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  1. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevink31593 View Post
    I've watched a few of those "Ask Chuck Dixon" videos before, I see them pop up in my Facebook feed every so often. I enjoy listening to what he has to say, even though I don't always agree with him 100%. I grew up enjoying reading almost everything he wrote for the Batverse in the 1990s, as it came out. (The first three Batman comics I ever bought and read were Batman #467-469, the "Shadow Box" arc, written by Dixon. I bought it in a 3-pack at KB Toys at my local shopping mall when I was 10 years old, shortly after BTAS premiered.)

    Anyways, I thought this video was a nice behind the scenes recap from Dixon's point of view, of the Bat crossover era of 1990s and early 2000s, so I thought it worth posting here. Some things that stood out to me:

    I loved hearing him talk about Knightfall, it sounds like he really had run on that storyline, and the lead up to it.

    Dixon's comment about his taking the "lead" for most of Legacy, because Doug Moench and Alan Grant were getting tired of crossovers. I recall right after Legacy ended, there was a "From the Den" column from Denny O'Neil that was featured in every single Batman related book one month. Denny essentially announced that effective immediately, there would be no crossovers for 18 months, story arcs within series would be 3 issues max, and every month at least one Bat book would have a single part story. In retrospect, I think it's obvious that Denny was just taking care of his writers, keeping them happy. I think the readers benefited also, I thought there was a good variety of stories during that period.

    "The junior woodchuck editors Scott Peterson, Jordan Gorfinkel, and Darren" comment got a chuckle out of me. I think I've seen or read other Dixon interviews in the past, where he talks about how the "junior editors" gradually took over from Denny O'Neil in the late 1990s. Peterson was actually Dixon's editor on Detective Comics, as I recall. And Gorfinkel was the editor on Birds of Prey. I think Dixon has some respect for them since he mentions them by name. He didn't mention anybody from the Murder/Fugitive era by name....

    I liked Murder and Fugitive when they came out, and I was really enjoying both Rucka's Detective Comics and Brubaker's Batman titles at the time. I can see Dixon's point about how he wasn't treated equally in that crossover, though. When he talks about the 3 day summit for that event, I'm just guessing the "one guy who tried to run the whole meeting" was probably Greg Rucka. Not knowing who the villain was going to be ahead of time for "Murder/Fugitive" definitely sounds like a serious problem. It sounds to me like Dixon was talking about an initial meeting, months before "Murderer" came out, and I'm guessing they probably came up with the finale in a following summit meeting, without Dixon present.
    I watch all of them, hoping to hear more about Stephanie Brown. There was also a bit more fleshed out plans for Dixon's Blue Beetle Incorporated/Stephanie Brown Robin 6-month plan in this latest video, which I always love to hear.

    Knightfall is remembered and beloved for a reason, I think, when nothing else but No Man's Land from that era is as much, though thankfully the new trades have made that period much more accessible again. Wish they'd release more of his Robin stuff, so I can get people to read Steph's early history...

    I did not know about the "no more crossovers" thing from Denny, but I like hearing that kind of thing. I do wonder, though, about legacy from those kinds of choices. It's very fun to read the comics of that era, but how many of them "matter" in the ways that a crossover matters? How many of them get collected?

    Dixon greatly respects Scott Peterson and Jordan Gorfinkel - he talks about them affectionately all the time. He was REALLY mad at his editor at the end of his time on Robin - and I'm not sure if he meant Matt Idelson, the main editor, or the associate editor, Michael Wright, because someone in that team refused to let him do his Tim as Blue Beetle/Steph as Robin arc, but literally the issue after Dixon left (101), they made Steph an alternate universe Robin in a very, very weak storyline (with some great concepts, but very poorly executed). I can't say I blame Dixon for being extremely frustrated with that whole situation, let alone what happened to Steph in War Games and Bludhaven later.

