Did Flashpoint ruined the Flash and the Flash family ? Can it be undone ?

[Mr.B]

Yeah time for the forever force.

[BohemiaDrinker]

Probably the Speed Force itself needs to be retired. Ever since it was introduced in 1994, the FLASH franchise has been about little else than Speed Force, Speed Force, Speed Force. It's provided some good, some bad, and some ugly, but I think the concept has grown threadbare and redundant. There was a half-century of great FLASH stories before the Speed Force was ever introduced, and maybe it's time to revisit that approach after a quarter century of wall-to-wall Speed Force stories.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

I don't know about "retired"; it has some great uses. But it sure as hell could use a lot of toning down. It's predominance as a "theme", instead of what it was created for and supposed to be - unifying origin and explanation for speedsters - has overstayed it's welcome more than than the colored lanterns, and those are mostly gone already.

If it was up to me, we'd have a concise explanation on what it is (not Barry Allen! - Manapul's take is best, IMHO), what it can do, and leave at that. No one should enter the speed force, leave the speed force, "my speed force" shouldn't be reacting to "your speed force", etc.

I'm okay with creative uses for it, but it's became all things. This is surely detrimental.

[Lee]

Yeah, about that: Geoff Johns speed Force origin stated that the speeed force, which was created by Barry, is fed by Barry and is Barry, spreads in all directions of space and time. The future, the past - prewsumably other Earths. The reason Jay was "touched" by it is his moral affinity to Barry. So, there. Yeah, I know how it sounds.....

manwhohaseverything is right about this. Doomsday Clock presents the idea that as soon as the Speed Force came into existence, the Metaverse shifted and the multiverse was created. In theory, the Earth-2 that resulted from that split could have a Speed Force, but the Golden Age Metaverse that existed before the Silver Age had no Speed Force. Jay Garrick was fast because he fell asleep with the kettle on.

Highest selling comic of last month. Conclusion to "continuity defining event". And there it is.

It didn't have all the details about Barry generating the Speed Force. It only said the Speed Force was born when lightning struck Barry Allen. Which in itself was never really "Barry created the Speed Force". Are we really supposed to think that it was an ordinary bolt of lightning, hitting an ordinary human and some chemicals, that created an ell-encompassing force of nature? One that we now know is one of four forces, and comes from beyond the Force Barrier? That lightning, whatever it was, is what did it.

It doesn't only ruin the experience going forward. It actually manages to ruin the experience going backwards.

I don't think it ruins Waid's Flash run. Those stories still exist as originally printed. They can be enjoyed on their own merits, without being concerned about other stories that came decades later. I don't think Waid's Flash comics are suddenly crap now.

Not in this case: this particular retcon establishes that every character in the franchise that is not Barry is automatically lesser, always been, and always will be.

Not Wally. Barry generates the Speed Force, but Wally is faster than the Speed Force. So Wally is clearly the most powerful one again, just as he was throughout Waid's run.

What I said was that Flash Rebirth ruined the Flash Family (1), that the speed force retcon alone (though it's far from the only problem) ensured that they stayed ruined (2) and that the Flash Family would never be in a healthy shape again until that notion was completely negated.

Are you following me this far? (I'll assume you are.)

Good.

Now, what I also said is that the Flash Family would only be in a healthy state once this notion was thrown into a pool of toxic waste, set on fire, buried in concrete and have it's remains thrown in space. Because as long as it isn't, the very second some writer who thinks that's a good idea puts it there on print, there goes "Wally being faster than the speed force". There goes "Jay as the original". There goes golden boy Bart. And it goes away not only on the story being told, it goes alway on every story ever told. So it doesn't really matter what te speed force is, or how it works, but a healthy Flash Family has to have it firmly established that whatever the SF is, it's not that. And then everyone can be themselves.

This is comics. Bruce Wayne once had a long lost criminally insane older brother. It was dumb. It should never have been part of the lore. The hundreds of Batman comics that followed simply ignored it. You can still pick up a Batman comic from 1981 and enjoy it in on its own merits. After all the DC reboots, it was erased from continuity. Gone forever! Forever and ever! Forever! For good! Gone! Until Scott Snyder brought the idea back, that maybe this new villain is Bruce Wayne's long lost criminally insane brother.

