View Poll Results: Did Flashpoint ruined the Flash and the Flash Family ?

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  1. #31
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    Flashpoint and the return of Barry Allen in general made a simple thing more complicated. Unlike Hal Jordan, who had a death and replacement that was controversial, their really wasn’t much of a call to bring Barry Allen back for much of the 90’s. In fact the Flash franchise actually grew and matured with Wally in ways that it never did under Barry. That’s why their seems to be way more disjointed unease with Barry then with Hal. Their is a slight undercurrent of “was all this necessary?” With the Flash that doesn’t exist with the Green Lantern Franchise.

    Another reason why one revamp seems better then the other. The Kyle Rayner revamp shrunk the Green Lantern franchise. Killed off several main characters, and essentially turned DC’s most prominent cosmic character into a street level superhero. The Flash revamp on the other hand actually expanded the franchise. Key elements like the speed force were added, and the Rogue’s were further developed.
    Last edited by mathew101281; 01-15-2020 at 01:59 PM.

  2. #32
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    Flashpoint and the return of Barry Allen in general made a simple thing more complicated. Unlike Hal Jordan, who had a death and replacement that was controversial, their really wasn’t much of a call to bring Barry Allen back for much of the 90’s. In fact the Flash franchise actually grew and matured with Wally in ways that it never did under Barry. That’s why their seems to be way more disjointed unease with Barry then with Hal. Their is a slight undercurrent of “was all this necessary?” With the Flash that doesn’t exist with the Green Lantern Franchise.

    Another reason why one revamp seems better then the other. The Kyle Rayner revamp shrunk the Green Lantern franchise. Killed off several main characters, and essentially turned DC’s most prominent cosmic character into a street level superhero. The Flash revamp on the other hand actually expanded the franchise. Key elements like the speed force were added, and the Rogue’s were further developed.
    Those are good points. I don't like Hal Jordan, but the core concept of what "Green Lantern" was was sort of broken until his return. You didn't have to bring him back to fix it, but doping so sure made more eyes turn that that way.

    With the Flash, the concept of the franchise was not only alive and well but had been expanded: by feeling that they needed to somehow justify Barry's return, they sort of broke it.
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  3. #33
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    In the run prior to Final Crisis Barry was dead, Bart was dead, Max Mercury was gone and Jesse was Liberty Belle (no longer appearing in The Flash). The online fandom was very vocal about how much they hated Wally's kids and wanted the book to be about him, not his family.
    The title leading up to Barry's return was indeed less than good. Gods, remember how underwhelming Waid's "triumphant" return ended up being? Gha, such a let down. But that was just a bad run. It happens to everyone, you just put new talent on the books and quality increases again. Not a hurdle.

    Barry's return just threw a wrench into everything. And yeah, Bart and Jay were still around, but they no longer mattered and weren't used beyond a token appearance or so. Half the fun of Barry coming back was the idea of him getting to know people again and adjusting to the changes in the world since his death. And Rebirth did toy with that concept, we had a really solid conversation with Hal at the Flash museum, etc. But all the potential of Barry's return got thrown out the window so the story could focus on Barry exclusively. Somehow the whole thing just missed the forest for the trees.

    And that too was just a bad run. It could've been fixed as easily as Wally's last uninspired run could've been. But the reboot hit and "replace the writer" was no longer a viable, simple solution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    ALL OF THIS.

    I will add that the dead mom thing actually ruins Barry's death in CoIE for me; it was the one person who, above all else, had no real reason to be there. He had a happy life, grew up reading comics, was even-tempered and overall just wanted to do the right thing. He was you, dear reader. And for all the destroyed planets, murdered parents and so forth, it was the everyman who took one for the team. Pretty powerful stuff. But hey, why be unique when you can join most the JLA in the Orphans club.
    Yeah, all true. I think Barry lost a lot with that origin overhaul, but I don't think it completely ruined him or anything; it just made him less unique. Which is a funny thing to say about the guy who is supposed to be the Everyman of the League.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    With absolutely no interaction among themselves, aside from Blackest Night, a Bart focused issue on Road to Flashpoint and that horrible, horrible intervention issue. Further, beside Wally being sideline, we've never saw either Iris Impulse or Max again doing anything, really.
    They only had 12 issues with that status quo before the reboot. But there was Flash Family presence in Rebirth, Blackest Night, Secret Files, Road to Flashpoint and Kid Flash Lost. Plus Jay, Bart and Jesse as regulars in team books.