    I still like Bruce Wayne, Murderer and Fugitive, because I love the character of Sasha Bordeaux, and it's full of really rich character and mood stuff. However, it is also very messy, and I think the fact that there's a ton of unnecessary stuff going on during Fugitive, and the villain isn't really developed until the very end, feeling almost like...they decided late in the story process, and thus didn't craft a well constructed mystery from the start.

    I think the driver of Murderer/Fugitive was, indeed, Rucka - the other option is Brubaker, who wrote the afterward in the Fugitive trade - but the interesting thing is that Rucka himself has expressed extreme frustration with editorial on Fugitive, saying that his last several issues of Detective in that event were all by different artists, which indicates editorial interference in a massive way. I think it's clear that the period after Denny O'Neil left was not a very good one for the creators, even if I still like some of the stuff that came out then.
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  2. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I watch all of them, hoping to hear more about Stephanie Brown. There was also a bit more fleshed out plans for Dixon's Blue Beetle Incorporated/Stephanie Brown Robin 6-month plan in this latest video, which I always love to hear.

    Knightfall is remembered and beloved for a reason, I think, when nothing else but No Man's Land from that era is as much, though thankfully the new trades have made that period much more accessible again. Wish they'd release more of his Robin stuff, so I can get people to read Steph's early history...

    I did not know about the "no more crossovers" thing from Denny, but I like hearing that kind of thing. I do wonder, though, about legacy from those kinds of choices. It's very fun to read the comics of that era, but how many of them "matter" in the ways that a crossover matters? How many of them get collected?

    Dixon greatly respects Scott Peterson and Jordan Gorfinkel - he talks about them affectionately all the time. He was REALLY mad at his editor at the end of his time on Robin - and I'm not sure if he meant Matt Idelson, the main editor, or the associate editor, Michael Wright, because someone in that team refused to let him do his Tim as Blue Beetle/Steph as Robin arc, but literally the issue after Dixon left (101), they made Steph an alternate universe Robin in a very, very weak storyline (with some great concepts, but very poorly executed). I can't say I blame Dixon for being extremely frustrated with that whole situation, let alone what happened to Steph in War Games and Bludhaven later.

    I still like Bruce Wayne, Murderer and Fugitive, because I love the character of Sasha Bordeaux, and it's full of really rich character and mood stuff. However, it is also very messy, and I think the fact that there's a ton of unnecessary stuff going on during Fugitive, and the villain isn't really developed until the very end, feeling almost like...they decided late in the story process, and thus didn't craft a well constructed mystery from the start.

    I think the driver of Murderer/Fugitive was, indeed, Rucka - the other option is Brubaker, who wrote the afterward in the Fugitive trade - but the interesting thing is that Rucka himself has expressed extreme frustration with editorial on Fugitive, saying that his last several issues of Detective in that event were all by different artists, which indicates editorial interference in a massive way. I think it's clear that the period after Denny O'Neil left was not a very good one for the creators, even if I still like some of the stuff that came out then.
    Fugitive always felt stronger *for me* than Murderer, perhaps because I just never cottoned-on to Sasha Bordeaux... but also because I think I actually only really got into it at the tail end, when they’d figured out who they wanted for the murderer, and actually started telling that story. It’s easy to miss complications and sloppy writing when you just end up missing them entirely.

    By the by, am I wrong in thinking that the immediate post-Fugitive period is edging close enough to War Games, Titans/Young Justice: Graduation Day, Identity Crisis, Infinite Crisis, and all that to maybe reflect the point where DC as a whole began to see the transition to the “Didio era”?

    I think I remember first becoming aware of editorial chaos occasionally wreaking havoc around this time period... which was unfortunate, as that was about the time I actually started to get enough of an allowance and enough comic locations to start buying.
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  3. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Fugitive always felt stronger *for me* than Murderer, perhaps because I just never cottoned-on to Sasha Bordeaux... but also because I think I actually only really got into it at the tail end, when they’d figured out who they wanted for the murderer, and actually started telling that story. It’s easy to miss complications and sloppy writing when you just end up missing them entirely.

