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  1. #16
    Incredible Member Riv86672's Avatar
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    The sequel started the trend of crossing over into ongoing titles, and while this sounds great in concept, it rarely works for me in reality.
    ^^^Same.
    It was interesting the first time but, it got old old quick. I didnít/donít like having to buy books I donít collect to follow a story.
    And, when it seemed companies, ESPECIALLY Marvel, were doing s crossover every two months instead of once a year, some titles got completely derailed by the multiple tie ins.
    The 2006 Ms. Marvel (Carol) book suffered in quality because of it, unable to really establish its own identity/storyline in its first year and change.
    There was The depowered Hercules book that I believe was 75% Fear Itself tie ins and then cancelled. Those always stood out to me.
    But really, if Iím not reading an event I dont want 5 months of i book I do read dedicated to it.

    It was stuff like that (at Marvel; DC had its own issues) that made me, a guy whoíd been collecting since 1974 quit for about 5 years.

  2. #17
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Oh yeah, there's an entire generation of "Secret Wars babies", i.e. people who read SW'84 as kids who have grown up to write Marvel in the last decade -- Ta-Nehisi Coates, Hickman, Zdarsky, Al Ewing, and in the movies you have Joe and Anthony Russo.

    SW'84 is the comic that more than any after Kirby left and Lee stepped down, reintroduced the Marvel Universe to an entire generation, and it provided a gateway, tour, and showcase for the entire line of characters that Lee and Kirby and Ditko created, as well as a few new ones that came in after them, to an entire new audience.

    In that respects it's the most successful event comic. The one that did what an event comic was supposed to do, and it marked a renaissance for the Marvel Universe. Compare that to COIE which is a mixed bag, in that it was ending the version of characters that an entire readership had known for decades and whose success created problems for new stories after that since the new readers who got in with Crisis had little reason to follow characters and stories that featured all new versions that they had no new emotional attachment to. SW'84 also has a timeless quality. It's a self-contained story that requires little to no familiarity with the status quo of the different characters plucked into Battleworld and provides a satisfying beg-mid-end for everyone. Which isn't the case with COIE, and for that matter SW'2015 which really doesn't entire work without you reading and knowing Hickman's run on FF and New Avengers/Avengers that leads into it.



    It's amazing how Doctor Doom is the actual protagonist of the entire event. It's basically about how he plays everyone, his flaws and virtues, and his great tragedy. Like even at the end, he has a sympathetic quality, like when after he becomes God, Cap talks to him peacefully and offers to help him free his mother's soul, which was Shooter setting up Stern's Triumph and Torment which he had already greenlit and was in production...a great display of Shooter's generosity and far sightedness as both EIC and writer.

    I think Shooter once said that Doom was his favorite character and he writes Doom brilliantly here and also in the AU crossover Superman and Spider-Man (a lesser known sequel to Conway's Superman V. TASM). The stuff with the X-Men and Avengers, and Shooter incorporating a more anti-heroic Magneto, despite some bits of camp and cheese (like Mags putting the moves on Janet), work as well.

    For me, after Triumph and Torment, SW'84 is Doom's greatest story and greatest moment in comics.

    Yes, I would agree with that. When you read Secret Wars for the first time Doom's final gambit and emergence as the main character in SW sneaks up on you. You figure he's played out after he gets slapped down by Galactus and the story moves on. But then he gets his second wind so to speak and finally it's Doom vs the Beyonder. Magneto almost agrees to join in but you just know if he did, Doom would just have used him to hold off the Beyonder long enough for his plan to work. I am reminded of Conan's assessment of Doom in Savage Avengers. Normally one that loathes sorcerers and their ilk, Conan praises Doom and says he is a sorcerer but with the heart of a warrior.

    It's also surprising that the hero that goes to confront the new God Doom is Captain America. I think the Fantastic Four characters in the event really have just a minor impact on the overall story. Sue was expecting their second child at the time they are whisked away and Reed's concern for her is reason I think Shooter used to give him a lower profile in the story. Cap is really the leader towards the end, not counting Professor X who is off managing with the X-Men. Off the top of my head, Ben and Johnny's parts don't really stand out to me. I think Ben broke his leg? He gets outdone up by the Hulk when he is able to hold up that mountain. Ben's only value would be his strength but with the Hulk around he really becomes redundant.

    But the choice to have Captain America and Doom to meet about the status quo with the Beyonder had to be Shooter's plan. Cap is the heroes' hero and usually above reproach. Doom's status as Marvel's main villain was always backed by Stan and Jack but now you had the rise in popularity of the X-Men which was never very successful prior until Claremont/Cockrum/Byrne. So then you had Magneto starting to gain traction as a contender among fans.

    Captain America had never been matched up with Doom all the often. He did team up with Doom in SVTU when the Red Skull had usurped the throne from Prince Rudolpho, who was disguised as Doom IIRC. In that story, Cap leaves it to Doom to take on the Red Skull in a battle on the Moon. Under certain circumstances there are times when a hero will place their trust in Doom in a temporary alliance and for the most part he will act honorably (depending on the writer) But in Secret Wars, Cap realized that the temptation for Doom is too overwhelming and he doubts he can be trusted. The power is too intoxicating.

