View Poll Results: Did Flashpoint ruined the Flash and the Flash Family ?

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  • Yes

    43 62.32%
  • No

    21 30.43%
  • Maybe

    5 7.25%
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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    Nope. I really truly deeply believe that Flash: Rebirth is by far the worst thing ever done to these characters in all of their existence. There are only two comics I hate - because they missed the point by so much - and this is one of them.

    Make no mistake, I'm not exaggerating in any way. It's the absolute worst.
    You've made that clear. I disagree.

    I think Heroes in Crisis was worse for Wally West. I think The Trial of Kid Flash and The Fastest Man Alive were worse for Bart. I think the New 52 costume was worse for Jay Garrick. I think being a dangling plot thread for years was worse for Max Mercury.

    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    There's a more than one narration/flashback in Willianson's run, the entire mechanic of Flashpoint is dependant on it,
    In a podcast interview, Williamson indicated that he didn't take it too seriously - "would you believe Thawne?".

    Maybe Geoff Johns had big plans for his Speed Force origin concept, but since then we've had 140+ issues where it hasn't factored into anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    and if read up just a little bit in what the original plan for Flashpoint was... oh boy!
    What plan are you referring to?

    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    With what he is allowed to touch, sure. There's Wallace and Avery and once every blue moon there's Wally. But I don't know why you mentioned this here, no one is bad mouthing Williamson.
    The thread is about if the Flash Family was ruined and if it can be fixed. I think it's very relevant that Joshua Williamson has written several Flash Family stories over the past few years. The two most recent story arcs have been Flash Family team-ups. The next story arc promises to be an even bigger Flash Family team-up.

    The latest issue of Flash Forward had Wally and his kids running together. The most recent Justice League story arc had a mini team-up with Barry and Jay. That's a lot of Flash Family team-ups being published simultaneously.

  2. #62
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    You've made that clear. I disagree.
    Okay!

    I think Heroes in Crisis was worse for Wally West. I think The Trial of Kid Flash and The Fastest Man Alive were worse for Bart. I think the New 52 costume was worse for Jay Garrick. I think being a dangling plot thread for years was worse for Max Mercury.
    You can make a case about each and every one of these stories being worst for the characters individually. But HiC aside, it's just mediocre to bad writing that changes very little about the characters and is immediately fixable. And none of them fucked with the characters as a group, as Flash Rebirth did.

    That said, there's nothing inherently wrong with with Nu52 Jay (not a great design, but not a character destroying one either), I much prefer "dangling plot thread Max" than "whole reason of existing is Barry" Max and, by the time "Trial of Kid Flash" came, it was already kind of agreed among people who care enough that that thing was not Bart. (I know Scott Lobdell has been visiting the boards of latre, so if you read this, sorry Scott, but I just can't deal with Bar-tor).

    In a podcast interview, Williamson indicated that he didn't take it too seriously - "would you believe Thawne?".
    Thawne, I wouldn't.

    Otoh, Max, who gave the whole page of exposition about what the Speed Force was in Flash: Rebirth, I would.

    And it was not just Willianson, this thing was mentioned in DClock less than a month ago. As long as it isn't repudiated, these poor excuse of a concept will be haunting us every time a writer wants to make Barry their special boy. Seriously, Waid had already weighed his hand too much with the whole "Wally mainlines the Speed Force" thing, but Johns just screwed with everything.

    Maybe Geoff Johns had big plans for his Speed Force origin concept, but since then we've had 140+ issues where it hasn't factored into anything.
    It factored enough, as it was the justification for Flashpoint. Of course, the Flash family was discarded after it, so it made less damage than it could.

    What plan are you referring to?
    Oh, everyone but Barry would have their powers screwed with because some shenannigans that happened to Barry. Couple that with the comments by Dan Didio about how after Rebirth would see a Wally "akin to Mike Baron's days", and make your conclusion.

    The thread is about if the Flash Family was ruined and if it can be fixed. I think it's very relevant that Joshua Williamson has written several Flash Family stories over the past few years. The two most recent story arcs have been Flash Family team-ups. The next story arc promises to be an even bigger Flash Family team-up.
    Okay, but I said myself that the concept had made a timid return after DCU: Rebirth. We're not disagreeing here, so I didn't see the point of it being brought up.

    The latest issue of Flash Forward had Wally and his kids running together. The most recent Justice League story arc had a mini team-up with Barry and Jay. That's a lot of Flash Family team-ups being published simultaneously.
    Well, Flash Forward is specifically designed to "fix" things (as much as DC will allow it, at least), and the same is true for the JSA return back in JL.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    It factored enough, as it was the justification for Flashpoint. Of course, the Flash family was discarded after it, so it made less damage than it could.
    Flashpoint was almost a decade ago, and would have been told with or without the new Speed Force origin (as the animated movie and TV series did). Geoff Johns' Speed Force origin hasn't factored into the 140+ Flash comics since.

