Post-Crisis, Pre-52 Appreciation 2020

[godisawesome]

The delay does make me think there was a real gap in the planning process. I think, as Bob says below, there was supposed to be a psychological aspect to it, but...

I have the same problem with Murderer/Fugitive that I do with Office Down: Batman is supposed to be a great detective, but in both stories, he is pretty much completely useless as a detective. And I know it's all psychology, and these are supposed to be deeply traumatic events for Bruce, but I think those two events, especially right next to each other, needed to be much more carefully planned so Bruce's motivations weren't so frustrating.



I think you're right - I just don't buy that Batman should do that. That pushes him way too far into the "crazy" or unbalanced territory, and decreases his heroism.

That kind of breakdown would maybe fit better if it was placed somewhere around Jason’s death and Babs’s crippling, with something like Bruce being so obsessed with hunting down Joker that his priorities are messed up.

[Adset]

About to embark on a reading project I’ve wanted to do forever but never got around to: Birds of Prey from ‘98 (or ‘99). Quick question for the board: is the non-Dixon and Simone stuff worth reading? I believe there’s a brief run in-between Dixon and Simone, and some stuff after Simone left the book.

[millernumber1]

That kind of breakdown would maybe fit better if it was placed somewhere around Jason’s death and Babs’s crippling, with something like Bruce being so obsessed with hunting down Joker that his priorities are messed up.

Yeah. I dunno. I just get so frustrated with Bruce in Office Down and Murderer/Fugitive.

About to embark on a reading project I’ve wanted to do forever but never got around to: Birds of Prey from ‘98 (or ‘99). Quick question for the board: is the non-Dixon and Simone stuff worth reading? I believe there’s a brief run in-between Dixon and Simone, and some stuff after Simone left the book.

Um.

The two arcs between Dixon and Simone are not great. They're not, like, the worst, but they're also very frustrating because they're neither the well crafted pulp of Dixon, or the strong character work of Simone.

After Simone left, there were a couple of fill ins by Tony Bedard which were pretty fun, then an arc by Sean McKeever which I think is a worthy followup to Simone, and then Bedard took over for the last year of the title, and drove it into the ground with defeat after defeat. I've obviously read it, but I wouldn't rush to purchase them now (I have DCUniverse).

[Will Evans]

Something I always wandered.

When One Year Later occurred, why was Batgirl canceled.

Sure her storyline with reveal Lady Shiva as her mom came to a close. But why didn’t they follow through on a new status quo for Cassandra for her book for One Year Later, like everyone else’s book.

The ratings weren’t bad if I recall.

[bob.schoonover]

That kind of breakdown would maybe fit better if it was placed somewhere around Jason’s death and Babs’s crippling, with something like Bruce being so obsessed with hunting down Joker that his priorities are messed up.

M/F is the end of New Gotham (the post NML story). So Bruce's state of mind at the time of Vesper's murder would be having abandoned Gotham after Cataclysm wrecked his hometown (and actual home), come back to save the city only to have Sarah Essen murdered, deal with President Lex, Joker's Last Laugh, Gordon got shot, then this. Maybe it's not a Jason/Barbara two-fer, but I think it's fair to say his psyche should be pretty fraught (and that's even disregarding that fact that brains work weirdly sometimes and the thing that breaks you isn't the worst thing that happened to you). One also notes that Bruce's relationship with Vesper was as much about getting info on her investigation as it was pushing Sasha away, neither of which are pure motives for dating Vesper and inadvertently putting her in the crosshairs. More so than Jason's death or Barbara's injury, Vesper's death was because of Bruce.

Now, I agree with Miller that not solving the crime was a huge abrogation of Bruce's duty (in the superheroic sense of it - we never expect law enforcement to solve the murder of a loved one, and in fact it's almost always the case that they're formally barred from the investigation). As a piece of context, though, if you read the end of issue notes in the original 52 TPBs, Rucka comments about how Bruce was finally angst-free (more or less) and how it was about time - I have always read that as a comment about editorial influence and what he and Brubaker were or were not allowed to do, which probably colored how they could or couldn't make Fugitive work for a few months if Bruce couldn't be, you know, the opposite of an infantile rage monster

[ChangingStation]

Something I always wandered.

When One Year Later occurred, why was Batgirl canceled.

Sure her storyline with reveal Lady Shiva as her mom came to a close. But why didn’t they follow through on a new status quo for Cassandra for her book for One Year Later, like everyone else’s book.

The ratings weren’t bad if I recall.

When it comes down to it, sexism. A new Hawkgirl series was coming out and apparently there could only be so many female led series.

[millernumber1]

Something I always wandered.

When One Year Later occurred, why was Batgirl canceled.