    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    Which is exactly the problem being discussed here, no?
    Not when people are saying Flash: Rebirth, one of the biggest Flash Family stories ever, ruined the Flash Family. In quick succession we had the return of Barry, the return of Bart, the return of Max Mercury, the return of Jesse Quick, Irey West becoming a speedster. Flash: Rebirth re-established the Flash Family. They just didn't get a chance to do much with it, because there were only 12 regular issues before the whole DC Universe got rebooted.

    But for that brief period of time there was more of a Flash Family than there was during Bart's run and Wally's second run.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    They only had 12 issues with that status quo before the reboot. But there was Flash Family presence in Rebirth, Blackest Night, Secret Files, Road to Flashpoint and Kid Flash Lost. Plus Jay, Bart and Jesse as regulars in team books.
    And there goes problem number 1. Original plan (and promise) as for Bart to have a book and Wally to have back-ups and or story from issue 1. And for these characters to interact. That never happened, and the reason they only had 12 issues to deal with it is that they cancelled the other stuff that would deal with it.

    Not when people are saying Flash: Rebirth, one of the biggest Flash Family stories ever, ruined the Flash Family.
    It did. It doesn't matter how "big" it was, since it was crap. It established Wally as a wannabe and a has-been at the same time (!!!!), his kids as toddlers, made Jay Muthafucking Garrick a Barry derivative and Bart a whiney kid. Doesn't matter that everyone was "there", because everyone was being shat on. And all the post-Crisis has to show for it is 12 issues of Barry Allen being sad (with some beautiful Manapul art, at least)

    The stuff that was established in Flash: Rebirth made damn well sure that there was a cap on how much any one character was allowed to shine, and they made sure that that cap was really, really low.

    In quick succession we had the return of Barry
    "My Mommy is dead"

    the return of Bart
    "I lost my personality, but here, listen to some sentences taken directly out of the internet"

    the return of Max Mercury
    "Listen son, here's some exposition about why Barry Allen is the greatest, has always been the greatest, will always be the greatest, and some shenningan mechanics why he can't be surpassed, and never will be, or has been! Got that? Good, you will never see me again!"

    the return of Jesse Quick
    That was indeed nice. I wish her fashion sense had returned as well...

    Irey West becoming a speedster.
    And here's a list of her top ten incredible adventures:












    Rebirth re-established the Flash Family.
    As inferior versions, empowered by "Barry Allen's sense of justice", never to reunite or, in some cases, show their faces again before being erased. And if they somehow managed to re-appear, they sure as hell wouldn't be at their peak, because we would never forget that they derive from the engine, creator and speed-Force himself man.

    Yeah, to me that pretty much says "ruined".

    They just didn't get a chance to do much with it, because there were only 12 regular issues before the whole DC Universe got rebooted.
    Oh no, they had the chance. They had a promised back-up feature and a promised book and a second promised book that never materialized and a handful of line-wide events where not only all these characters should have appeared and interacted, but it would made sense for them to do so. They decided not to take that chance, and they decided to actively work toward that never happening, and we all know why.

    But for that brief period of time there was more of a Flash Family than there was during Bart's run and Wally's second run.
    Hardly. I've seen Jay, Joan and Iris having active roles in Bart's life in his title. I've seen Wally interacting with both his kids and Bart, and Barry remarring Iris and Jay discovering shit in the past and running alongside Wally in the present in Wally's second run. Not to mention, there are a total of 3 more issues of Iris being a speedster before she became Impulse than after it. The post-Rebirth Flash book, OTOH, we only have these characters reunite to point fingers at Barry and ask why the hell is it that he sucks so much now (issue 11).

