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  1. #16
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Not from like the actual character, but more how much DC promotes and utilizes Harley and downplays Ivy or reduces her down to Harley's sidekick as a result.

    Even the Amy Chu mini, one of the few solo materials for Ivy, had to have Ivy shoo out Harley so she could get 5-minutes to herself.
    So the problem for Ivy is that Harley is pushed instead?

    When Harley is one of three female characters that DC sorta pushes (the other being Catwoman and Wonder Woman)? Instead of all the dudes they push?

    The answer to pulling up Ivy in the DC universe shouldn't be to push down Harley, or force a disconnect between the two. That way lies tokenism and and unhealthy obsession with status. It should be to pull up Ivy and all the other great female characters that DC has.

    DC pushes Batman and Joker far more than they push Harley, so why aren't they the problem?
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  2. #17
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    So the problem for Ivy is that Harley is pushed instead?

    When Harley is one of three female characters that DC sorta pushes (the other being Catwoman and Wonder Woman)? Instead of all the dudes they push?

    The answer to pulling up Ivy in the DC universe shouldn't be to push down Harley, or force a disconnect between the two. That way lies tokenism and and unhealthy obsession with status. It should be to pull up Ivy and all the other great female characters that DC has.

    DC pushes Batman and Joker far more than they push Harley, so why aren't they the problem?
    I agree with the principle that DC should pull up all their female characters to better prominence and stories, but I still feel this idea of Ivy being attached at the hip in what is basically a supporting role for Harley, or being incapable of doing really anything without Harley, has negatively impacted the character.

  3. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I agree with the principle that DC should pull up all their female characters to better prominence and stories, but I still feel this idea of Ivy being attached at the hip in what is basically a supporting role for Harley, or being incapable of doing really anything without Harley, has negatively impacted the character.
    They're relationship is very unique, strong, sweet and complex but I agree that I miss Ivy being alone in her own separate storyline.
    A picture would last longer darling...

  4. #19
    Astonishing Member PwrdOn's Avatar
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    Did anybody catch this? Pretty cool villainous depiction of Ivy at her seductive, manipulative best, though just like in the comic she meets an ignominious fate at the end of Catwoman's boot.

  5. #20
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    So the problem for Ivy is that Harley is pushed instead?

    When Harley is one of three female characters that DC sorta pushes (the other being Catwoman and Wonder Woman)? Instead of all the dudes they push?

    The answer to pulling up Ivy in the DC universe shouldn't be to push down Harley, or force a disconnect between the two. That way lies tokenism and and unhealthy obsession with status. It should be to pull up Ivy and all the other great female characters that DC has.

    DC pushes Batman and Joker far more than they push Harley, so why aren't they the problem?
    The problem is some higher-ups at DC think Ivy's greatest value lies in being a supporting character to Harley. That's what Frontier meant. Pushing Harley is great, and I am a fan of both her and her relationship with Ivy. But the narrative would be that much stronger if Ivy was built-up as her own character instead of just the love interest or the BFF.

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  7. #22
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I don't disagree, but it seems to go back into the "should Ivy be a villain?" argument.

  8. #23
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Opinions of creators who participated in Simone's discussion:

    Phil Jiminez seems to be for Villain Ivy but his reasoning is the weaker "there aren't enough legit female supervillains" instead of something directly related to Ivy herself (and then people pointed out that Wiki lists 1000+ DC villainesses so...)

    Stjepan Sejic wants to delve into the woman behind the cause and prefers her as morally complex with her human and plant sides constantly warring against each other

    Alex de Campi wants to write a middle grade book about a mischievous 12 year old Ivy

    Jody Houser chipped in to say she's had a blast writing Ivy

    Jimmy Palmiotti said he and Amanda Conner "try" to... I guess give her Harley/Catwoman treatment? but I haven't seen it yet lol

    Rick Leonardi who drew Ivy in Cassandra Cain's series compared her to Hellboy's tragic elves

    As you can see, people are all over the board when it comes to her characterization and that just shows how layered and multifaceted she really is. Perhaps the most complicated character among the Big 2's illustrious line-up right now.
    Last edited by Confuzzled; 01-24-2020 at 11:03 AM.