    By the by, am I wrong in thinking that the immediate post-Fugitive period is edging close enough to War Games, Titans/Young Justice: Graduation Day, Identity Crisis, Infinite Crisis, and all that to maybe reflect the point where DC as a whole began to see the transition to the “Didio era”?

    I think I remember first becoming aware of editorial chaos occasionally wreaking havoc around this time period... which was unfortunate, as that was about the time I actually started to get enough of an allowance and enough comic locations to start buying.
    I'm curious - what about Sasha turned you off? As I think I've said, Tec 767 was one of my first comics that I ever loved, and Sasha was a huge part of that love, but I know she has never had a very strong fandom.

    I think Fugitive has some weak points when Bruce is on the run and they treat the issue as a status quo shift rather than an ongoing murder, especially since it's a status quo that's so miserable (but it is "Batman is all alone, no stupid Batfamily to bother him, so maybe that would be preferred by a lot of people).

    I mean, Bob Schreck is a big part of War Games and the editorial decisions that made this period so miserable in general for Bat-fans, so I don't want to blame everything on Didio. But I do think he's definitely involved right around then.

    Even in times of editorial chaos, there can be really good writing or art. It's the importance of "every comic is someone's first" - which I still don't think should mean "write so you don't have any questions", but rather, "write so people will want to know more."
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  4. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I'm curious - what about Sasha turned you off? As I think I've said, Tec 767 was one of my first comics that I ever loved, and Sasha was a huge part of that love, but I know she has never had a very strong fandom.

    I think Fugitive has some weak points when Bruce is on the run and they treat the issue as a status quo shift rather than an ongoing murder, especially since it's a status quo that's so miserable (but it is "Batman is all alone, no stupid Batfamily to bother him, so maybe that would be preferred by a lot of people).

    I mean, Bob Schreck is a big part of War Games and the editorial decisions that made this period so miserable in general for Bat-fans, so I don't want to blame everything on Didio. But I do think he's definitely involved right around then.

    Even in times of editorial chaos, there can be really good writing or art. It's the importance of "every comic is someone's first" - which I still don't think should mean "write so you don't have any questions", but rather, "write so people will want to know more."
    I was burgeoning BatCat fan who randomly picked up the book and wondered who the heck this character was, because that managed to fit into a weird blind spot in my comic knowledge, and dropping in with that particular issues when my money and comic-shop situation was still spotty meant that I lost track of her until after her death was faked - my initial experience with the arc was basically the very first book of Murderer, and then the finale arc of Fugitive.

    I just kind of wound up chalking her in as some creator-specific project I didn’t need to pay attention to, and she was off in Checkmate by the time I finally got to regularly grabbing comics fresh from the stands instead of in sporadic visits to a bookstore or library.

    Thanks for the Bob Schreck info; I knew that the War Games situation wasn’t Didio exactly, but I forgot who Schreck was... and now can’t stop seeing max Schreck from Batman Returns in DC’s editorial office pitching ideas in Christopher Walken’s voice.

    Also: I finally got around to reading Blades. I love the idea of Batman seeing some new vigilante in Gotham, one who even uses a lethal weapon as his primary tool... then saying “You look like Zorro. I like that. Take it away!”
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  5. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I was burgeoning BatCat fan who randomly picked up the book and wondered who the heck this character was, because that managed to fit into a weird blind spot in my comic knowledge, and dropping in with that particular issues when my money and comic-shop situation was still spotty meant that I lost track of her until after her death was faked - my initial experience with the arc was basically the very first book of Murderer, and then the finale arc of Fugitive.

    I just kind of wound up chalking her in as some creator-specific project I didn’t need to pay attention to, and she was off in Checkmate by the time I finally got to regularly grabbing comics fresh from the stands instead of in sporadic visits to a bookstore or library.

    Thanks for the Bob Schreck info; I knew that the War Games situation wasn’t Didio exactly, but I forgot who Schreck was... and now can’t stop seeing max Schreck from Batman Returns in DC’s editorial office pitching ideas in Christopher Walken’s voice.

