Post-Crisis, Pre-52 Appreciation 2020

[millernumber1]

So I'm finally getting around to some of the lead-in stuff to Knightfall that I've never read before.

Read Sword of Azrael for the first time and now I'm in the stretch of BATMAN/TEC where Bruce is first feeling overwhelmed and sick.

Honestly, it's kind of funny, I expected a much slower burn, but the stuff Batman goes through in the pre-Knightfall stretch might actually be worse than what follows. The level of blood loss is so ridiculous it almost slips into parody. (And given Dixon's "the General" arc, I'm not entirely sure he wasn't going for parody.) I can suspend disbelief through most of Knightfall...but some of these issues, I think there's no way Batman should be alive, even by comic book standards!

Are those sections of Batman/Tec collected in the new trades?

I do think that the height from which Bruce falls with his back actually broken was ludicrous.

[David Walton]

Are those sections of Batman/Tec collected in the new trades?

It's collected in the prelude to Knightfall collection. But I'm reading it on DC Universe, just going by the solicits for the TPB, which lists BATMAN 484-91 and TEC 654-58.

I do think that the height from which Bruce falls with his back actually broken was ludicrous.

Yeah, you're right. It's probably about even all things considered. But the blood loss...good grief! Batman must have extra pints stored up somewhere. There's a LOT of "Batman is too exhausted to physically continue but pulls off one last badass KO punch through sheer force of will" moments. Not a big problem, this being comics and all, except for them coming so closely one after the other. Probably read a bit differently on a monthly schedule...

In some ways, I'm glad I didn't read the prelude to Knightfall back in the day, because it makes the main storyline come across as a bit repetitive in places.

[millernumber1]

It's collected in the prelude to Knightfall collection. But I'm reading it on DC Universe, just going by the solicits for the TPB, which lists BATMAN 484-91 and TEC 654-58.

Yeah, you're right. It's probably about even all things considered. But the blood loss...good grief! Batman must have extra pints stored up somewhere. There's a LOT of "Batman is too exhausted to physically continue but pulls off one last badass KO punch through sheer force of will" moments. Not a big problem, this being comics and all, except for them coming so closely one after the other. Probably read a bit differently on a monthly schedule...

In some ways, I'm glad I didn't read the prelude to Knightfall back in the day, because it makes the main storyline come across as a bit repetitive in places.

Very cool. I can't recall if I've read those Prelude to Knightfall issues.

I do think Batman has extra pints stored. That definitely fits his attempt to prepare for everything, and blood loss seems like a sensible to plan for in a Batman.

I don't know if I could do a full Batman Knightfall readthrough. I've only managed it in chunks. It's why I love the radio drama so much. It's such a brilliant condensation of the whole story.

[Coco Loco]

V
I don't know if I could do a full Batman Knightfall readthrough. I've only managed it in chunks. It's why I love the radio drama so much. It's such a brilliant condensation of the whole story.

I really wish they'd get the audio drama on the iTunes Store or on Spotify. It's kind of serialized in chunks on YouTube but it would be great to have it all in one place.

[millernumber1]

I really wish they'd get the audio drama on the iTunes Store or on Spotify. It's kind of serialized in chunks on YouTube but it would be great to have it all in one place.

Yeah. My guess is they have some rights issues. I personally advocated to some of the people on DCUniverse to get it as a streaming option, along with all the Graphic Audio books like Green Lantern: Sleepers or No Man's Land, and of course the Death of Superman radio series by the same people as Knightfall, but no luck yet.

[Wrestler]

So I'm finally getting around to some of the lead-in stuff to Knightfall that I've never read before.

Read Sword of Azrael for the first time and now I'm in the stretch of BATMAN/TEC where Bruce is first feeling overwhelmed and sick.

Honestly, it's kind of funny, I expected a much slower burn, but the stuff Batman goes through in the pre-Knightfall stretch might actually be worse than what follows. The level of blood loss is so ridiculous it almost slips into parody. (And given Dixon's "the General" arc, I'm not entirely sure he wasn't going for parody.) I can suspend disbelief through most of Knightfall...but some of these issues, I think there's no way Batman should be alive, even by comic book standards!