In DC Comics, when there's a piece of continuity a writer doesn't like, they can:

*Use it anyway
*Ignore it
*Explain it away
*Contradict it without explanation

On the flip side, a later writer can bring back a piece of continuity that has previously been retconned out.

So it's pointless worrying about which parts of comic book continuity a writer might use 5, 17, 23, 67 years from now. As long as stories continue to be written, you're never going to be safe from them potentially presenting ideas you don't like. All you can do is enjoy or not enjoy each story or run on its own merits.

The current Flash writer is ignoring/contradicting Geoff Johns' take on the Speed Force, he doesn't care for it. Maybe he'll end up explaining it away when he gets to the "four forces" story he's been building up. Who knows.

[married guy]

I think as it was originally presented, the Speed Force worked just fine.
It was the source of speedsters' powers, and also served as a Heaven/Valhalla for the speedsters who had fallen before. (Both good and evil)
Once it became just another destination anyone could come & go from without consequences it became the ultimate mcguffin.

[Frontier]

So the general gist I'm getting is "Flash Rebirth wasn't that good a story and we're better off ignoring or pretending it didn't happen."

[BohemiaDrinker]

[QUOTE=BohemiaDrinker;4795152]

manwhohaseverything is right about this. Doomsday Clock presents the idea that as soon as the Speed Force came into existence, the Metaverse shifted and the multiverse was created. In theory, the Earth-2 that resulted from that split could have a Speed Force, but the Golden Age Metaverse that existed before the Silver Age had no Speed Force. Jay Garrick was fast because he fell asleep with the kettle on.

In theory, yes. But that's only valid for OG Earth . 2 JAy. Prime Earth Jay, no.

It didn't have all the details about Barry generating the Speed Force. It only said the Speed Force was born when lightning struck Barry Allen. Which in itself was never really "Barry created the Speed Force". Are we really supposed to think that it was an ordinary bolt of lightning, hitting an ordinary human and some chemicals, that created an ell-encompassing force of nature? One that we now know is one of four forces, and comes from beyond the Force Barrier? That lightning, whatever it was, is what did it.

Why the hell does it have to be created "then"?

I don't think it ruins Waid's Flash run. Those stories still exist as originally printed. They can be enjoyed on their own merits, without being concerned about other stories that came decades later. I don't think Waid's Flash comics are suddenly crap now.

It turns things into a lie, dude. It's as simple as that.

Not Wally. Barry generates the Speed Force, but Wally is faster than the Speed Force. So Wally is clearly the most powerful one again, just as he was throughout Waid's run.

Does Barry generate the Speed Force or not? You kept telling me he doesn't. I believe that he doesn't (until he does again). That has never been my point here.

This is comics. Bruce Wayne once had a long lost criminally insane older brother. It was dumb. It should never have been part of the lore. The hundreds of Batman comics that followed simply ignored it. You can still pick up a Batman comic from 1981 and enjoy it in on its own merits. After all the DC reboots, it was erased from continuity. Gone forever! Forever and ever! Forever! For good! Gone! Until Scott Snyder brought the idea back, that maybe this new villain is Bruce Wayne's long lost criminally insane brother.

In DC Comics, when there's a piece of continuity a writer doesn't like, they can:

*Use it anyway
*Ignore it
*Explain it away
*Contradict it without explanation

On the flip side, a later writer can bring back a piece of continuity that has previously been retconned out.

So it's pointless worrying about which parts of comic book continuity a writer might use 5, 17, 23, 67 years from now. As long as stories continue to be written, you're never going to be safe from them potentially presenting ideas you don't like. All you can do is enjoy or not enjoy each story or run on its own merits.

A better example would be "Batman used to kill people". That wasn't just ignored, it was deemed as an absurd notion. It's all I ask.

The current Flash writer is ignoring/contradicting Geoff Johns' take on the Speed Force, he doesn't care for it. Maybe he'll end up explaining it away when he gets to the "four forces" story he's been building up. Who knows.

Maybe. Hopefully.