    Also: I finally got around to reading Blades. I love the idea of Batman seeing some new vigilante in Gotham, one who even uses a lethal weapon as his primary tool... then saying “You look like Zorro. I like that. Take it away!”
    I mean, I'm a BatCat fan, too. It's a little weird for me, since in my head, I "know" where her character is going now - to Checkmate and Mr. Terrific - but I still like the connection between Sasha and Bruce. Even with the way Rucka writes Bruce (so utterly incapable of having an honest relationship). I do think that the scattered nature of the story meant that her story, in particular, was really damaged - she just sits in jail for a long time, then all of a sudden Bruce has wrapped up his trial and she gets "killed". So it makes sense that the story just feels really weird. I love Sasha primarily from Rucka's Tec and then Checkmate - I've avoided the OMAC project and the whole thing with the Superman books.
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  6. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I mean, I'm a BatCat fan, too. It's a little weird for me, since in my head, I "know" where her character is going now - to Checkmate and Mr. Terrific - but I still like the connection between Sasha and Bruce. Even with the way Rucka writes Bruce (so utterly incapable of having an honest relationship). I do think that the scattered nature of the story meant that her story, in particular, was really damaged - she just sits in jail for a long time, then all of a sudden Bruce has wrapped up his trial and she gets "killed". So it makes sense that the story just feels really weird. I love Sasha primarily from Rucka's Tec and then Checkmate - I've avoided the OMAC project and the whole thing with the Superman books.
    I think simply missing her debut and losing contact with the storyline for the months where she still played a part just meant I had no reason to care about her by the time I got back in, because she was gone and had mostly served as a narration tool. In a way, it would be like if someone read those first New 52 Harper Rowe appearances, then dropped comics through both Eternals, and came back in at Rebirth.

    For what it’s worth, I actually *do p* get the appeal of the character. I just find myself more interested in pulling up Legends of The Dark Knight issues or reading up on the other Batfamily members that interest me more with DC Universe.

    It’s interesting you noted the Rucka thing, and the part of Fugitive that revolves around Maximum OverJerk over Batman - one of the benefits of my stop-start reading of entire event meant that the bulk of the Fugitive story I read is when he’s back with the family and less of an @$$hole.

    That part of Fugitive I could see maybe disenchanting some of the writers a bit when they were all supposed to keep the most lucrative and central character to the mythos at logger heads with their other lead characters, especially when a fully coordinated Bat-family assessment with a cooperating Bruce pretty much had to (and *did*) solve the mystery pretty quickly.

    If they ever adapted the arc to an animated movie or TV show, there’s plenty of room to improve it.
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  7. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I think simply missing her debut and losing contact with the storyline for the months where she still played a part just meant I had no reason to care about her by the time I got back in, because she was gone and had mostly served as a narration tool. In a way, it would be like if someone read those first New 52 Harper Rowe appearances, then dropped comics through both Eternals, and came back in at Rebirth.

    For what it’s worth, I actually *do p* get the appeal of the character. I just find myself more interested in pulling up Legends of The Dark Knight issues or reading up on the other Batfamily members that interest me more with DC Universe.

    It’s interesting you noted the Rucka thing, and the part of Fugitive that revolves around Maximum OverJerk over Batman - one of the benefits of my stop-start reading of entire event meant that the bulk of the Fugitive story I read is when he’s back with the family and less of an @$$hole.

    That part of Fugitive I could see maybe disenchanting some of the writers a bit when they were all supposed to keep the most lucrative and central character to the mythos at logger heads with their other lead characters, especially when a fully coordinated Bat-family assessment with a cooperating Bruce pretty much had to (and *did*) solve the mystery pretty quickly.