    I get that you don't like it, but you're overstating its presence.

    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    Oh, everyone but Barry would have their powers screwed with because some shenannigans that happened to Barry. Couple that with the comments by Dan Didio about how after Rebirth would see a Wally "akin to Mike Baron's days", and make your conclusion.
    Where did this information come from? Is it archived anywhere?

  4. #64
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Flashpoint was almost a decade ago, and would have been told with or without the new Speed Force origin (as the animated movie and TV series did). Geoff Johns' Speed Force origin hasn't factored into the 140+ Flash comics since.

    I get that you don't like it, but you're overstating its presence.
    I may be, but for as long as it lasted, it ruined the family, so "how much has it been touched upon" is less of a concern. Further, as long as that concept is a thing that exists, the status quo is crap for everyone. And it's not ONLY that retcon that is wrong with Rebirth, regardless.

    Where did this information come from? Is it archived anywhere?
    2 Interveiews. I might have the links to both (I'm 95% sure I still have the links to the Didio one), but I don't know if they're live. I'll look it up later.

    Edit: My links are dead; I managed to find a commented transcript of the Didio interview, though, which is here:

    http://fourcolormedmon.blogspot.com/...-to-death.html

    The Johns one will be harder because I don't recall the exact quote, but if I manage to find it I'll post here as well.
    Last edited by BohemiaDrinker; 01-16-2020 at 09:34 PM.
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  5. #65
    Astonishing Member HandofPrometheus's Avatar
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    Whatever it was bringing Barry back started this mess.

  6. #66
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by docmidnite View Post
    Not true at all. I take it you havenít read many Silver and Bronze Age Flash stories or you would know that they were always treated equally whenever they were paired together. They never raced each other, so thereís no evidence for what youíre claiming there either.
    Barry was the Fastest Man Alive on Earth 1 only. Whereas Jay and Johnny were the Fastest Men Alive on Earth 2
    Barry and Jay did unofficially run against each other in a few stories pre-COIE and both appeared to have the same speed.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    Barry and Jay did unofficially run against each other in a few stories pre-COIE and both appeared to have the same speed.
    But I think it's still a bit disingenuous to say they were treated equally when together.

    Jay had to be frequently rescued by Barry, Barry won their "fight" because he was younger, and Barry often caught things Jay missed. Even one of Jay's biggest wins was a pity victory. Same speed or no, Barry was pretty much portrayed as being better which is understandable because it was his book.

    But Jay's overall treatment wasn't really any different than in Wally's run in my opinion.
    Last edited by Rend20; 01-17-2020 at 05:39 AM.

  8. #68
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    Flashpoint ruined the entire DCU...

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rend20 View Post
    But I think it's still a bit disingenuous to say they were treated equally when together.

    Jay had to be frequently rescued by Barry, Barry won their "fight" because he was younger, and Barry often caught things Jay missed. Even one of Jay's biggest wins was a pity victory. Same speed or no, Barry was pretty much portrayed as being better which is understandable because it was his book.

    But Jay's overall treatment wasn't really any different than in Wally's run in my opinion.
    As you pointed out, it was Barry's book in regard to some of their teamups, so that's why he sometimes got the better of Jay. That's just the way it is when you are the star, even if the guest superhero is certifiably more powerful than the title character.

    In the team crossovers, unlike post-COIE, Jay and the rest of the JSA weren't treated as second fiddle. They were both treated fairly and equally story-wise.
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  10. #70
    Incredible Member SixSpeedSamurai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandofPrometheus View Post
    Whatever it was bringing Barry back started this mess.
    Exactly, Dideo and Johns had to have their Silver Age hero back.

    Quote Originally Posted by SebastianS View Post
    Flashpoint ruined the entire DCU...
    Aside from Batman, New 52 didn't benefit any character.
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  11. #71
    Traveler of omniverses Thor-Ul's Avatar
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    My opinion: Flashpoint itself didn't ruined the Flash Family. In fact, since Infinite Crisis there was certain inestability with the Flash Family, but the return of Wally promised a lot. However when Barry returned in Final Crisis, there was no big impact. But when Johns plagiarized himself with Flash Rebirth and invented the idea of Barry being the source of the speed force (absurd concept) he wanted to repeat the impact of the green light being materialized will, seen in GL:R.
    Outside of being an explanation more metarefential, this idea don't work as good, because, one, a human being the source of a cosmic force put Barry to godhood levels. And two, for me at least the speed force is a concept than I asociated more to Wally, because he, at being less a scientific mind than Barry, understood the speed he had, under more methaphysical perspective.
    Maybe if Johns would had developted Barry more and developted the ideas he had in mind, everything could had have more sense, but Flashpoint wrecked his plans (you just have to look in the last page of Flash Rebirth to see the aborted ideas of Johns, not seen in Flash New52, which included the Reverse Flash Corps.)
    Last edited by Thor-Ul; 01-17-2020 at 02:15 PM.
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    I may be, but for as long as it lasted, it ruined the family, so "how much has it been touched upon" is less of a concern.
    It lasted a little over a year, and even then the run was too short for Geoff to develop it much. Relevant in 2010 maybe, not in 2020.

