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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    I'd quibble with the "trying to add".

    However, I think I have some parts of the answers to your question. As long as women, or queer people, or black, or other minority groups were confined to the margins as teammates, tokens, or fringe titles, then they were no threat. They were an alibi. "Some of my friends are black."

    But once the former marginalised group becomes too successful, there will be a backlash. The Sad Puppies, Gamergate, and similar movements are violent examples, both because of former marginalised groups demanding space both in general and doing so successfully in the creative areas. Samuel R Delany wrote a really great article on it in his "Racism and Science Fiction".

    Or Youtuber fandom musings in her movie essay "Attack on Captain Marvel: A casual look at the backlash against recent female lead superheroes" looking at similar mechanisms against women.

    Interesting video! Although I'd argue that the more you know about the history of the comic book characters, Carol is actually the more conservative version of small "f" feminism ( yet, I will concede that the WW movie really downplayed the feminist themes of the character's origin story). However, I think the poster missed a couple of things regarding the CM backlash...the push back against CM from the C*m*csg*t* crowd when Marvel cut her hair, and the overlap between that audience and the "commercial" skeptic/anti-SJW crowd. There was some poo-pooing of CM during the KSD run, but some folks lost their shit when Marvel cut hair. It was all, "Marvel has gone too far! This is everything wrong with PC culture! She looks like a man!" Some of the skeptic crowd saw money in criticizing over the top feminists and jumped on anything in nerd culture that fit that stereotype so Carol was a ripe target. So by the time the movie was scheduled to be released you had a group of people trained to dislike the movie eventhough they didn't know what it was about.

  2. #32
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    Interesting video! Although I'd argue that the more you know about the history of the comic book characters, Carol is actually the more conservative version of small "f" feminism ( yet, I will concede that the WW movie really downplayed the feminist themes of the character's origin story). However, I think the poster missed a couple of things regarding the CM backlash...the push back against CM from the C*m*csg*t* crowd when Marvel cut her hair, and the overlap between that audience and the "commercial" skeptic/anti-SJW crowd. There was some poo-pooing of CM during the KSD run, but some folks lost their shit when Marvel cut hair. It was all, "Marvel has gone too far! This is everything wrong with PC culture! She looks like a man!" Some of the skeptic crowd saw money in criticizing over the top feminists and jumped on anything in nerd culture that fit that stereotype so Carol was a ripe target. So by the time the movie was scheduled to be released you had a group of people trained to dislike the movie eventhough they didn't know what it was about.
    Well, it's hard to pick up all the cultural trends going around. That said, the cultural climates in which Wonder Woman (2017) and Captain Marvel (2019) weren't that different. The anti-SJW/misogynist/homophobe/racist pushback within popular culture has been going through nearly the entire 2010s, with Gamergate and the Sad Puppies as probably the first overt manifestations, though sf fandom had experienced earlier rumblings. Also, don't forget the reception that Ghostbusters received in 2016!

    The main difference between the cultural climate of Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel was one the video pointed out: that Wonder Woman had proved that female-led superhero movies could be successful (though I'd add in Black Panther as an additional factor).

    You're quite correct that Wonder Woman—as constructed—is more feminist than Captain Marvel. But their movies, and their lead actresses, had that relationship reversed, at least on an overt level. And the feminism in Wonder Woman was rendered "safe" by putting it in 1917.

    I'd also add that I'm rather convinced that performative negativity (and getting paid for complaining angrily about stuff on Youtube is performative negativity) is toxic for the soul and personality, and that watching and interacting with that regularly is quite bad as well.

    We are seriously going off-topic here :-)
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  3. #33
    Astonishing Member Gaastra's Avatar
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  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by jb681131 View Post
    Floppy's are only dying because of their prices.
    This is part of the problem.

    The floppies that might stick around are those that people see as being worth that amount of money, stuff that a reader will think is worth rereading multiple times.

    I could see floppies being less common, existing mainly for A-list projects (major creative teams on major characters), or experimental self-contained fair.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by jb681131 View Post
    Floppy's are only dying because of their prices.
    I don't know about that, there are no floppies when it comes to Manga and children's graphic novels, which outsell superhero comics.

    https://www.cbr.com/manga-comics-kid...l-superheroes/

    Really Marvel and DC should ditch floppies, make YA graphic novels that are self-contained but feature their most popular characters and are not connected to universes that have been around for decades.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mia View Post
    Not to mention their content. The need to be PC/SJW has sucked the creativity and storytelling out of the books. CB used to be out being a hero (ie. the bigger person) now it's about narcissism and need to see oneself reflected in the books. I mean if I want to see people like me, I can get that for free by sitting in the food court at the mall. The X-Men for instance used to be overcoming prejudice and not allowing your enemies to define you. Now it's about retiring to a corner because the world won't bow down and worship them. Batman- a self made man- has turned into Catwoman's dog on a leash. This is not inspiring.