    If they ever adapted the arc to an animated movie or TV show, there’s plenty of room to improve it.
    Ah. I read Sasha's story all in bits and pieces - at some point, I really should do a whole read through - and maybe force myself to read the OMAC and Superman stuff I've avoided, from New Gotham all the way to JSA vs. Kobra. It's all clear in my head from multiple readings of the pieces, but I haven't yet done the work. I've actually been toying with at least prepping a full Rucka DC readthrough, the major chunks that connect to each other. Like Dixon, Rucka loved to seed pieces and characters into his stories that he'd revisit later - things like Whisper Adair's henchmen becoming one of Kate's allies in Elegy, the long saga of Renee and Two-Face, Helena's relationship to the Question, etc. Seeing all those pieces in a row, from Detective Comics, to Gotham Central, to Wonder Woman, to Checkmate, to Detective Comics again - with other pieces thrown in there somewhere - I think would be a pretty magnificent tapestry. But it'd also be extremely exhausting.

    I do think that there's a very strong chance Dixon was right, and the long chunks of Murderer/Fugitive which seem to be spinning their wheels are because editorial was still deciding who the murderer was. You'd definitely want to streamline it a LOT if you adapted it.
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  8. #263

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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I watch all of them, hoping to hear more about Stephanie Brown. There was also a bit more fleshed out plans for Dixon's Blue Beetle Incorporated/Stephanie Brown Robin 6-month plan in this latest video, which I always love to hear.

    Knightfall is remembered and beloved for a reason, I think, when nothing else but No Man's Land from that era is as much, though thankfully the new trades have made that period much more accessible again. Wish they'd release more of his Robin stuff, so I can get people to read Steph's early history...

    I did not know about the "no more crossovers" thing from Denny, but I like hearing that kind of thing. I do wonder, though, about legacy from those kinds of choices. It's very fun to read the comics of that era, but how many of them "matter" in the ways that a crossover matters? How many of them get collected?

    Dixon greatly respects Scott Peterson and Jordan Gorfinkel - he talks about them affectionately all the time. He was REALLY mad at his editor at the end of his time on Robin - and I'm not sure if he meant Matt Idelson, the main editor, or the associate editor, Michael Wright, because someone in that team refused to let him do his Tim as Blue Beetle/Steph as Robin arc, but literally the issue after Dixon left (101), they made Steph an alternate universe Robin in a very, very weak storyline (with some great concepts, but very poorly executed). I can't say I blame Dixon for being extremely frustrated with that whole situation, let alone what happened to Steph in War Games and Bludhaven later.

    I still like Bruce Wayne, Murderer and Fugitive, because I love the character of Sasha Bordeaux, and it's full of really rich character and mood stuff. However, it is also very messy, and I think the fact that there's a ton of unnecessary stuff going on during Fugitive, and the villain isn't really developed until the very end, feeling almost like...they decided late in the story process, and thus didn't craft a well constructed mystery from the start.

    I think the driver of Murderer/Fugitive was, indeed, Rucka - the other option is Brubaker, who wrote the afterward in the Fugitive trade - but the interesting thing is that Rucka himself has expressed extreme frustration with editorial on Fugitive, saying that his last several issues of Detective in that event were all by different artists, which indicates editorial interference in a massive way. I think it's clear that the period after Denny O'Neil left was not a very good one for the creators, even if I still like some of the stuff that came out then.
    This is from Detective Comics #702, the Epilogue issue to Legacy, cover dated October 1996. This same "From the Den" column was printed in all the other Bat books that month also. Sure enough, Denny stuck to his word and Cataclysm began exactly 18 months later with issues cover dated April 1998. I recall he did a similar "From the Den" the month before Cataclysm started. In this column, he states a few reasons for stopping crossovers for a bit, not including the fact that Alan Grant and Doug Moench were getting tired of them. But I think that had to also be a consideration, in light of Dixon's comment the Ask Chuck Dixon video. It's true a lot of stories during that 18 month stretch "didn't matter" and were not collected (until recently*), but it was a different time, not everything got collected back then. I think the trend of collecting everything really took off in the 2000s. (*There is an upcoming "Batman: Knight Out" Hardcover due out in September 2020, reprinting Detective Comics #703-715, #717, and #718. The Moench/Jones issues have been collected, and Shadow of the Bat trades have been coming out.)

