View Poll Results: Did Flashpoint ruined the Flash and the Flash Family ?

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  • Yes

    49 61.25%
  • No

    24 30.00%
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  1. #1
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    Default Did Flashpoint ruined the Flash and the Flash family ? Can it be undone ?

    A simple question and yeoin my opinion it’s similar to Marvel and how they took Spider-Man and OMD. Yet as fans of the Flash and his extended family: What do you think of it and why ?

  2. #2
    Mighty Member Chubistian's Avatar
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    I'm not particularly a fan of Flash and its lore, though I tend to like the characters when I read a Flash comicbook or they make an appearance in another title. I think Flashpoint didn't ruin the Flash and the Flash family, at least not forever (I think it's pretty hard to ruin something forever in mainstream comicbooks). I think Flash, as a title, isn't ruined, and I actually liked the first run in the New 52 era.

    As for the extended family, Rebirth has showed that what the New 52 did, can be easily erased. I don't read Young Justice, but it seems that the return of severed relationships by the reboot was undone in a quick way. I don't like what was done with Wally, but Flash Forward looks like the title that will bring back the West family and I think DC has plans to basically return the cast of the Flash family to how it was before the N52, though with the characters changed by some events in their lifes, like what happened with Wally at Sanctuary, which though I don't like, I don't think should be omitted as if it never happened.

    If DC changes courses and gives Wally the Hal Jordan treatment where with a retcon justifies his actions and makes it easier to return him as a hero, I wouldn't be against it but would judge the solution depending in the quality of the story
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  3. #3
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chubistian View Post
    I'm not particularly a fan of Flash and its lore, though I tend to like the characters when I read a Flash comicbook or they make an appearance in another title. I think Flashpoint didn't ruin the Flash and the Flash family, at least not forever (I think it's pretty hard to ruin something forever in mainstream comicbooks). I think Flash, as a title, isn't ruined, and I actually liked the first run in the New 52 era.

    As for the extended family, Rebirth has showed that what the New 52 did, can be easily erased. I don't read Young Justice, but it seems that the return of severed relationships by the reboot was undone in a quick way. I don't like what was done with Wally, but Flash Forward looks like the title that will bring back the West family and I think DC has plans to basically return the cast of the Flash family to how it was before the N52, though with the characters changed by some events in their lifes, like what happened with Wally at Sanctuary, which though I don't like, I don't think should be omitted as if it never happened.

    If DC changes courses and gives Wally the Hal Jordan treatment where with a retcon justifies his actions and makes it easier to return him as a hero, I wouldn't be against it but would judge the solution depending in the quality of the story
    Wally was top 3 among dc character in cbr polls before Flashpoint. Now he is 8.he fell and hard. Suffice to say new52, Flashpoint and even rebirth have all been disastrous for the character.

  4. #4
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    I voted "yes" but it wasn't really Flashpoint, it was Barry's return. Barry himself isn't responsible for this, but once he came back no one else in the family mattered.

    At one point we had Wally, Bart, Jay, Max, and Jesse, with regular guest appearances by other Flash dynasty members like XS and John Fox, and we had the West twins too, towards the end. That was a big family of heroes, each with their own distinct skills and talents and personalities. But once Barry returned, everyone faded into the background. I mean, once when the Flash would meet a Flash from the future, it was a descendant or someone; somebody new. When Barry post-return would meet a Flash from the future....it was just him.

    To a point, I get that. DC wanted to establish that Barry was back on top and didn't want the other guys challenging his popularity (and Wally and the others were very popular). So putting everyone else on time out and giving Barry the focus for a while, yeah that's okay, I get it.

    Then Flashpoint hit, and more importantly the reboot DC piggybacked off it, and the family either no longer existed or had no connections to the Flash, Allen or West families at all. It was a huge demotion for the entire franchise, I think.

    As for Barry, the dead mom thing sucks. It changes his motivations into something we've seen a million times, it's trite, it's base, and it's selfish. But I don't think it's done serious damage to the character, it's just made his origin a little bland.