Good one man, recently I've read the Prelude to Knightfall, Knightquest, Knightsend with Prodigal and Troika, Batman: Anarky, Azrael #3-14 to understand his part on Contagion, Contagion, The Chalice, Legacy, Azrael #36-39 (again, to understand his part with Bane in Cataclysm), Cataclysm, Aftershock, Road to No Man's Land Volume 2 and No Man's Land to finish it, it was a good marathon of reading.

Now I've been reading some early issues of the modern age trying to improve my chronological reading order.

[David Walton]

Good one man, recently I've read the Prelude to Knightfall, Knightquest, Knightsend with Prodigal and Troika, Batman: Anarky, Azrael #3-14 to understand his part on Contagion, Contagion, The Chalice, Legacy, Azrael #36-39 (again, to understand his part with Bane in Cataclysm), Cataclysm, Aftershock, Road to No Man's Land Volume 2 and No Man's Land to finish it, it was a good marathon of reading.

Now I've been reading some early issues of the modern age trying to improve my chronological reading order.

Wow, you've been busy! I'm hoping to read through all of it, too. That was the era that got me into Batman comics and I love all of the crossovers (some more than others). It was such a great time for the Bat-books and the Bat-family.

Reading Azrael's origin for the first time was great. I'd seen it recounted, of course, but it's not the same. Quesada's art is striking, especially that fight between Batman and Azrael in the snow. Love the panel sequence where Batman dodges a strike, wraps Azrael's sword in his cape, and discards the weapon. And I got a much better sense of why Bruce saw so much of himself in Jean Paul Valley, mostly through Alfred's eyes (since Bruce's encounters with Jean Paul were actually limited by comparison).

[David Walton]

Vengeance of Bane is one of the most perfect villain origin stories ever written. Dixon at his absolute best.

[millernumber1]

Wow, you've been busy! I'm hoping to read through all of it, too. That was the era that got me into Batman comics and I love all of the crossovers (some more than others). It was such a great time for the Bat-books and the Bat-family.

Reading Azrael's origin for the first time was great. I'd seen it recounted, of course, but it's not the same. Quesada's art is striking, especially that fight between Batman and Azrael in the snow. Love the panel sequence where Batman dodges a strike, wraps Azrael's sword in his cape, and discards the weapon. And I got a much better sense of why Bruce saw so much of himself in Jean Paul Valley, mostly through Alfred's eyes (since Bruce's encounters with Jean Paul were actually limited by comparison).

Oh, my, I should really read this. I'm daunted a bit by how poor the replications of the art is by report, though. I do love the idea of Bruce and Azrael parellels.

[millernumber1]

Vengeance of Bane is one of the most perfect villain origin stories ever written. Dixon at his absolute best.

Oh, my, yes. Really love that one, and the second one shot. I also (maybe unpopular) really like the way King referenced it in I Am Suicide.

[godisawesome]

Vengeance of Bane is one of the most perfect villain origin stories ever written. Dixon at his absolute best.

I think what really sells it is that it’s only a few degrees away from being a revolutionary anti-hero origin, but stays true to a totally amoral, though not quite immoral, character in Bane - you can see this guy has all the formidable traits of both great heroes and great villains, but he comes into being in such an inhuman and nihilistic setting, and has only himself to turn to, that his entirely understandable self-centeredness makes him capable of anything.

He has enough admirable traits to engross a reader, but is so fundamentally uninterested and disconnected from the usual moral paradigm everyone else operates on that he is at once both comparable to a demon and yet, to use his own words in later Dixon-penned work, he’s also almost innocent in his lack of innocence, if that makes sense.

He truly does operate off a bluntly pragmatic, self-motivated, and self-interested personal code. He!s a great example of a Byronic Villain - he’s got all the stylins of a Byronic Anti-Hero, but the story has no problem acknowledging he’s a bad guy.

[millernumber1]

I think what really sells it is that it’s only a few degrees away from being a revolutionary anti-hero origin, but stays true to a totally amoral, though not quite immoral, character in Bane - you can see this guy has all the formidable traits of both great heroes and great villains, but he comes into being in such an inhuman and nihilistic setting, and has only himself to turn to, that his entirely understandable self-centeredness makes him capable of anything.

He has enough admirable traits to engross a reader, but is so fundamentally uninterested and disconnected from the usual moral paradigm everyone else operates on that he is at once both comparable to a demon and yet, to use his own words in later Dixon-penned work, he’s also almost innocent in his lack of innocence, if that makes sense.