    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    Further, as long as that concept is a thing that exists, the status quo is crap for everyone.
    If it exists as a continuity footnote from about a decade ago, but hasn't been a plot point since, can it really be called a status quo?

    In 1967 it was revealed that The Flash was granted his powers by a heavenly helpmate named Mopee. This was never brought up again, but it wasn't formally removed from the lore until 1985 - and that was just in an issue of Who's Who, not in-story.

    But for anyone reading Flash comics in 1969, 1973, 1977, 1980, 1983, could that be called the status quo? Were those 18 years of Flash comics automatically crap and the character ruined because of an old plot point that was technically still in continuity, but no longer being used?

    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    2 Interveiews. I might have the links to both (I'm 95% sure I still have the links to the Didio one), but I don't know if they're live. I'll look it up later.

    Edit: My links are dead; I managed to find a commented transcript of the Didio interview, though, which is here:

    http://fourcolormedmon.blogspot.com/...-to-death.html

    The Johns one will be harder because I don't recall the exact quote, but if I manage to find it I'll post here as well.
    Could you post the dead links? They might be available on the Internet Archive Wayback Machine.

    Quote Originally Posted by SixSpeedSamurai View Post
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  13. #73
    Astonishing Member CrimsonEchidna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor-Ul View Post
    My opinion: Flashpoint itself didn't ruined the Flash Family. In fact, since Infinite Crisis there was certain inestability with the Flash Family, but the return of Wally promised a lot. However when Barry returned in Final Crisis, there was no big impact.
    I'd actually argue the opposite; there was a lot of red flags around the time of Barry's revival. At that time Wally was a member of the Titans and the KLA but suddenly, out of the blue, he got yanked from both books with Barry taking over the JLA slot and also the Flash ongoing. Didio was swearing up and down that they planned to release a Flash Family book at the time to feature all the other characters, but that never came so, for no real apparent reason, Wally was being shunted off into limbo for no defined reason.

    And then Flashpoint happened on top of that.
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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonEchidna View Post
    At that time Wally was a member of the Titans and the KLA but suddenly, out of the blue, he got yanked from both books with Barry taking over the JLA slot
    Did this happen? I thought Barry wasn't folded back into the Justice League comic until New 52. In the run immediately prior to New 52, Jesse Quick was the team speedster.

  15. #75
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    I think I prefer to say that Flashpoint “derailed” the Flash and Flash Family, rather than “ruined” it.

    I’d say that Flash Rebirth, and the chaos before it that Johns and Waid had been trying to overcome due to other editorial mandates and miscues, left the property vulnerable to that derailment, but didn’t actually spring it off the rails.

    Flashpoint’s biggest derailing elements were two fold - removing Johns from the Flash Rebirth project in its infancy and away from the property entirely in its aftermath, and giving Dan Didio his desire for a reboot where his marketing-based disgust with “redundancy” could take over and give him an excuse to cut out any “threats” to the simpler Barry as the *only* Flash.

    Johns’s setup for the Flash family in Rebirth clearly had weaknesses, especially regarding the Wally West situation - unlike with the Green Lantern Rebirth that Johns had overseen, the Post-Crisis Flash was arguably far more popular and superior to the Silver Age predecessor, even as a foundation for expansion - I mean, while Green Lantern under Hal saw the Corps existing and could supply the main book that Guy Gardner could be launched from, and thus showed why Hal might be more profitable than Kylo in his single Lantern state, Wally was the character who actually integrated the Flash Family into a story and launched Impulse, compared to Barry.

    Still...

    ...If Johns stays on the Flash book, I think getting a spin-off from the new status quo would be inevitable; I mean, Johns launched a spinoff from Aquaman within a few months of the New 52’s launch. And he clearly did want a full Flash family.

    Didio only allowed a Kid Flash in Teen Titans during the New 52 because he thought that teen hero niche would find him useful. He never even had that Kid Flash get tied to Barry - we got that stupid Bar Torr idea.
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