[Kyer]

I think as it was originally presented, the Speed Force worked just fine.
It was the source of speedsters' powers, and also served as a Heaven/Valhalla for the speedsters who had fallen before. (Both good and evil)
Once it became just another destination anyone could come & go from without consequences it became the ultimate mcguffin.

This.

I loved the Speed Force when Waid first created it. Then suddenly everyone and their dog was racing around the accelerated aether and just... dissipated the wonder.
Still highly enjoying the Mark Waid reprints though.
I find it easier to ignore 'modern' shenanigans than to let go of what I loved in the 1990's.

[manwhohaseverything]

In theory, yes. But that's only valid for OG Earth . 2 JAy. Prime Earth Jay, no.

Well, if we see jay garrick of two worlds running contest. Jay's abilities might shift. I think jay being someone who can tap into speed force but isn't tied to it would be awesome.I mean, even superman did kinda absord barry's speed force energy in metal to go to dark multiverse. So, jay being like that be better. Jay's speed can be caused by metagene, work and pure determination.

[Lee]

It turns things into a lie, dude. It's as simple as that.

It doesn't turn Mark Waid's Flash run into bad comics. They can still be read and enjoyed and recommended on their own merits, just as the original Highlander film can be enjoyed on its own merits, even if the sequels undo the ending and introduce some very incongruous backstory.

Does Barry generate the Speed Force or not? You kept telling me he doesn't. I believe that he doesn't (until he does again). That has never been my point here.

You've repeatedly said that the Flash Family was ruined, and is currently ruined, and Avery sucks, and Jay Garrick sucks, and Wally West sucks because of the ideas that the Speed Force originated with Barry and he generates it, even though it hasn't been brought up in 99% of Flash comics from the past decade. If we're going by that premise, then we must also acknowledge that Wally West has now been said to move faster than the Speed Force.

I think jay being someone who can tap into speed force but isn't tied to it would be awesome.I mean, even superman did kinda absord barry's speed force energy in metal to go to dark multiverse. So, jay being like that be better. Jay's speed can be caused by metagene, work and pure determination.

That's exactly what happened in 2006's Flash: The Fastest Man Alive. His connection to the Speed Force was gone, but Jay Garrick was still a speedster because he was a metahuman.

[BohemiaDrinker]

It doesn't turn Mark Waid's Flash run into bad comics. They can still be read and enjoyed and recommended on their own merits, just as the original Highlander film can be enjoyed on its own merits, even if the sequels undo the ending and introduce some very incongruous backstory.

Nah, i don`t think so.

You've repeatedly said that the Flash Family was ruined, and is currently ruined, and Avery sucks, and Jay Garrick sucks, and Wally West sucks because of the ideas that the Speed Force originated with Barry and he generates it, even though it hasn't been brought up in 99% of Flash comics from the past decade. If we're going by that premise, then we must also acknowledge that Wally West has now been said to move faster than the Speed Force.

I actually haven't; I suggest you go back and re-read my posts.

[Lee]

Nah, i don`t think so.

What would happen if someone read Flash: Terminal Velocity? Someone who's never even heard of Flash: Rebirth.

[BohemiaDrinker]

What would happen if someone read Flash: Terminal Velocity? Someone who's never even heard of Flash: Rebirth.

This person would probably like it (iut's really good, after all!). Ands then they'd probably try to follow Wally, either now or looking up the most important Flash stories. And then...

[Lee]

This person would probably like it (iut's really good, after all!).

Exactly. It still exists. It can still be enjoyed. It's not become a bad comic.

[Dred]

I imagine they'd barely understand what's going on without some context as comics are created to be read in a serialized format with random arcs often being bad places to pick up instead of designated starting points.

[manwhohaseverything]

That's exactly what happened in 2006's Flash: The Fastest Man Alive. His connection to the Speed Force was gone, but Jay Garrick was still a speedster because he was a metahuman.

Not like that. I want jay to be an outsider to speedforce. Sort off like might guy or lee if you watch naruto. I would want him to be able to use a power greater than the speed force itself as his ultimate powerup. But, it would cause massive damage to him and he might even get paralysed as a trad of. He would have these limiters to how much he can stress his body. He would get rid of these limiters to go beast.