Thunderbolts Appreciation 2020

[Dermie]

In the end, you're proven right. But admittedly, throughout that first issue until the big reveal, everyone was in disguise and looked unusually different from how they're normally depicted elsewhere. This totally threw me off, but I wasn't saying they looked like teenagers.

Songbird was also younger than most of the group. Not a teenager like Jolt, of course, but there were a few references to her being younger than some of the others.

[Hybrid]

So... do you think there's any plans to bring back Thunderbolts as a proper title? I know they featured as antagonists in Punisher, but that's not quite the same thing. I hope they bring Songbird and MACH out of limbo, those two are the most core members to me.

What should be the premise of the new Thunderbolts book? Despite the fact that it's a villain-based franchise, it's gone a number of different ways:

• First, it was about the Masters of Evil in disguise while the members learn it's better to be heroes.
• Then, it becomes a halfway home for wayward supers to redeem themselves after Hawkeye took over.
• It was brought back after cancellation with a mix of old and new members leading up to Civil War.
• After CW, it became a more villainous group of hero hunters working for Norman Osborn.
• In Dark Reign, the Thunderbolts became Osborn's hit squad.
• Afterwards, it was led by Luke Cage, and essentially became Marvel's own Suicide Squad.
• Red Hulk took over, becoming a black ops team of anti-heroes.
• ANAD Marvel essentially returned the Thunderbolts to their roots, bringing most of the original crew back minus Zemo, and adding Winter Soldier and Kobik.

On some level, I can get why they changed it so much. If they redeemed too many villains, they'll be at loss, and villains becoming heroes was the original theme of Thunderbolts. Still, I prefer the older premise of the later ones focusing on black ops stuff, not that they were bad but they deviated too much from the original premise and it seems too obvious to riff on Suicide Squad. I think a core difference between DC's Suicide Squad and Marvel's Thunderbolts is this: The Suicide Squad are being forced to do good. The Thunderbolts actively want to do good.

So personally, I'd have Songbird and MACH restart the team and act as that halfway home for villains on the verge of becoming good guys or needing redemption before it's too late. Who else could be added?

[K7P5V]

Songbird was also younger than most of the group. Not a teenager like Jolt, of course, but there were a few references to her being younger than some of the others.

Very true, Dermie. Also, whether unintentional or conscious, there were hints that she had "experience" in picking up men.

[Hypestyle]

So... do you think there's any plans to bring back Thunderbolts as a proper title? I know they featured as antagonists in Punisher, but that's not quite the same thing. I hope they bring Songbird and MACH out of limbo, those two are the most core members to me.

What should be the premise of the new Thunderbolts book? Despite the fact that it's a villain-based franchise, it's gone a number of different ways:

• First, it was about the Masters of Evil in disguise while the members learn it's better to be heroes.
• Then, it becomes a halfway home for wayward supers to redeem themselves after Hawkeye took over.
• It was brought back after cancellation with a mix of old and new members leading up to Civil War.
• After CW, it became a more villainous group of hero hunters working for Norman Osborn.
• In Dark Reign, the Thunderbolts became Osborn's hit squad.
• Afterwards, it was led by Luke Cage, and essentially became Marvel's own Suicide Squad.
• Red Hulk took over, becoming a black ops team of anti-heroes.
• ANAD Marvel essentially returned the Thunderbolts to their roots, bringing most of the original crew back minus Zemo, and adding Winter Soldier and Kobik.

On some level, I can get why they changed it so much. If they redeemed too many villains, they'll be at loss, and villains becoming heroes was the original theme of Thunderbolts. Still, I prefer the older premise of the later ones focusing on black ops stuff, not that they were bad but they deviated too much from the original premise and it seems too obvious to riff on Suicide Squad. I think a core difference between DC's Suicide Squad and Marvel's Thunderbolts is this: The Suicide Squad are being forced to do good. The Thunderbolts actively want to do good.

So personally, I'd have Songbird and MACH restart the team and act as that halfway home for villains on the verge of becoming good guys or needing redemption before it's too late. Who else could be added?

I'm not a fan of casually turning "every" established villain into an "anti-hero". it would have to be very carefully explored, to me.
I'm not a fan of Venom but I suppose he fits the bill. I'd rather see him here than in the Avengers, for sure.
I'm at a loss for more obscure folks. I'd have to have access to somebody's villains database. But thematically, I'd like to see the "career thieves" or "hired muscle" more represented than the "cold blooded killers".

[Thundershot]

I’d also much rather see Songbird and Mach X helping lesser villains become heroes. I feel those two are the only ones who truly became fully redeemed. Maybe the twist this time is that they pose as villains and draw in a group of lesser villains and slowly work their way to redemption from the inside. It works for some and doesn’t work for others. Maybe it becomes a disaster for one or two.

[Sutekh]

I’d also much rather see Songbird and Mach X helping lesser villains become heroes. I feel those two are the only ones who truly became fully redeemed. Maybe the twist this time is that they pose as villains and draw in a group of lesser villains and slowly work their way to redemption from the inside. It works for some and doesn’t work for others. Maybe it becomes a disaster for one or two.