    Flashpoint itself, in a vacuum, is a pretty fun story. Zoom breaks time, Barry tries to fix it but messes it up, and then has to fix his mistake on top of dealing with Zoom. Fun idea, fun story, and it's always cool to see alternate takes on familiar faces. And Barry isn't even really to blame for the New52 either, that was Pandora. So Flashpoint itself isn't so bad (and I love their version of Cyborg) but that whole era from Barry's rebirth to Flashpoint just set the entire franchise on a downward decline.
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  5. #5
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    I voted "yes" but it wasn't really Flashpoint, it was Barry's return. Barry himself isn't responsible for this, but once he came back no one else in the family mattered.
    Yes I agree. Also not the Barry character himself, but the way DC handled his return (compared to Hal's return).

  6. #6
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    I voted yes, but the real blame falls not on Flashpoint, but Flash: Rebirth.

    And it's not even Barry's return that is the problem, is how they chose to run with it.

    I don't think there will be a healthy Flash Family until every single piece of mythology and/or concepts introduced durting that series is addressed, retconned out, erased and openly mocked on the page. Ignoring it is not enough.
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  7. #7
    Incredible Member docmidnite's Avatar
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    Barry’s initial return didn’t ruin the Flash Family as everybody was still around with their histories intact. Flash: Rebirth also brought Max back from the dead and made Jess Jessie Quick again which was good.

    I did vote yes but people need to understand that it was stuff behind the scenes that ruined the Flash Family and Flashpoint.

    Originally Flashpoint’s ending wasn’t supposed to change anything. What happened was a former executive at WB decided that Vertigo, DC and Wildstorm were needlessly costing WB money that WB could use elsewhere, so he ordered that all three publishing houses be consolidated into only one/DC.

    So Johns was forced to change the ending of Flashpoint and come up with a way to merge the Vertigo and Wildstorm characters together with the DC characters and make things easier for those characters to shine by getting rid of the popular Golden Age characters. That’s when he came up with Pandora and had her merge all 3 universes universes together while Barry was running back to the present.

    That’s why Didio and Lee were demoted to co publishers (when they used to be the heads of DC and Wildstorm) and Diane Nelson was put in charge of everything.

    Diane Nelson then thought it was better to start everything over and Reboot than to try to fit in the Vertigo and Wildstorm characters into DC’s then current continuity (like Johns tried to do in Brightest Day) so they came up with The New52.

    So, in stony Flashpoint’s ending ruined the Flash Family but it was really what was going on behind the scenes that screwed them over.
    Last edited by docmidnite; 01-14-2020 at 01:03 PM.

  8. #8
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I voted "yes" but it wasn't really Flashpoint, it was Barry's return. Barry himself isn't responsible for this, but once he came back no one else in the family mattered.

    At one point we had Wally, Bart, Jay, Max, and Jesse, with regular guest appearances by other Flash dynasty members like XS and John Fox, and we had the West twins too, towards the end. That was a big family of heroes, each with their own distinct skills and talents and personalities. But once Barry returned, everyone faded into the background. I mean, once when the Flash would meet a Flash from the future, it was a descendant or someone; somebody new. When Barry post-return would meet a Flash from the future....it was just him.

    To a point, I get that. DC wanted to establish that Barry was back on top and didn't want the other guys challenging his popularity (and Wally and the others were very popular). So putting everyone else on time out and giving Barry the focus for a while, yeah that's okay, I get it.

    Then Flashpoint hit, and more importantly the reboot DC piggybacked off it, and the family either no longer existed or had no connections to the Flash, Allen or West families at all. It was a huge demotion for the entire franchise, I think.

    As for Barry, the dead mom thing sucks. It changes his motivations into something we've seen a million times, it's trite, it's base, and it's selfish. But I don't think it's done serious damage to the character, it's just made his origin a little bland.