  9. #24
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    Opinions of creators who participated in Simone's discussion:

    Phil Jiminez seems to be for Villain Ivy but his reasoning is the weaker "there aren't enough legit female supervillains" instead of something directly related to Ivy herself (and then people pointed out that Wiki lists 1000+ DC villainesses so...).
    As far as the points against...people have complained about hero-turns for male villains before. I mean, everyone knew it wasn't going to stick for Luthor and Joker's never been a hero. Croc being on the Suicide Squad doesn't make him a good guy in my eyes.

    Lobo's back to being just Lobo.

    I know they also cite the Simone story but I don't think most writers conceptualize her that way. Some takes on Ivy definitely come off more like a sociopath, at least in how she interacts with certain humans.

    And I think I see Jiminez' point about the lack of female villains...not in quantity but in terms of high profile and power level. Sure one can say "just bump up your established female villains to bigger roles" so it's less of an issue, but it just doesn't seem to happen.

  10. #25
    Astonishing Member PwrdOn's Avatar
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    Like any good anti-hero/anti-villain, Ivy works as a character because all of her supposed flaws only serve to make her look cool. Oh no, she uses her sexuality as a weapon and isn't afraid to murder corrupt businessmen who want to harm the environment, won't someone please think of the children!? But trying to play her as a straight up hero doesn't work precisely because it softens that edge too much and puts too many restrictions on her that ruin the potential to tell interesting stories.

  11. #26
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Well, interesting how the latest episode of Harley Quinn touches upon this very point, kind of. The show seems to be in agreement with Ivy that her motivations aren't "evil" by showing the mega-corporation she is targeting as terrible.

    FYI, for those who aren't watching the show, its version of Ivy refuses to be labelled as a "supervillain", preferring "eco-terrorist" instead, and doesn't view her actions as villainous but necessary steps in protecting the environment. She also has no interest in joining the Legion of Doom (despite them constantly begging her to) as she sees them as little more than a fraternity of jerks, deriding them as "Legion of Dildos".
    Last edited by Confuzzled; 01-25-2020 at 09:08 AM.

  12. #27
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Good for Ivy! I watched the first half of the show, but didn't find the humour that funny, and their Poison Ivy to not be that interesting. Might be worthwhile to take another attempt.

    And now I wonder if Ivy will call the other big team "the Patriarchy League"?
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  13. #28
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    Well, interesting how the latest episode of Harley Quinn touches upon this very point, kind of. The show seems to be in agreement with Ivy that her motivations aren't "evil" by showing the mega-corporation she is targeting as terrible.

    FYI, for those who aren't watching the show, its version of Ivy refuses to be labelled as a "supervillain", preferring "eco-terrorist" instead, and doesn't view her actions as villainous but necessary steps in protecting the environment. She also has no interest in joining the Legion of Doom (despite them constantly begging her to) as she sees them as little more than a fraternity of jerks, deriding them as "Legion of Dildos".
    If I remember right she didn't count herself as a villain in B:TAS, or at least as part of Batman's Rogues Gallery.

    I do wonder if Ivy in HQ ever commits any general crime, like robbing banks, if only to fund herself.

  14. #29
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I do wonder if Ivy in HQ ever commits any general crime, like robbing banks, if only to fund herself.
    I'm assuming she gets a cut of the heists she aids Harley on like the Atlantis jewel robbery in Episode 8.

    The OP way she is depicted as a near goddess with control over all plant life, she is probably producing her own food (which she could also sell for finances?) and can easily create her plant arsenal without the need for scientific equipment, so her powers would play a huge role in helping her economically as well.
    Last edited by Confuzzled; 01-25-2020 at 01:25 PM.

  15. #30
    Astonishing Member PwrdOn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    Well, interesting how the latest episode of Harley Quinn touches upon this very point, kind of. The show seems to be in agreement with Ivy that her motivations aren't "evil" by showing the mega-corporation she is targeting as terrible.

    FYI, for those who aren't watching the show, its version of Ivy refuses to be labelled as a "supervillain", preferring "eco-terrorist" instead, and doesn't view her actions as villainous but necessary steps in protecting the environment. She also has no interest in joining the Legion of Doom (despite them constantly begging her to) as she sees them as little more than a fraternity of jerks, deriding them as "Legion of Dildos".
    I think it would be kind of tiresome though if Ivy were constantly having to justify her actions by pointing out that she only kills bad people or something like that. I also want to keep the door open for her to guest star as a straight up villain when the story requires it.

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