    So yeah, Flash: Rebirth ruined the Flash Family. It basically went "Here, everyone is back, but everyone sucks now", created a status quo that reaffirmed that as strongly as possible, and it's fallout eventually led all the characters to non-existence or irrelevance.
    Last edited by BohemiaDrinker; 01-15-2020 at 08:26 PM.
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  6. #36
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    The Flash family was ruined by Didio stepping into power. It happened when he moved Johns off The Flash and started screwing with the title in 2005, after he came into his position in 2004. Everything from that point on has his fingerprints on it. The title was at one of its heights before being put on hold 3 issues after Johns' run was ended, then thrown into nonsense with Infinite Crisis for no reason, then dicked around with for years ongoing until, gasp, we need to make a big move to save the failing Flash franchise! Better bring back Barry!

    Long form sabotage by a man who barely understood anything that made The Flash good. I doubt it was even intentional at first, he probably just believed that the name "The Flash" would always sell and he could flavor it with his personal ideas. Like bringing in the 90s TV show writers for no good reason.

    Rebirth's sins are apparent. It brings back Max, but concludes his entire character premise on a wet fart. It brings back Jesse but she does nothing in the comic and after the comic. It makes Iris Impulse but she does nothing in and after the comic. It makes Jay derivative of Barry, which is preposterous. And it very, very obviously sidelines Wally for Barry -- this was obvious and intentional even if the rest might not quite have been, though transparent to most reading it.
    Last edited by Dred; 01-15-2020 at 05:02 PM.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    The Flash family was ruined by Didio stepping into power. It happened when he moved Johns off The Flash and started screwing with the title in 2005, after he came into his position in 2004. Everything from that point on has his fingerprints on it. The title was at one of its heights before being put on hold 3 issues after Johns' run was ended, then thrown into nonsense with Infinite Crisis for no reason, then dicked around with for years ongoing until, gasp, we need to make a big move to save the failing Flash franchise! Better bring back Barry!

    Long form sabotage by a man who barely understood anything that made The Flash good. I doubt it was even intentional at first, he probably just believed that the name "The Flash" would always sell and he could flavor it with his personal ideas. Like bringing in the 90s TV show writers for no good reason.

    Rebirth's sins are apparent. It brings back Max, but concludes his entire character premise on a wet fart. It brings back Jesse but she does nothing in the comic and after the comic. It makes Iris Impulse but she does nothing in and after the comic. It makes Jay derivative of Barry, which is preposterous. And it very, very obviously sidelines Wally for Barry -- this was obvious and intentional even if the rest might not quite have been, though transparent to most reading it.
    I don't disagree.

    But going by the premise of the thread, don't you think that the Flash Family was easily fixable before Rebirth and, after it, not so much? Because that's pretty much my point. Te speed force retcon alone fucks everything.
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

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  8. #38
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    I think there's a lot of hyperbole here.

    I think there's also a big difference between "Flash: Rebirth ruined X" and "X was underutilised after Flash: Rebirth, due to a linewide continuity reboot after 12 regular issues".

    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    Hardly. I've seen Jay, Joan and Iris having active roles in Bart's life in his title. I've seen Wally interacting with both his kids and Bart, and Barry remarring Iris and Jay discovering shit in the past and running alongside Wally in the present in Wally's second run. Not to mention, there are a total of 3 more issues of Iris being a speedster before she became Impulse than after it.
    How are we defining Flash Family here?

    If we're including Joan Garrick and Iris, then that changes the discussion. It's still a hell of a stretch to suggest that The Flash: The Fastest Man Alive had more Flash Family content than Flash: Rebirth.

    What is the Flash Family? When did it begin? Has it always been good? Has it ever had ups and downs?

  9. #39
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    I think there's a lot of hyperbole here.

    I think there's also a big difference between "Flash: Rebirth ruined X" and "X was underutilised after Flash: Rebirth, due to a linewide continuity reboot after 12 regular issues".
    Not for me, there isn't. If anything, I'm holding back: I believe that status quo set by Flash Rebirth, particularly but not solely because of the speed force retcon, ruins these characters beyond repair, and they are only fixable by it and other crappy elements to the mythology being clearly and on page negated, retconned out, spat on, exorcized with holy water, then fire, then holy water again, followed by all the characters thinking at least once per issue "how could we believe such nonsense?" for the next 25 years.