  3. #18
    Mighty Member K7P5V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Yes, I would agree with that. When you read Secret Wars for the first time Doom's final gambit and emergence as the main character in SW sneaks up on you. You figure he's played out after he gets slapped down by Galactus and the story moves on. But then he gets his second wind so to speak and finally it's Doom vs the Beyonder. Magneto almost agrees to join in but you just know if he did, Doom would just have used him to hold off the Beyonder long enough for his plan to work. I am reminded of Conan's assessment of Doom in Savage Avengers. Normally one that loathes sorcerers and their ilk, Conan praises Doom and says he is a sorcerer but with the heart of a warrior.
    I also agree with you about Doom. He even made himself a subservient bodyguard after rebuilding Ultron.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    It's also surprising that the hero that goes to confront the new God Doom is Captain America. I think the Fantastic Four characters in the event really have just a minor impact on the overall story. Sue was expecting their second child at the time they are whisked away and Reed's concern for her is reason I think Shooter used to give him a lower profile in the story. Cap is really the leader towards the end, not counting Professor X who is off managing with the X-Men. Off the top of my head, Ben and Johnny's parts don't really stand out to me. I think Ben broke his leg? He gets outdone up by the Hulk when he is able to hold up that mountain. Ben's only value would be his strength but with the Hulk around he really becomes redundant.
    Nah. You're thinking of Bruce Banner. While fighting Ultron, he got his leg blasted. Also, completely understandable about Ben's situation. Grimm learned he had the capability to revert back to human again. In the final battle, the poor guy was an emotional mess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    But the choice to have Captain America and Doom to meet about the status quo with the Beyonder had to be Shooter's plan. Cap is the heroes' hero and usually above reproach. Doom's status as Marvel's main villain was always backed by Stan and Jack but now you had the rise in popularity of the X-Men which was never very successful prior until Claremont/Cockrum/Byrne. So then you had Magneto starting to gain traction as a contender among fans.

    Captain America had never been matched up with Doom all the often. He did team up with Doom in SVTU when the Red Skull had usurped the throne from Prince Rudolpho, who was disguised as Doom IIRC. In that story, Cap leaves it to Doom to take on the Red Skull in a battle on the Moon. Under certain circumstances there are times when a hero will place their trust in Doom in a temporary alliance and for the most part he will act honorably (depending on the writer) But in Secret Wars, Cap realized that the temptation for Doom is too overwhelming and he doubts he can be trusted. The power is too intoxicating.
    I remember that team-up between Cap & Doom. I love it when these two have a get-together.
    Last edited by K7P5V; Today at 01:48 PM. Reason: Added clarification.

  4. #19
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    It's also surprising that the hero that goes to confront the new God Doom is Captain America.
    Jim Shooter said that the main reason he, as EIC, wrote Secret Wars was that he was sure that if he gave the assignment to any writer on staff it would put some characters down in favor of others. He cited Englehart's Mantis' fixation as well as Claremont and Byrne's dustups against each other which continued when they no longer worked together.

    So he felt he had to do it to provide some balance and make sure every one got a fair shot. Magneto being a hero was because Claremont had told him that he was going to make him sympathetic and Shooter felt that it wouldn't be fair to introduce Magneto to a wide readership in a version that his staff-writer was in the midst of changing. And of course Claremont's run sold well so Shooter had to give Claremont's voice more weight.

    So I think Captain America being the leader was born out of that. He was someone uncontroversial, accepting him in charge didn't diminish any one hero or any one team. At least at the time. I wonder if Cap still has that consensus anymore.

    And I guess there was also the fact that Cap is Marvel's first hero (Namor pre-existed him but he wasn't exactly a hero at the start) and the first time anyone saw him was him punching Hitler with a jaw. Not that Doom is Hitler, but he's a dictator and if you need someone to stand up against a dictator and tyrant, Cap is as good as any. That might also be what Shooter is alluding to. Shooter definitely knew comics history and continuity and all that, so he would be more than capable to make deep cut references.

  5. #20

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    I'd like to buy a used copy of the TPB. It would be nice to read it again. marvel should produce an animated mini series about this. Or even two animated DVD films, part 1 and part 2.

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypestyle View Post
    I'd like to buy a used copy of the TPB. It would be nice to read it again. marvel should produce an animated mini series about this. Or even two animated DVD films, part 1 and part 2.
    The incentive to do SW in animation was that it was a story too comic-book-y to work in live-action. That's not the case anymore with the MCU where any story can be done.

    So eventually there will be a live-action SW. I imagine it will be a mash up of SW84 and SW2015 when it happens.

  7. #22
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    My first marvel super hero comic. It got me to fall in love with a lot of marvel super heroes I really didn't know very well. Perhaps even more surprising, it got me emotionally invested in a lot of marvel villains.

    Objectively speaking I can't call it a masterpiece the way I might Watchmen or Kingdom Come or Squadron Supreme (which I believe to this day is VERY underrated), but it was a fun super hero story that I can still pick up and read today.

  8. #23
    Mighty Member K7P5V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    My first marvel super hero comic. It got me to fall in love with a lot of marvel super heroes I really didn't know very well. Perhaps even more surprising, it got me emotionally invested in a lot of marvel villains.
    For the most part, great characterization that doesn't stray too far from what's been depicted.

    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Objectively speaking I can't call it a masterpiece the way I might Watchmen or Kingdom Come or Squadron Supreme (which I believe to this day is VERY underrated), but it was a fun super hero story that I can still pick up and read today.
    As mentioned earlier, it does have its flaws. But, I'll always consider it a classic.

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