the Flash Family would never be in a healthy shape again until that notion was completely negated.

Are you following me this far? (I'll assume you are.)

Good.

Now, what I also said is that the Flash Family would only be in a healthy state once this notion was thrown into a pool of toxic waste, set on fire, buried in concrete and have it's remains thrown in space. Because as long as it isn't, the very second some writer who thinks that's a good idea puts it there on print, there goes "Wally being faster than the speed force". There goes "Jay as the original". There goes golden boy Bart. And it goes away not only on the story being told, it goes alway on every story ever told. So it doesn't really matter what te speed force is, or how it works, but a healthy Flash Family has to have it firmly established that whatever the SF is, it's not that. And then everyone can be themselves.

[Buried Alien]

Probably the Speed Force itself needs to be retired. Ever since it was introduced in 1994, the FLASH franchise has been about little else than Speed Force, Speed Force, Speed Force. It's provided some good, some bad, and some ugly, but I think the concept has grown threadbare and redundant. There was a half-century of great FLASH stories before the Speed Force was ever introduced, and maybe it's time to revisit that approach after a quarter century of wall-to-wall Speed Force stories.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)