Post-Crisis, Pre-52 Appreciation 2020

[godisawesome]

What’s your guys’ opinion about Streets of Gotham?

I thought it was a great “catch-all” Gotham book. Not a great Batman book in the sense that Batman wasn’t the main feature, but a great Batman book in terms of telling Gotham’s story around Gotham.

Like, House of Hush isn’t a Batman story, but it’s still really, really good.

(I just got done listening to a The Batman Universe: Bat-Books for Beginners podcast on it, and their main complaint was Batman’s smaller role, but I personally still love it.)

[millernumber1]

What’s your guys’ opinion about Streets of Gotham?

I thought it was a great “catch-all” Gotham book. Not a great Batman book in the sense that Batman wasn’t the main feature, but a great Batman book in terms of telling Gotham’s story around Gotham.

Like, House of Hush isn’t a Batman story, but it’s still really, really good.

(I just got done listening to a The Batman Universe: Bat-Books for Beginners podcast on it, and their main complaint was Batman’s smaller role, but I personally still love it.)

I loved the Dini parts. The other stuff I thought was kinda forgettable, except for the Huntress side-story early on in the run.

Haha, my buddies did the Bat-Books for Beginners cast!

[TheCape]

Man i really need to finish Streets of Gotham, i really liked Dini's Tec, is one of my favorite runs.

[millernumber1]

Man i really need to finish Streets of Gotham, i really liked Dini's Tec, is one of my favorite runs.

Definitely worth it. And read the backups with Manhunter! They're fantastic!

[gregpersons]

I should go back to Streets of Gotham, too.

The more I think about it, I definitely have a fondness for books/stories that place Batman as a supporting character and focuses on the world around him and how he impacts it. (With that view in mind I also enjoyed both Burton films quite a bit more in a recent rewatch - they're far more about Gotham City than Bruce Wayne).

Same could be said for Superman -- "Smashes The Klan" being one of the best Supes stories in years. Characters like Batman & Superman are often so static it's best to treat them as a force of nature and instead make your protagonist a POV capable of bigger changes.

[godisawesome]

I should go back to Streets of Gotham, too.

The more I think about it, I definitely have a fondness for books/stories that place Batman as a supporting character and focuses on the world around him and how he impacts it. (With that view in mind I also enjoyed both Burton films quite a bit more in a recent rewatch - they're far more about Gotham City than Bruce Wayne).

Same could be said for Superman -- "Smashes The Klan" being one of the best Supes stories in years. Characters like Batman & Superman are often so static it's best to treat them as a force of nature and instead make your protagonist a POV capable of bigger changes.

The Carpenter story right before House of Hush is a perfect example of that - it’s basically one almost entirely new character, one totally brand new villain, a Paul Dini sense of humor, and Batman as a last minute reinforcement.

That Bat-Books for Beginners podcast kind of reminded me of some of the weirdness of the RIP era - I think some of us came to appreciate it a bit more after it ended, just because some people rolled their eyes at the RIP set-up and you had stuff like the admittedly sub-optimal transition between Cassandra and Stephanie, or how it took some time for everyone to get use to Damian as Robin.

In hindsight, it’s a fantastic era, but one where editorial could have helped a bit at smoothing the few edges it had.

[millernumber1]

The Carpenter story right before House of Hush is a perfect example of that - it’s basically one almost entirely new character, one totally brand new villain, a Paul Dini sense of humor, and Batman as a last minute reinforcement.

That Bat-Books for Beginners podcast kind of reminded me of some of the weirdness of the RIP era - I think some of us came to appreciate it a bit more after it ended, just because some people rolled their eyes at the RIP set-up and you had stuff like the admittedly sub-optimal transition between Cassandra and Stephanie, or how it took some time for everyone to get use to Damian as Robin.

In hindsight, it’s a fantastic era, but one where editorial could have helped a bit at smoothing the few edges it had.

Carpenter is such a fun character. Perfectly Dini, and I think could really be useful in many stories.

It is true that I myself didn't come to love Damian until Batgirl #17, only 7 months before the n52, and there was a sense of uncertainty at the time. It does make me hope that some things I love, like DCYou and Tom King's Batman, will come to take on a new fan evaluation a few years after they are over, and the controversy dies down. To be fair, DCYou has been over for 4 years, and it's still more a cult favorite than fondly remembered as a whole, but...I can hope!

[Will Evans]

What was everyone’s feeling in Vicki Vale being told the secret and let into the “family” toward the end?

[godisawesome]

Carpenter is such a fun character. Perfectly Dini, and I think could really be useful in many stories.

It is true that I myself didn't come to love Damian until Batgirl #17, only 7 months before the n52, and there was a sense of uncertainty at the time. It does make me hope that some things I love, like DCYou and Tom King's Batman, will come to take on a new fan evaluation a few years after they are over, and the controversy dies down. To be fair, DCYou has been over for 4 years, and it's still more a cult favorite than fondly remembered as a whole, but...I can hope!

Damian really benefitted from having guys like Miller, Dini, Yost, and Nicieza offer stories to read where he was put in a supporting role, paired with different characters, and given different perspectives than just Morrison’s. I the Tim fan was gratified to see someone express some frustration, irritation, and annoyance at Damian... but then get treated as a heroic ally with some hilarious bravado himself (“Ninjas, grandfather? Really?”) while getting a good “Cousin Oliver” reference later, and seeing BatSteph juggle his anti-social behavior with genuine sympathy worked wonders as well.

What was everyone’s feeling in Vicki Vale being told the secret and let into the “family” toward the end?

I was down with it; Vicki’s generally one of the artifacts of Gotham that rarely sees any use, so seeing her get some kind of story was an improvement.