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  9. #264
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    Looking back at the Bat-books and their editorial boards, I feel like there’ve been three major (But roughly defined) eras in terms of creative freedom and quality among the writers that I’ve been able to actually buy or borrow (from the library) in my life that all happened before Flashpoint:

    -The O’Neil editorial era: Denny runs a an expertly managed team of writers who generally cooperate freakishly well, and where “work-horse” writers like Dixon tend to excel the most in comparison to other era.

    -The Transition period between O’Neil and the RIP-Inc era: Editorial vacillates a bit, doesn’t do *too* bad, but isn’t quite as positively cooperative as the O’Neil era, and hasn’t yet fully transitioned to the “Superstar” era that’s coming. Consistency is much more variable, and you get stuff like War Games, Robin OYL, and Pushback... but you also get the beginning of Morrison’s run, the rise of Simone on BoP, and rough but still pretty good stuff like Kush and Under The Red Hood.

    - The “Super Star” RIP-Inc. era: Editorial doesn’t really manage the teams of writers in a cooperative, cohesive group... but it does gather enough freakishly good writers that it doesn’t really need that and it enforces enough cooperation that it’s basically a Renaissance of Bat books. Yeah, you can tell that sometimes Morrison is on a different page from other writers, and several of the books don’t mind a bit of jobbing other characters to bulk up their stars... but it’s *really* hard to find a flaw in a team of writers that goes: Morrison, Snyder, Dini, Rucka, Nicieza, Yost, and Miller. It’s like the “6 Horseman” of BatBooks, for a WCW reference.


    Seriously, that last little epoch right before Flashpoint feels like it’s an Allstar team: Dini’s on fire pretty much the whole time, and yet he’s somewhat overshadowed by Morrison and Snyder, and Nicieza, Yost, Rucka, and Miller are making the ancillary books magnificent.
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  10. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Looking back at the Bat-books and their editorial boards, I feel like there’ve been four major (But roughly defined) eras in terms of creative freedom and quality among the writers that I’ve been able to actually buy or borrow (from the library) in my life that all happened before Flashpoint:

    -The O’Neil editorial era: Denny runs a an expertly managed team of writers who generally cooperate freakishly well, and where “work-horse” writers like Dixon tend to excel the most in comparison to other era.

    -The Transition period between O’Neil and the RIP-Inc era: Editorial vacillates a bit, doesn’t do *too* bad, but isn’t quite as positively cooperative as the O’Neil era, and hasn’t yet fully transitioned to the “Superstar” era that’s coming. Consistency is much more variable, and you get stuff like War Games, Robin OYL, and Pushback... but you also get the beginning of Morrison’s run, the rise of Simone on BoP, and rough but still pretty good stuff like Kush and Under The Red Hood.

    - The “Super Star” RIP-Inc. era: Editorial doesn’t really manage the teams of writers in a cooperative, cohesive group... but it does gather enough freakishly good writers that it doesn’t really need that and it enforces enough cooperation that it’s basically a Renaissance of Bat books. Yeah, you can tell that sometimes Morrison is on a different page from other writers, and several of the books don’t mind a bit of jobbing other characters to bulk up their stars... but it’s *really* hard to find a flaw in a team of writers that goes: Morrison, Snyder, Dini, Rucka, Nicieza, Yost, and Miller. It’s like the “6 Horseman” of BatBooks, for a WCW reference.


    Seriously, that last little epoch right before Flashpoint feels like it’s an Allstar team: Dini’s on fire pretty much the whole time, and yet he’s somewhat overshadowed by Morrison and Snyder, and Nicieza, Yost, Rucka, and Miller are making the ancillary books magnificent.
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  11. #266
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevink31593 View Post
    This is from Detective Comics #702, the Epilogue issue to Legacy, cover dated October 1996. This same "From the Den" column was printed in all the other Bat books that month also. Sure enough, Denny stuck to his word and Cataclysm began exactly 18 months later with issues cover dated April 1998. I recall he did a similar "From the Den" the month before Cataclysm started. In this column, he states a few reasons for stopping crossovers for a bit, not including the fact that Alan Grant and Doug Moench were getting tired of them. But I think that had to also be a consideration, in light of Dixon's comment the Ask Chuck Dixon video. It's true a lot of stories during that 18 month stretch "didn't matter" and were not collected (until recently*), but it was a different time, not everything got collected back then. I think the trend of collecting everything really took off in the 2000s. (*There is an upcoming "Batman: Knight Out" Hardcover due out in September 2020, reprinting Detective Comics #703-715, #717, and #718. The Moench/Jones issues have been collected, and Shadow of the Bat trades have been coming out.)