    Flashpoint itself, in a vacuum, is a pretty fun story. Zoom breaks time, Barry tries to fix it but messes it up, and then has to fix his mistake on top of dealing with Zoom. Fun idea, fun story, and it's always cool to see alternate takes on familiar faces. And Barry isn't even really to blame for the New52 either, that was Pandora. So Flashpoint itself isn't so bad (and I love their version of Cyborg) but that whole era from Barry's rebirth to Flashpoint just set the entire franchise on a downward decline.
    ALL OF THIS.

    I will add that the dead mom thing actually ruins Barry's death in CoIE for me; it was the one person who, above all else, had no real reason to be there. He had a happy life, grew up reading comics, was even-tempered and overall just wanted to do the right thing. He was you, dear reader. And for all the destroyed planets, murdered parents and so forth, it was the everyman who took one for the team. Pretty powerful stuff. But hey, why be unique when you can join most the JLA in the Orphans club.

  9. #9
    Uncanny Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chubistian View Post
    I'm not particularly a fan of Flash and its lore, though I tend to like the characters when I read a Flash comicbook or they make an appearance in another title. I think Flashpoint didn't ruin the Flash and the Flash family, at least not forever (I think it's pretty hard to ruin something forever in mainstream comicbooks). I think Flash, as a title, isn't ruined, and I actually liked the first run in the New 52 era.

    As for the extended family, Rebirth has showed that what the New 52 did, can be easily erased. I don't read Young Justice, but it seems that the return of severed relationships by the reboot was undone in a quick way. I don't like what was done with Wally, but Flash Forward looks like the title that will bring back the West family and I think DC has plans to basically return the cast of the Flash family to how it was before the N52, though with the characters changed by some events in their lifes, like what happened with Wally at Sanctuary, which though I don't like, I don't think should be omitted as if it never happened.

    If DC changes courses and gives Wally the Hal Jordan treatment where with a retcon justifies his actions and makes it easier to return him as a hero, I wouldn't be against it but would judge the solution depending in the quality of the story
    Yeah, seems like the family may end up back as it was before Flashpoint soon, except with the addition of Avery Ho and the black Wallace West. Flash Forward brings back the kids, and then some partial Doomsday Clock synergisation happens, releasing everybody who's still trapped in the Speed Force (if they need anchors, like how Barry brought Wally back but couldn't do the same for Jay, then Impulse would be Max Mercury's anchor, and he in turn is Jay Garrick's. Jay then serves as Jessie Quick's. Bart apparently didn't need one).
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  10. #10
    Incredible Member docmidnite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chubistian View Post
    I'm not particularly a fan of Flash and its lore, though I tend to like the characters when I read a Flash comicbook or they make an appearance in another title. I think Flashpoint didn't ruin the Flash and the Flash family, at least not forever (I think it's pretty hard to ruin something forever in mainstream comicbooks). I think Flash, as a title, isn't ruined, and I actually liked the first run in the New 52 era.

    As for the extended family, Rebirth has showed that what the New 52 did, can be easily erased. I don't read Young Justice, but it seems that the return of severed relationships by the reboot was undone in a quick way. I don't like what was done with Wally, but Flash Forward looks like the title that will bring back the West family and I think DC has plans to basically return the cast of the Flash family to how it was before the N52, though with the characters changed by some events in their lifes, like what happened with Wally at Sanctuary, which though I don't like, I don't think should be omitted as if it never happened.

    If DC changes courses and gives Wally the Hal Jordan treatment where with a retcon justifies his actions and makes it easier to return him as a hero, I wouldn't be against it but would judge the solution depending in the quality of the story
    Green Lantern: Rebirth was not really a retcon because Green Lantern: Rebirth was GENIUS in its use of already established continuity.

