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  1. #241
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    The second one-shot was great. I love how Bane is originally all "No one can beat me, I've got Venom!" and then he's like "getting my ass kicked by Az-Bats doesn't count, I was on Venom!" What a whiner.

    I love King's interpretation of Bane's time in solitary confinement, but (if memory serves) he kind of shied away from Bane having a vision of his future perfect self and I didn't like the omission if it was intended as a retcon.

    I've been trying to figure out how to make the same point but I'm glad you beat me to it because you did it so much better than I could have.

    I think it's interesting that in the rush to make villain-centric live action films, Bane hasn't even gotten consideration when his origin is probably best suited to that kind of project.

    I thought Conquest was a bit of a chore to read through, with an ending that deserves a much better story than the one it's attached to.
    Haha. To be fair, the structure of Bane's story in Knightfall is really weird. He gets beaten by the second stringer, and never really gets a rematch against a Batman as his peak.

    I love the feeling King adds to Bane's story. I do think it got a bit weird later on as the story structure changed (poor Bane, being the focus of a major Batman run for a second time, and still getting wiped out by story structure! )

    That's a fair reading of Conquest, though I didn't think it was a chore, just kinda middle of the road.
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  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I honestly always loved the idea of Bane going after Raís Al Ghul after Legacy, as a kind of inevitable and bloody sequel to Bane of the Demon. Itís a shame that didnít get a mini-series for it.
    That would be great, Bane was beaten badly by Ra's Al Ghul on one-on-one duel and he was in love with Talia, who at the end of Legacy, he thought was dead.

  3. #243
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Haha. To be fair, the structure of Bane's story in Knightfall is really weird. He gets beaten by the second stringer, and never really gets a rematch against a Batman as his peak.
    I love how Knightfall (and its subsequent fallout) subverted expectations, like putting off Bruce's inevitable rematch with Bane for several years, or having Bruce reclaim the mantle of the bat without physically beating Jean Paul.

    By the time you get to VoBII, it's like Dixon is intentionally trolling fans, because you're like "here it comes!" and then Bane's like, "nah, I don't wanna, I got no reason to fight you now." And it's brilliant!

    I love the feeling King adds to Bane's story. I do think it got a bit weird later on as the story structure changed (poor Bane, being the focus of a major Batman run for a second time, and still getting wiped out by story structure! )
    Honestly, it's kind of Bane's thing at this point. I mean, by the time he got his rematch with Batman, he only did so as a proxy for Ra's beef with him. And then he ended up being used for Thomas' purposes.

    That's a fair reading of Conquest, though I didn't think it was a chore, just kinda middle of the road.
    Middle of the road is okay for a one-shot, bearable for an arc, and downright difficult to read when it's a maxi-series...

  4. #244
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    I love how Knightfall (and its subsequent fallout) subverted expectations, like putting off Bruce's inevitable rematch with Bane for several years, or having Bruce reclaim the mantle of the bat without physically beating Jean Paul.

    By the time you get to VoBII, it's like Dixon is intentionally trolling fans, because you're like "here it comes!" and then Bane's like, "nah, I don't wanna, I got no reason to fight you now." And it's brilliant!

    Honestly, it's kind of Bane's thing at this point. I mean, by the time he got his rematch with Batman, he only did so as a proxy for Ra's beef with him. And then he ended up being used for Thomas' purposes.
    That's a very good point. I just think it means Bane is forever unsatisfied as a character. Which is kind of his point, so I guess totally brilliant.
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  5. #245
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Halfway through my reading of Knightfall now. Just finished the eleventh chapter. I remember picking this up from a local Waldenbooks at the mall when it first came out, and how shocked I was by the ending. The issue holds up really well, in terms of emotional impact (even though the shock is gone). You really feel for Bruce having sacrificed so much to save Gotham and then getting trounced, trash-talked, and broken by Bane.