He truly does operate off a bluntly pragmatic, self-motivated, and self-interested personal code. He!s a great example of a Byronic Villain - he’s got all the stylins of a Byronic Anti-Hero, but the story has no problem acknowledging he’s a bad guy.

Well said! Even though the relatively recent Bane: Conquest story wasn't nearly as powerful as Vengeance of Bane, I did love that in the end, Batman confronts Bane with the contradiction between his idea of himself and innocent, and the fact of his actions.

[David Walton]

Oh, my, yes. Really love that one, and the second one shot. I also (maybe unpopular) really like the way King referenced it in I Am Suicide.

The second one-shot was great. I love how Bane is originally all "No one can beat me, I've got Venom!" and then he's like "getting my ass kicked by Az-Bats doesn't count, I was on Venom!" What a whiner.

I love King's interpretation of Bane's time in solitary confinement, but (if memory serves) he kind of shied away from Bane having a vision of his future perfect self and I didn't like the omission if it was intended as a retcon.

I think what really sells it is that it’s only a few degrees away from being a revolutionary anti-hero origin, but stays true to a totally amoral, though not quite immoral, character in Bane - you can see this guy has all the formidable traits of both great heroes and great villains, but he comes into being in such an inhuman and nihilistic setting, and has only himself to turn to, that his entirely understandable self-centeredness makes him capable of anything.

He has enough admirable traits to engross a reader, but is so fundamentally uninterested and disconnected from the usual moral paradigm everyone else operates on that he is at once both comparable to a demon and yet, to use his own words in later Dixon-penned work, he’s also almost innocent in his lack of innocence, if that makes sense.

He truly does operate off a bluntly pragmatic, self-motivated, and self-interested personal code. He!s a great example of a Byronic Villain - he’s got all the stylins of a Byronic Anti-Hero, but the story has no problem acknowledging he’s a bad guy.

I've been trying to figure out how to make the same point but I'm glad you beat me to it because you did it so much better than I could have.

I think it's interesting that in the rush to make villain-centric live action films, Bane hasn't even gotten consideration when his origin is probably best suited to that kind of project.

Well said! Even though the relatively recent Bane: Conquest story wasn't nearly as powerful as Vengeance of Bane, I did love that in the end, Batman confronts Bane with the contradiction between his idea of himself and innocent, and the fact of his actions.

I thought Conquest was a bit of a chore to read through, with an ending that deserves a much better story than the one it's attached to.

[godisawesome]

The second one-shot was great. I love how Bane is originally all "No one can beat me, I've got Venom!" and then he's like "getting my ass kicked by Az-Bats doesn't count, I was on Venom!" What a whiner.

I love King's interpretation of Bane's time in solitary confinement, but (if memory serves) he kind of shied away from Bane having a vision of his future perfect self and I didn't like the omission if it was intended as a retcon.



I've been trying to figure out how to make the same point but I'm glad you beat me to it because you did it so much better than I could have.

I think it's interesting that in the rush to make villain-centric live action films, Bane hasn't even gotten consideration when his origin is probably best suited to that kind of project.



I thought Conquest was a bit of a chore to read through, with an ending that deserves a much better story than the one it's attached to.

Conquest is weird, because it feels like a Late Silver Age/Bronze Age Story in both writing and art. The beginning idea of some maniac having imprisoned both Batman and Bane and coming to regret it within hours of not minutes? Good. Bane having scruples towards young children and babies because that’s one area he cannot bring himself to deny empathy towards? Good. The rigmarole to connect those two sequences and ideas? Skippable.

I honestly always loved the idea of Bane going after Ra’s Al Ghul after Legacy, as a kind of inevitable and bloody sequel to Bane of the Demon. It’s a shame that didn’t get a mini-series for it.

[David Walton]

Conquest is weird, because it feels like a Late Silver Age/Bronze Age Story in both writing and art. The beginning idea of some maniac having imprisoned both Batman and Bane and coming to regret it within hours of not minutes? Good. Bane having scruples towards young children and babies because that’s one area he cannot bring himself to deny empathy towards? Good. The rigmarole to connect those two sequences and ideas? Skippable.

I honestly always loved the idea of Bane going after Ra’s Al Ghul after Legacy, as a kind of inevitable and bloody sequel to Bane of the Demon. It’s a shame that didn’t get a mini-series for it.

Oh, yeah, that would be great. At least we got the prequel Bane of the Demon....