    Johns first used the Moore/Gibbons’ “Tygers” prophecy from Tales of the GLC Annual #1 1984 (where the Guardians first erased their memories of all of the pain, suffering and emotional stress they endured after a thousand years of torture by the Empire of Tears during the war between Orderly Science and Chaotic Magic at the dawn of time) to explain why the Guardians had no memory of the Yellow Impurity that had been inside of the Central Power Battery for thousands of years (and the reason why the rings couldn’t work against anything yellow) also being the Parallax Entity (because after their first initial encounter and subsequent fight against the Parallax Entity the Guardians defeated it, imprisoned it in the Central Power Battery, and then erased their memory of it because their fight was the first time the Guardians had felt “fear” since their torture by the Empire of Tears)

    Then Johns used GLC #221-224* where Hal first entered the Central Power Battery to fight Sinestro from the dead and reveal that the Yellow Impurity that bonded with Sinestro's ghost inside of the Central Power Battery after his execution and that Hal had been exposed to in GLC #221-224 during their fight inside the original Central Power was also SENTIENT/the Parallax Entity.

    From there, Johns uses that encounter in GLC #221-224 to explain away any erratic behaviour and/or out of the blue changes to Hal between GLC #221-224 and Green Lantern: Rebirth as being infected by the Yellow Impurity/Parallax Entity.

    Yeah GL: Rebirth, brought back and exonerated Hal Jordan, but it also brought back Sinestro from the dead, made Guy Gardner a GL again and brought back the entire GLC with a HUGE BANG after 2 big time miniseries (Rebirth and Recharge) that were selling in the hundreds of thousands!
    The best thing to me, though is the effective use of continuity.

    *Also, GLC #221-224 was the same story that O'Neil used to plot his version of Emerald Twilight that Marz scripted. That's why Rebirth made perfect sense to us long time GL fans and why I don’t even think of it as a retcon.
    Last edited by docmidnite; 01-14-2020 at 02:23 PM.

  11. #11
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    Most of the Flash family have already returned. It's even been expanded with new speedsters.

  12. #12
    Mighty Member Chubistian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by docmidnite View Post
    Green Lantern: Rebirth was not really a retcon because Green Lantern: Rebirth was GENIUS in its use of already established continuity.

    Johns first used the Moore/Gibbons’ “Tygers” prophecy from Tales of the GLC Annual #1 1984 (where the Guardians first erased their memories of all of the pain, suffering and emotional stress they endured after a thousand years of torture by the Empire of Tears during the war between Orderly Science and Chaotic Magic at the dawn of time) to explain why the Guardians had no memory of the Yellow Impurity that had been inside of the Central Power Battery for thousands of years (and the reason why the rings couldn’t work against anything yellow) also being the Parallax Entity (because after their first initial encounter and subsequent fight against the Parallax Entity the Guardians defeated it, imprisoned it in the Central Power Battery, and then erased their memory of it because their fight was the first time the Guardians had felt “fear” since their torture by the Empire of Tears)

    Then Johns used GLC #221-224* where Hal first entered the Central Power Battery to fight Sinestro from the dead and reveal that the Yellow Impurity that bonded with Sinestro's ghost inside of the Central Power Battery after his execution and that Hal had been exposed to in GLC #221-224 during their fight inside the original Central Power was also SENTIENT/the Parallax Entity.

    From there, Johns uses that encounter in GLC #221-224 to explain away any erratic behaviour and/or out of the blue changes to Hal between GLC #221-224 and Green Lantern: Rebirth as being infected by the Yellow Impurity/Parallax Entity.

    Yeah GL: Rebirth, brought back and exonerated Hal Jordan, but it also brought back Sinestro from the dead, made Guy Gardner a GL again and brought back the entire GLC with a HUGE BANG after 2 big time miniseries (Rebirth and Recharge) that were selling in the hundreds of thousands!
    The best thing to me, though is the effective use of continuity.

    *Also, GLC #221-224 was the same story that O'Neil used to plot his version of Emerald Twilight that Marz scripted. That's why Rebirth made perfect sense to us long time GL fans and why I don’t even think of it as a retcon.
    I still think of it as a retcon, but we agree that it was genius in its use of previous continuity and one of the greatest things that have happened to the GL franchise
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by docmidnite View Post
    Green Lantern: Rebirth was not really a retcon because Green Lantern: Rebirth was GENIUS in its use of already established continuity.