    I can't tell the last comic book I picked up that I want to re-read. As it is I purchase about 5 books. Two are Image titles and one is about to be cancelled after 6 issues. So there you go.
    Just to add to the criticism of the post, who determines what is too ''PC'' or not in comics? You? Me?

    I can certainly see kids who are not straight white males wanting to see themselves in some of these characters, why should they not be represented?

    Also, this seems like more of this ''keep politics out comics'' nonsense I see from the alt-right, who seem to forget that social commentary has been a part of comics since day one.
    Last edited by The Overlord; 01-21-2020 at 09:57 PM.

  6. #36
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    Prices and content I have to say. I felt cheated buying Marvels Incoming for 10 bucks. It read like a commercial for different Marvel books. At the end you could even see which books they meant.

    Wow, and it started quite good the first 10 pages or so...

  7. #37
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    The mohawk/short hair thing is all about the artist imo. Some can make it look good and others cant. I wasnt a fan at first but when the helmets on its got a very unique profile

  8. #38
    Swollen Member GOLGO 13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanMad1977 View Post
    Prices and content I have to say. I felt cheated buying Marvels Incoming for 10 bucks. It read like a commercial for different Marvel books. At the end you could even see which books they meant.

    Wow, and it started quite good the first 10 pages or so...
    To my knowledge, none of my kids has ever held a floppy in their hands. My daughter has plenty of 200+ page $10 manga books that she has already read, lost, colored-in, kicked under her bed & probably purchased more than once.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by GOLGO 13 View Post
    To my knowledge, none of my kids has ever held a floppy in their hands. My daughter has plenty of 200+ page $10 manga books that she has already read, lost, colored-in, kicked under her bed & probably purchased more than once.
    Yeah, my kids never make any attempt to read something from my vast library. For a time my boy read Deadpool, because it was "cool", but that was it. He only reads Manga, but never buys them, only borrows them legally.

    So, they won't spend any money for reading. Reading is for free, he said. He wouldn't spend money on that, and collecting is the opposite of what he wants to do. Like owning stuff is something like a burden.

  10. #40
    Astonishing Member Gaastra's Avatar
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    My nephews and nieces still read trades but are more into the young adult stuff. My nephew has really got into Naruto and my hero academia on Netflix and hulu and are wanting to read the mangas. His younger brother reads pokemon and splatoon and big nate also.

  11. #41
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    Whats with the youth and mangas? For me, the Dinosaur I am, Manga is hard to read. I just cannot get into it, and I am open minded. The only thing I read was Akira.

  12. #42
    Mighty Member tbaron's Avatar
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    I am not young but I just got into manga. I am reading Battle Royal and Pokemon Adventures. Next on my read list is Claymore and Goblin Slayer.
    Favorite teams. Avengers, Fantastic Four, West Coast Avengers, Justice Society of America, Legion of Superheroes.

  13. #43
    Astonishing Member Gaastra's Avatar
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    Well manga is not really a new thing anyway. It's been around for a long time. It's had it's ups or downs. Thing a lot of people love about manga is it's everything from superheroes, to sci-fi, to horror, to kids, to slice of life, to sports drama to fantasy. They are over 100 pages for $10 or under if used and is more bang for your buck then a 32 pages floppy that takes 2 min to read for $5!

    Plus many manga turns into anime shows and teens watch the anime then seek out the manga. In japan they have two 5 story manga stores and go into most used bookstores and you will find a manga trade!

    They have "floppies" but the manga floppies are the size of a phone book with many stories in one issue and cheaper paper to keep the cost down with the trades getting the better paper!

    They even have on tv commercials for their "floppies" with full animation like transformers and gijoe did in the 80s and the real anime vas if there is a anime!

    Last edited by Gaastra; 01-29-2020 at 07:09 AM.

  14. #44
    Astonishing Member Gaastra's Avatar
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    Marvel used to do the same thing with tv ads for floppies.


  15. #45
    Fantastic Member chongjasmine's Avatar
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    I think digital is the way to go for comics. Saves cost, saves tree, saves space.
    That is just me, though.
    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son Jesus Christ, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16

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