Sure her storyline with reveal Lady Shiva as her mom came to a close. But why didn’t they follow through on a new status quo for Cassandra for her book for One Year Later, like everyone else’s book.

The ratings weren’t bad if I recall.

There are a lot of theories.

The one I think has most credence is: A new Batwoman was coming out, there was a LOT of confusion about that character (Devin Grayson and Greg Rucka were both supposed to write her, but neither knew about the other's potential series), a design was leaked before the character was debuted in the weekly 52 series, so that series had to be rewritten to feature her more prominantly sooner, and because Didio has...um...a THING about Batgirls (aka, he dislikes all the Batgirls who aren't Babs, and then proceeds to treat Babs and her series like trash), he or Bob Schreck (who I think was Bat-group editor at the time) cancelled her series to "prevent confusion".

We know for certain that editorial made it clear to the writers of Robin that Cass had to be a villain for One Year Later. Editorial mandate was behind nearly every single decision made from 2006-2009, at the very least (from interviews I just reread with Dixon), with the possible exception of what Morrison ended up doing.

[Will Evans]

Hawkgirl was just a continuation of the Hawkman series while Hawkman was still in space.

At the time before I figured that editorial was screwing over Cassandra. I thought TPTB were pulling a purposeful reversal on Cass and Shiva. Since Shiva was now One Year Later a good guy on the Birds of Prey team. While Cass was now a villain in Robin.

I actually reasoned with myself this was an undercover plan or something.




One thing I didn’t like was Onyx being dropped as the new Orpheus.

One thing I didn’t get is why is Dick traveling the world with Bruce, while Bludhaven just got nuked.

[millernumber1]

Hawkgirl was just a continuation of the Hawkman series while Hawkman was still in space.

At the time before I figured that editorial was screwing over Cassandra. I thought TPTB were pulling a purposeful reversal on Cass and Shiva. Since Shiva was now One Year Later a good guy on the Birds of Prey team. While Cass was now a villain in Robin.

I actually reasoned with myself this was an undercover plan or something.




One thing I didn’t like was Onyx being dropped as the new Orpheus.

One thing I didn’t get is why is Dick traveling the world with Bruce, while Bludhaven just got nuked.

So many things to dislike about OYL, honestly. I liked some things, like what happened with Birds of Prey, and the weekly 52, but as a whole, I think it really created way more negatives than positives (I feel the same way about the n52).

[godisawesome]

Cass’s series really does seem to have been cancelled as a preemptive move to “clear the deck” for Batwoman, out of paranoia about confusion or “market dilution.”

Somewhat ironically, I kind of think the closing arc created by the book’s pending doom led to an increase in quality under that team (since they weren’t the original team), and they ended the story in a way that was supposed to help set-up up her evil turn in OYL...

Only for Adam Beecher to get the marching orders to ignore Cass’s previous run, which really screwed up the entire point of making her go evil - I mean, I don’t think it was a good idea even conceptually, but I also firmly believe that intelligent and critical creativity could have at least exploited the purpose of taking a Batgirl with close ties to the family and try and exploit them as an antagonist.

Instead, Evil!Cass was basically a walking Dragon Lady archetype wasting even what genuine drama could have been used for her heel turn.

[millernumber1]

Cass’s series really does seem to have been cancelled as a preemptive move to “clear the deck” for Batwoman, out of paranoia about confusion or “market dilution.”

Somewhat ironically, I kind of think the closing arc created by the book’s pending doom led to an increase in quality under that team (since they weren’t the original team), and they ended the story in a way that was supposed to help set-up up her evil turn in OYL...

Only for Adam Beecher to get the marching orders to ignore Cass’s previous run, which really screwed up the entire point of making her go evil - I mean, I don’t think it was a good idea even conceptually, but I also firmly believe that intelligent and critical creativity could have at least exploited the purpose of taking a Batgirl with close ties to the family and try and exploit them as an antagonist.

Instead, Evil!Cass was basically a walking Dragon Lady archetype wasting even what genuine drama could have been used for her heel turn.

Yup. Much as I truly love 1986-2011 as a period in DC comics, the attitude that Didio and Schreck seemed to cultivate in their writers and fans towards the Bat-women is intensely frustrating.

I myself really don't like the "Shiva is Cass's mother" arc - it has some good ideas, but it's clearly a massive retcon (though it does make a certain amount of sense as a retcon, but it's clear to me that Peterson and Puckett did not intend Shiva to be her mom at all in the first three years of her run), and I end the run feeling really empty, instead of feeling like Cass has grown or accomplished what she deserves to accomplish.

But, compared to the Evil Cass arc, it's a bloody masterpiece.

[godisawesome]

Yup. Much as I truly love 1986-2011 as a period in DC comics, the attitude that Didio and Schreck seemed to cultivate in their writers and fans towards the Bat-women is intensely frustrating.