Yeah, them taking on the 'Hawkeye' role of helping others who aren't as well suited to dig their way out of villainy, would be one way to go, but as Hybrid said, I'm not fond of too many villain redemptions, just because they are so much fun as *villains.*

OTOH, Songbird and Mach Overcompensatory Number Inflation could just team up with other 'kinda / sorta' villains who have worked both sides of the fence before, like Diamondback, Sandman, Frenzy, Black Cat, etc. or heroes with sketchier reputations who don't always get good press, like Paladin, Prowler, etc., or a few junior heroes who haven't yet gotten a chance to break out, like various young heroes snatched up from Avengers Academy, the Initiative, New X-Men, New Warriors, etc.

I much prefer a Thunderbolts book be *character-driven,* the story of Mel and Abe and Erik, etc. and not a 'theme book' like DC's Suicide Squad, with an ever-rotating cast of bad-guys doing good things, or whatever. The story of their character growth and transition (and failures and missteps along the way) was amazing, and I don't really want to read endless attempts to repeat the same darn story with yet other villain characters. (And when that *does* happen, organically, say with Scott Lang forming an ex-villain-ish team with Grizzly, Machinesmith, Lady Beetle, etc. I don't want 'Thunderbolts' slapped on the book. Let 'Ant-Man Security Solutions,' or whatever, fly free of that baggage.)

[H-E-D]

I much prefer a Thunderbolts book be *character-driven,* the story of Mel and Abe and Erik, etc. and not a 'theme book' like DC's Suicide Squad, with an ever-rotating cast of bad-guys doing good things, or whatever. The story of their character growth and transition (and failures and missteps along the way) was amazing, and I don't really want to read endless attempts to repeat the same darn story with yet other villain characters.

I think Jeff Parker's run – before it got derailed into the absurdly over-extended time travel arc – did a good job of balancing the two. Ellis' too.

I wouldn't want the Thunderbolts to only be the OG lineup; but it should be a character-driven affair.

[Slaminn]

Songbird and Mach training and helping a group of former villains to become heroes would be a good concept for a team for me.

Abe already had a support group for villains trying to go straight in the Superior Foes book, so maybe he could find volunteers from there. Mirage perhaps?

Some of Mel's former Grappler teammates are going straight in Wasp book, maybe she could reach out to them?

I think that the villains they recruit should actually want to reform. The appeal of the original Thunderbolts for me was seeing the team start to actually enjoy being heroes and doing good deeds. I want to see that in a new book.

Also, take a cue from the original team and adopt a whole new heroic identity and costume.

[Thundershot]

I definitely agree and it should be character driven. That’s why I hated the Osborn and later versions of the Thunderbolts. It was just a gimmick instead of being about the characters.

[Michael Watkins]

I definitely agree and it should be character driven. That’s why I hated the Osborn and later versions of the Thunderbolts. It was just a gimmick instead of being about the characters.

eh. you're entitled to your opinion. and i liked the other versions of the Tbolts better, as well. but there were character beats in Diggle's run. it was just a less important book in the wake of all of the other villain books out, at the time. Ghost came to prominence in the series. and i'd say that Paladin had a decent character arc. it was a necessary variation on the original theme. the original crop were villains slowly learning to be heroes while only pretending to be. Clint, a reformed "villain," came around and forced them to continue on that journey. he forced them to walk the walk. but that was in a world where good was winning. the dark reign era was about a reformed "villain" (Natasha) trying to steer villains in another direction; away from Osborn. but villains were winning at this point. and the individual tbolts were gradations of evil. Natasha couldn't get them to fight on her side. but she planted the seeds that eventually led to Paladin and Ghost turning on Osborn. i wouldn't call that a gimmick.

[Michael Watkins]

Songbird and Mach training and helping a group of former villains to become heroes would be a good concept for a team for me.

but is there room for that concept? keep in mind that several of the x-books are dealing with former villains working towards a shared goal with their former enemies. pretty much every team has a familiar villain on it (Black Tom, Pyro, Deathbird, etc). just something to consider.

[danielsan52]

Was Skein the only mutant TBolt?

[Dermie]

Was Skein the only mutant TBolt?

It looks that way, unless you start including members of the huge Thunderbolts Army during the first Civil War. I'm not sure about Mister X though--were his telepathic abilities a mutant power, or was he one of humanity's 'natural' telepaths?

[Michael Watkins]

can only speculate. his origin story is basically a twisted version of Jean Grey's. he witnessed something horrible and it unlocked his telepathy. that, his creation as a Wolverine villain, it being the 90s, and the use of 'X' makes me lean towards him being a mutant. he wasn't included in any of the Decimation/M-Day/198 Files irrc. that could point to him not being a mutant.

Andreas Strucker is an artificial mutant
i don't think that it's ever been revealed how Paladin came upon his augmented strength
Juggernaut has been a mutant before but that's been mostly forgotten

[Digifiend]

Juggs isn't a mutie. He got his powers from a special gem.