  6. #246

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    Check out my latest post in this linked thread! Feel free to discuss there, or here. I figured since this involves a story that was written smack dab in the middle of the post crisis, pre new 52, era, it was worth mentioning here.

    https://community.cbr.com/showthread...leased-in-2020
    Last edited by kevink31593; 06-15-2020 at 07:57 PM.
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  7. #247

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    Adding on to some of the Knightfall conversation above...... I was only 10/11/12 years old when the Knightfall saga was originally released, and that was when I first started reading/collecting comics. I definitely remember picking up on the fact that Bane beat Bruce, then Jean Paul beat Bane, and finally Bruce beat Jean Paul. It was kind of like rock, scissors, paper with the 3 of them. And then Bruce never really got a "proper" rematch with Bane, even though they had some later run-ins. But I REALLY liked how Rucka handled Bruce and Bane in the "Shellgame" arc years later, towards the end of No Man's Land. Bruce "defeated" Bane in No Man's Land, not by beating him in combat, but just by talking him into leaving Gotham. That is the kind of Batman I like, who wins fights with his mind, before resorting to unnecessary violence. The only reason Bane was able to defeat Bruce in Knightfall, wasn't just because Bruce was physically exhausted, but most importantly because Bruce was mentally fatigued. Bruce can push past physical exhaustion if his mind is at it's peak.

    The really play up the "forever unsatisfied as a character" aspect of Bane in the current Harley Quinn animated series. I think the version of Bane in that show is hilarious (in a good way)! But very different from any other previous interpretation.
    Last edited by kevink31593; 06-15-2020 at 08:01 PM.
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  8. #248
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Because of O'Neil's death this weekend (which I'm still gutted by), I'm listening to a lot of interviews with him/about him, and I...

    It's so clear that O'Neil is the reason the 90s worked the way they did. And not everything was great. But it was better than it had any right to be, and even if individual writers have been better since, none of them have worked together better (I still maintain that James Tynion IV is a 90s writer in a Millenial body, and wish there were more of him and a Denny to mentor him).
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  9. #249

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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Because of O'Neil's death this weekend (which I'm still gutted by), I'm listening to a lot of interviews with him/about him, and I...

    It's so clear that O'Neil is the reason the 90s worked the way they did. And not everything was great. But it was better than it had any right to be, and even if individual writers have been better since, none of them have worked together better (I still maintain that James Tynion IV is a 90s writer in a Millenial body, and wish there were more of him and a Denny to mentor him).
    I was devastated when I learned of Denny's passing also. I agree with the rest of what you said, just based on my memory of starting to read and collect Batman during his era of editorship. Denny was group editor over the three writer team of Chuck Dixon on Detective, Doug Moench on Batman, and Alan Grant on Shadow of the Bat, and that lasted for six years. No one of those writers felt like the "lead writer", like we have now, but they were just a team that was telling good Batman stories month after month for years. And I'm sure Denny had lot to do with keeping that going for as long as it did. (also, Tynion happens to be one of my favorite modern writers)

    I'm planning on re-watching the interviews Denny did last year for DC Universe's DC Daily, if they still have them up. Also I've never listened to the "Fatman on Batman" with Kevin Smith and Denny, I'm planning to give that a listen. Anything you'd recommend?
    Last edited by kevink31593; 06-15-2020 at 08:24 PM.
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  10. #250
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevink31593 View Post
    I was devastated when I learned of Denny's passing also. I agree with the rest of what you said, just based on my memory of starting to read and collect Batman during his era of editorship. Denny was group editor over the three writer team of Chuck Dixon on Detective, Doug Moench on Batman, and Alan Grant on Shadow of the Bat, and that lasted for six years. No one of those writers felt like the "lead writer", like we have now, but they were just a team that was telling good Batman stories month after month for years. And I'm sure Denny had lot to do with keeping that going for as long as it did. (also, Tynion happens to be one of my favorite modern writers)

    I'm planning on re-watching the interviews Denny did last year for DC Universe's DC Daily, if they still have them up. Also I've never listened to the "Fatman on Batman" with Kevin Smith and Denny, I'm planning to give that a listen. Anything you'd recommend?
    Nothing super spectacular. He tends to use the same general stories, with some new details depending on the questioner. I should hunt down the Fatman on Batman one - Smith can do some good interviews.

    It's such a huge blow. A passing of an era, 20 years after the era was over. Makes me think of the people from that period we still have left, and what I would want to say when they, too, leave us.
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  11. #251
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    I was re-reading the Robin books from R.I.P.... and I stumbled across the part of that story where two corrupt GCPD detectives, Cavallo and Weiss, get arrested and it starts a police strike.