    IMG_3841.jpg
    Awesome information! I love these kinds of peeks, and Denny's voice is dryly hilarious (the "neigh sayers" comment is fantastic).
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  12. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Did you miss one of the four? Or did you mean three?
    Changed half way through; started wanting to do four, then decided to stop at three.
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  13. #268

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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post

    I do think that there's a very strong chance Dixon was right, and the long chunks of Murderer/Fugitive which seem to be spinning their wheels are because editorial was still deciding who the murderer was. You'd definitely want to streamline it a LOT if you adapted it.
    My biggest problem with M/F is that Batman seemed utterly unconcerned with figuring out who actually killed Vesper until the last few issues. Even if one accepts that he had no interest in clearing his own name - this woman was murdered in his house, and he KNEW the killer was still at large. Hard to believe he wouldn't laser-focus on bringing her actual killer to justice.
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  14. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coco Loco View Post
    My biggest problem with M/F is that Batman seemed utterly unconcerned with figuring out who actually killed Vesper until the last few issues. Even if one accepts that he had no interest in clearing his own name - this woman was murdered in his house, and he KNEW the killer was still at large. Hard to believe he wouldn't laser-focus on bringing her actual killer to justice.
    I think - and maybe some of this is more head-canon than fact on the page - that Vesper's death triggered a break in Bruce (that was foreshadowed and built up to) that caused him to try to deny Bruce Wayne's existence. Acknowledging Vesper's murder, which was clearly done to attack Bruce Wayne, acknowledged the truth of who he was. Acknowledging Sasha and her plight in prison, acknowledged the truth of who he was. Depending on Dick, Babs, Tim, etc. blah, blah, blah. That's why he kept solving cases and avoiding his allies. It was after getting the call from the cop who worked his parents' case that he got through his issues and reconciled his two halves.
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  15. #270
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coco Loco View Post
    My biggest problem with M/F is that Batman seemed utterly unconcerned with figuring out who actually killed Vesper until the last few issues. Even if one accepts that he had no interest in clearing his own name - this woman was murdered in his house, and he KNEW the killer was still at large. Hard to believe he wouldn't laser-focus on bringing her actual killer to justice.
    The delay does make me think there was a real gap in the planning process. I think, as Bob says below, there was supposed to be a psychological aspect to it, but...

    I have the same problem with Murderer/Fugitive that I do with Office Down: Batman is supposed to be a great detective, but in both stories, he is pretty much completely useless as a detective. And I know it's all psychology, and these are supposed to be deeply traumatic events for Bruce, but I think those two events, especially right next to each other, needed to be much more carefully planned so Bruce's motivations weren't so frustrating.

    Quote Originally Posted by bob.schoonover View Post
    I think - and maybe some of this is more head-canon than fact on the page - that Vesper's death triggered a break in Bruce (that was foreshadowed and built up to) that caused him to try to deny Bruce Wayne's existence. Acknowledging Vesper's murder, which was clearly done to attack Bruce Wayne, acknowledged the truth of who he was. Acknowledging Sasha and her plight in prison, acknowledged the truth of who he was. Depending on Dick, Babs, Tim, etc. blah, blah, blah. That's why he kept solving cases and avoiding his allies. It was after getting the call from the cop who worked his parents' case that he got through his issues and reconciled his two halves.
    I think you're right - I just don't buy that Batman should do that. That pushes him way too far into the "crazy" or unbalanced territory, and decreases his heroism.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
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