    Johns first used the Moore/Gibbons’ “Tygers” prophecy from Tales of the GLC Annual #1 1984 (where the Guardians first erased their memories of all of the pain, suffering and emotional stress they endured after a thousand years of torture by the Empire of Tears during the war between Orderly Science and Chaotic Magic at the dawn of time) to explain why the Guardians had no memory of the Yellow Impurity that had been inside of the Central Power Battery for thousands of years (and the reason why the rings couldn’t work against anything yellow) also being the Parallax Entity (because after their first initial encounter and subsequent fight against the Parallax Entity the Guardians defeated it, imprisoned it in the Central Power Battery, and then erased their memory of it because their fight was the first time the Guardians had felt “fear” since their torture by the Empire of Tears)

    Then Johns used GLC #221-224* where Hal first entered the Central Power Battery to fight Sinestro from the dead and reveal that the Yellow Impurity that bonded with Sinestro's ghost inside of the Central Power Battery after his execution and that Hal had been exposed to in GLC #221-224 during their fight inside the original Central Power was also SENTIENT/the Parallax Entity.

    From there, Johns uses that encounter in GLC #221-224 to explain away any erratic behaviour and/or out of the blue changes to Hal between GLC #221-224 and Green Lantern: Rebirth as being infected by the Yellow Impurity/Parallax Entity.

    Yeah GL: Rebirth, brought back and exonerated Hal Jordan, but it also brought back Sinestro from the dead, made Guy Gardner a GL again and brought back the entire GLC with a HUGE BANG after 2 big time miniseries (Rebirth and Recharge) that were selling in the hundreds of thousands!
    The best thing to me, though is the effective use of continuity.

    *Also, GLC #221-224 was the same story that O'Neil used to plot his version of Emerald Twilight that Marz scripted. That's why Rebirth made perfect sense to us long time GL fans and why I don’t even think of it as a retcon.
    Agree with all of this.

    Barry's return ruined the Flash family for me. But Flashpoint didn't help either.

  14. #14
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    In the run prior to Final Crisis Barry was dead, Bart was dead, Max Mercury was gone and Jesse was Liberty Belle (no longer appearing in The Flash). The online fandom was very vocal about how much they hated Wally's kids and wanted the book to be about him, not his family.
    The title leading up to Barry's return was indeed less than good. Gods, remember how underwhelming Waid's "triumphant" return ended up being? Gha, such a let down. But that was just a bad run. It happens to everyone, you just put new talent on the books and quality increases again. Not a hurdle.

    Barry's return just threw a wrench into everything. And yeah, Bart and Jay were still around, but they no longer mattered and weren't used beyond a token appearance or so. Half the fun of Barry coming back was the idea of him getting to know people again and adjusting to the changes in the world since his death. And Rebirth did toy with that concept, we had a really solid conversation with Hal at the Flash museum, etc. But all the potential of Barry's return got thrown out the window so the story could focus on Barry exclusively. Somehow the whole thing just missed the forest for the trees.

    And that too was just a bad run. It could've been fixed as easily as Wally's last uninspired run could've been. But the reboot hit and "replace the writer" was no longer a viable, simple solution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    ALL OF THIS.

    I will add that the dead mom thing actually ruins Barry's death in CoIE for me; it was the one person who, above all else, had no real reason to be there. He had a happy life, grew up reading comics, was even-tempered and overall just wanted to do the right thing. He was you, dear reader. And for all the destroyed planets, murdered parents and so forth, it was the everyman who took one for the team. Pretty powerful stuff. But hey, why be unique when you can join most the JLA in the Orphans club.
    Yeah, all true. I think Barry lost a lot with that origin overhaul, but I don't think it completely ruined him or anything; it just made him less unique. Which is a funny thing to say about the guy who is supposed to be the Everyman of the League.
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  15. #15
    Extraordinary Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    Flashpoint was only temporary so I don't feel that it ruined the Flash Family. It was the New 52 that ruined it.
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