[millernumber1]

What was everyone’s feeling in Vicki Vale being told the secret and let into the “family” toward the end?

I was just rereading the Bruce Wayne: the Road Home: Red Robin one shot, and will be doing the Batgirl one shot next week for the Stephanie Brown Appreciation thread. I love this plotline - one of the few Nicieza plotlines I think was actually well conceived and executed from the years 2007-2011. I wish someone had picked up Vicki as a character and made her a main part of something like Streets of Gotham, or a backup.

Damian really benefitted from having guys like Miller, Dini, Yost, and Nicieza offer stories to read where he was put in a supporting role, paired with different characters, and given different perspectives than just Morrison’s. I the Tim fan was gratified to see someone express some frustration, irritation, and annoyance at Damian... but then get treated as a heroic ally with some hilarious bravado himself (“Ninjas, grandfather? Really?”) while getting a good “Cousin Oliver” reference later, and seeing BatSteph juggle his anti-social behavior with genuine sympathy worked wonders as well.

I was down with it; Vicki’s generally one of the artifacts of Gotham that rarely sees any use, so seeing her get some kind of story was an improvement.

It really does. I think Morrison struggled to garner sympathy for Damian early on, and I understand why, especially since Morrison planned to kill him off - but I think DC rightly understood the potential of Damian, even though they often did very poorly executing it (the "only true son" stuff really, really rankles, even today).

I really wish that Vicki Vale were getting a relationship plotline with Babs - not necessarily romantic, but a friendship, which would dovetail perfectly with Babs working for a politician and Vicki being a reporter - as the "let's pick up on some Batman Eternal plotlines" element in the current Batgirl title instead of Jason Bard...and I even ship Babs and Bard because of Dixon's Birds of Prey...

[Will Evans]

Jason Bard and Babs go way back......to the Bronze Age.

[millernumber1]

Jason Bard and Babs go way back......to the Bronze Age.

Oh, I know, but I know them from Dixon's Birds of Prey, not the Bronze Age.

[gregpersons]

The Carpenter story right before House of Hush is a perfect example of that - it’s basically one almost entirely new character, one totally brand new villain, a Paul Dini sense of humor, and Batman as a last minute reinforcement.

That Bat-Books for Beginners podcast kind of reminded me of some of the weirdness of the RIP era - I think some of us came to appreciate it a bit more after it ended, just because some people rolled their eyes at the RIP set-up and you had stuff like the admittedly sub-optimal transition between Cassandra and Stephanie, or how it took some time for everyone to get use to Damian as Robin.

In hindsight, it’s a fantastic era, but one where editorial could have helped a bit at smoothing the few edges it had.

Shoot I'm not sure if I've ever read that arc, or if I have I really don't recall... thanks for the recommendation! Can't wait.

I re-read Batman Year 100 the other night and was thinking again of the Rebirth/RIP era since that comic also deals with legacy, and how much more I like the "Batman story" overall if it's not from the perspective of Bruce Wayne.

I am really re-appreciating Tim Burton's view on the character; I listened to his audio commentary for the '89 film some other separate night (the nights are blurring together now for everyone I imagine), and really came to respect his vision a whole lot more. I realized I was being possibly unfair to the work and to myself as an appreciator by segregating "Burton-verse" to its own pocket of existence, when I realized it's in a lot of ways the version of Batman I think works best --- INCLUDING the fact that Bruce Wayne himself is not an intimidating figure (ie, why Ben Affleck/TAS/comics Bruce is kinda dumb even though its the standard), which would motivate & explain his desire and need to dress up as Dracula.

All of that is to say -- Bruce Wayne's invention of Batman is interesting, but the adventures become far MORE interesting when we see the practical application of Batman succeeding -- in other words "becoming a symbol" and others carrying on his crusade who maybe DON"T have the specific personal connection to violent crime, or Wayne's perspective on things. It becomes 1000000x more interesting to me.

We've never had this story, I want to write it some day maybe just as a fanfic even -- but expanding a bit on the Dixon Robin/Nightwing Year One idea, but doing it overall -- the "life story" of Dick Grayson, the whole Batman story but only from Grayson's POV and how he comes to go from worshipping Bruce to despising him to forgiving him to carrying on in his name -- it's easily the most interesting character arc in the whole mythos.

And of course he's also the character most mangled by DC editorial, which is just perfectly on brand.

[millernumber1]

All of that is to say -- Bruce Wayne's invention of Batman is interesting, but the adventures become far MORE interesting when we see the practical application of Batman succeeding -- in other words "becoming a symbol" and others carrying on his crusade who maybe DON"T have the specific personal connection to violent crime, or Wayne's perspective on things. It becomes 1000000x more interesting to me.

We've never had this story, I want to write it some day maybe just as a fanfic even -- but expanding a bit on the Dixon Robin/Nightwing Year One idea, but doing it overall -- the "life story" of Dick Grayson, the whole Batman story but only from Grayson's POV and how he comes to go from worshipping Bruce to despising him to forgiving him to carrying on in his name -- it's easily the most interesting character arc in the whole mythos.

And of course he's also the character most mangled by DC editorial, which is just perfectly on brand.

I am hoping that Snyder's pitched Nightwing Black Label series might do something like this.

[millernumber1]

Some pretty fun "what could have been" from two of my favorite lesser known Dixon runs - pages from the script for Batman and the Outsiders #12 (only his first 10 were published), and some background and hints about his series of Wildcat minis (Batman/Wildcat, Catwoman/Wildcat, and the proposed Robin/Wildcat). Both of these comics were really fun romps, and it would have been great to get some more of them!