    How are we defining Flash Family here?

    If we're including Joan Garrick and Iris, then that changes the discussion. It's still a hell of a stretch to suggest that The Flash: The Fastest Man Alive had more Flash Family content than Flash: Rebirth.

    What is the Flash Family? When did it begin? Has it always been good? Has it ever had ups and downs?
    Granted, I tend to include the "Flash Wives club". (It's a thing. It exists. It's right there on Final Crisis, the one comic where Barry return and it was good). But I can completely understand if that is pushing too far for some.

    However, for a the Flash Family to be the Flash Family I'd say that there should be a comunal sense among these characters, that goes from having the odd adventure to actually having some sort of relationship. This was excised from the franchise right after Flash: Rebirth and only made a timid Return post-DCU Rebirth.

    As for when it started? I'd say ROBA. has it always been good? Pre-Didio, mostly, then he started dismantling it.

    But you seem to confuse the fact that the characters exist during Flash-Rebirth as a "good thing". I don't, because I truly and totally believe they were better of dead than being part of that shit-show. It's bad story, filled with terrible concepts that make every single character in it (yes, Barry included) leave in much, much worst shape then when they arrived.
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

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  10. #40
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    However, for a the Flash Family to be the Flash Family I'd say that there should be a comunal sense among these characters, that goes from having the odd adventure to actually having some sort of relationship. This was excised from the franchise right after Flash: Rebirth and only made a timid Return post-DCU Rebirth.
    That's one of the big sticking points for me. It's not enough to just have a bunch of legacy speedsters out there in the DCU, each doing their own thing. That's not a family. That's how the Super kids usually act, but the Flash family actually hung out with each other on a regular basis. And not just during Crisis events, but out of costume, in the Flash title. They'd have dinner. No world ending threat, just Joan's meatloaf.

    It's not enough to have Bart in Titans or YJ, Jesse or Jay in JSA, and everyone else in other books or limbo. They have to actually interact with each other, be each other's supporting cast, etc. I totally understand the need to put Barry first when he came back. I get that. But all the plans they had for other Flash books never happened, what we actually got on the page was largely worthless unless you just wanted to see Barry built up, and the reboot is a piss poor excuse. This is fiction; there are no limits, they had a five year timeline, and if all the Bat kids could not only still exist in the New52 but hang out in the cave together, then all the Flashes could too (even Jay, had DC decided to allow him some earth jumping).

    Edit: The post I quoted was by Drinker, not Lee. Not sure how that happened.
    Last edited by Ascended; 01-15-2020 at 07:56 PM.
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  11. #41
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Edit: The post I quoted was by Drinker, not Lee. Not sure how that happened.
    Something I do when I break up quotes screws up with CBR, and I don't know what it is.

    You should see the mess I made in Wally West Appreciation 2019: after me everyone else quoted the wrong person for about ten pages. XD
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  12. #42
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    I always suspected you were the reason we can't have nice things.
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  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I always suspected you were the reason we can't have nice things.
    Sorry! \_(ツ)_/
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  14. #44
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    Can it be undone?
    Of course!! This is comic books!
    It just takes a writer and editor with enough interest and dedication to make it happen.
    That and a total change of management, but still...
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  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    Not for me, there isn't. If anything, I'm holding back: I believe that status quo set by Flash Rebirth, particularly but not solely because of the speed force retcon, ruins these characters beyond repair, and they are only fixable by it and other crappy elements to the mythology being clearly and on page negated, retconned out, spat on, exorcized with holy water, then fire, then holy water again, followed by all the characters thinking at least once per issue "how could we believe such nonsense?" for the next 25 years.
    You don't think this is hyperbole?

    You're being very fixated on a tiny piece of the lore that has only been referenced once in the past decade, has been ignored by all other writers, and has had no impact on the characterisation and stories of these characters.

    It's like arguing that Mopee ruined The Flash forever.

    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    As for when it started? I'd say ROBA. has it always been good? Pre-Didio, mostly, then he started dismantling it.
    Is it fair to say that the Flash Family only existed during Mark Waid's run?

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