    It *is* weird when real world events echo comic events from years ago...
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  12. #252

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    https://youtu.be/DsrG1lHM8A4

    Chuck Dixon talks about his thoughts on Knightfall, Contagion, Legacy, Cataclysm, No Man’s Land, and Fugitive in this YouTube video (starting at about 17:15). Very interesting to hear what he says, either good or bad. Sounds like he loved Knightfall, and Legacy was his second favorite. I started collecting with Knightfall, and it’s my favorite also. He sounds pretty bitter about the later crossovers, in which he was less involved.
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  13. #253
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevink31593 View Post
    https://youtu.be/DsrG1lHM8A4

    Chuck Dixon talks about his thoughts on Knightfall, Contagion, Legacy, Cataclysm, No Man’s Land, and Fugitive in this YouTube video (starting at about 17:15). Very interesting to hear what he says, either good or bad. Sounds like he loved Knightfall, and Legacy was his second favorite. I started collecting with Knightfall, and it’s my favorite also. He sounds pretty bitter about the later crossovers, in which he was less involved.
    Oh, man, I should have posted this here! I really loved that answer to the last question, even though I disagree somewhat. I think that he was treated very, very badly on his way out, but I still like things like Cataclysm and Bruce Wayne, Murderer/Fugitive. I think the main creative problem he identifies - that they clearly didn't know who the villain was at the beginning - is a serious problem. I think a lot of the rest of his frustration comes from the dominance of creators he really didn't get along with, though.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
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  14. #254

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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Oh, man, I should have posted this here! I really loved that answer to the last question, even though I disagree somewhat. I think that he was treated very, very badly on his way out, but I still like things like Cataclysm and Bruce Wayne, Murderer/Fugitive. I think the main creative problem he identifies - that they clearly didn't know who the villain was at the beginning - is a serious problem. I think a lot of the rest of his frustration comes from the dominance of creators he really didn't get along with, though.
    I've watched a few of those "Ask Chuck Dixon" videos before, I see them pop up in my Facebook feed every so often. I enjoy listening to what he has to say, even though I don't always agree with him 100%. I grew up enjoying reading almost everything he wrote for the Batverse in the 1990s, as it came out. (The first three Batman comics I ever bought and read were Batman #467-469, the "Shadow Box" arc, written by Dixon. I bought it in a 3-pack at KB Toys at my local shopping mall when I was 10 years old, shortly after BTAS premiered.)

    Anyways, I thought this video was a nice behind the scenes recap from Dixon's point of view, of the Bat crossover era of 1990s and early 2000s, so I thought it worth posting here. Some things that stood out to me:

    I loved hearing him talk about Knightfall, it sounds like he really had fun on that storyline, and the lead up to it.

    Dixon's comment about his taking the "lead" for most of Legacy, because Doug Moench and Alan Grant were getting tired of crossovers. I recall right after Legacy ended, there was a "From the Den" column from Denny O'Neil that was featured in every single Batman related book one month. Denny essentially announced that effective immediately, there would be no crossovers for 18 months, story arcs within series would be 3 issues max, and every month at least one Bat book would have a single part story. In retrospect, I think it's obvious that Denny was just taking care of his writers, keeping them happy. I think the readers benefited also, I thought there was a good variety of stories during that period.

    "The junior woodchuck editors Scott Peterson, Jordan Gorfinkel, and Darren" comment got a chuckle out of me. I think I've seen or read other Dixon interviews in the past, where he talks about how the "junior editors" gradually took over from Denny O'Neil in the late 1990s. Peterson was actually Dixon's editor on Detective Comics, as I recall. And Gorfinkel was the editor on Birds of Prey. I think Dixon has some respect for them since he mentions them by name. He didn't mention anybody from the Murder/Fugitive era by name....

    I liked Murder and Fugitive when they came out, and I was really enjoying both Rucka's Detective Comics and Brubaker's Batman titles at the time. I can see Dixon's point about how he wasn't treated equally in that crossover, though. When he talks about the 3 day summit for that event, I'm just guessing the "one guy who tried to run the whole meeting" was probably Greg Rucka. Not knowing who the villain was going to be ahead of time for "Murder/Fugitive" definitely sounds like a serious problem. It sounds to me like Dixon was talking about an initial meeting, months before "Murderer" came out, and I'm guessing they probably came up with the finale in a following summit meeting, without Dixon present.
    Last edited by kevink31593; 06-25-2020 at 07:50 PM.
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  15. #255

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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I was re-reading the Robin books from R.I.P.... and I stumbled across the part of that story where two corrupt GCPD detectives, Cavallo and Weiss, get arrested and it starts a police strike.

    It *is* weird when real world events echo comic events from years ago...
    When Hurricane Katrina devastated New Orleans in 2005, I'll admit it made me think of No Man's Land.
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