I myself really don't like the "Shiva is Cass's mother" arc - it has some good ideas, but it's clearly a massive retcon (though it does make a certain amount of sense as a retcon, but it's clear to me that Peterson and Puckett did not intend Shiva to be her mom at all in the first three years of her run), and I end the run feeling really empty, instead of feeling like Cass has grown or accomplished what she deserves to accomplish.

But, compared to the Evil Cass arc, it's a bloody masterpiece.

The thing that really undermined the Didio approach was that he viewed so many characters as interchangeable IPs - instead of seeing differentiation and proliferation, he saw arbitrarily designated scarcities and redundancies.

I do respect the guy for some decisions, but there’s a bunch of arbitrary opinions he held that he also seemed try and implement even as he both didn’t actually write them, and wasn’t a great writer for most of those characters even when he did get ahold of them.

The difference between a micro-manager and a hard-driving but successful manager kind of comes down to the old “never let perfect become the enemy of good” idea, especially in artistic businesses. And Didio, at his worst, was a micro-manager who seemed to cultivate micro-managers.

There’s so many times that Didio (or his colleagues) seemed to want to intercede and “fix” what wasn’t broken, or to try and put things into slots they didn’t fit, or seemed dissatisfied with things that were clearly successful, but unplanned. I get feeling like 52 forced you to release another miniseries to tell the story you commissioned it for, but it was a runaway success-story, and Countdown accomplishing its commission but failing otherwise means it failed in the end, not succeeded.

Denny O’Neil, for all his grace, strong reputation, and talent, strikes me as being a hard-driving but successful manager, considering the sheer number of crossovers and status quo changes he oversaw, and the way it looks like he might have seen how much free time Chuck Dixon had on one book at a time and started challenging him to juggle three or four.

Marts and Asselin, if I’m reading the credits for editors in the RIP-Inc era correctly, seemed to be good “manager” type editors, getting talent and letting them cut lose.

A big problem with the New 52 was how many people clearly had to bend whatever way executives’ whims were blowing that day. Miller being told he couldn’t use Steph even in Smallville, Teen Titans getting stuffed with editorial decisions that Lobdell accommodated as his main way of maintaining his spot, and the Batwoman debacle are all unforced errors that didn’t pay off in any dividends.

[millernumber1]

The thing that really undermined the Didio approach was that he viewed so many characters as interchangeable IPs - instead of seeing differentiation and proliferation, he saw arbitrarily designated scarcities and redundancies.

I do respect the guy for some decisions, but there’s a bunch of arbitrary opinions he held that he also seemed try and implement even as he both didn’t actually write them, and wasn’t a great writer for most of those characters even when he did get ahold of them.

The difference between a micro-manager and a hard-driving but successful manager kind of comes down to the old “never let perfect become the enemy of good” idea, especially in artistic businesses. And Didio, at his worst, was a micro-manager who seemed to cultivate micro-managers.

There’s so many times that Didio (or his colleagues) seemed to want to intercede and “fix” what wasn’t broken, or to try and put things into slots they didn’t fit, or seemed dissatisfied with things that were clearly successful, but unplanned. I get feeling like 52 forced you to release another miniseries to tell the story you commissioned it for, but it was a runaway success-story, and Countdown accomplishing its commission but failing otherwise means it failed in the end, not succeeded.

Denny O’Neil, for all his grace, strong reputation, and talent, strikes me as being a hard-driving but successful manager, considering the sheer number of crossovers and status quo changes he oversaw, and the way it looks like he might have seen how much free time Chuck Dixon had on one book at a time and started challenging him to juggle three or four.

Marts and Asselin, if I’m reading the credits for editors in the RIP-Inc era correctly, seemed to be good “manager” type editors, getting talent and letting them cut lose.

A big problem with the New 52 was how many people clearly had to bend whatever way executives’ whims were blowing that day. Miller being told he couldn’t use Steph even in Smallville, Teen Titans getting stuffed with editorial decisions that Lobdell accommodated as his main way of maintaining his spot, and the Batwoman debacle are all unforced errors that didn’t pay off in any dividends.

That's really well said. I think the recent interview that dropped shows both the strengths and the weaknesses of that attitude. His whole "strategy" of "cutting the bottom" and "boosting the midlevel" - yes, it has both intuitive and solid sense to it, but it also has nothing to do with those PROPERTIES being bad, just not the right time, approach, or creators.

And he also was a flat out liar, since he held onto low selling titles for a really long time for various reasons.

He was very, very much a micro manager - all the interviews around his time as EIC say just how editorially driven EVERY decision was. Which simply sounds miserable in terms of being a creator.

O'Neil was definitely no nonsense - deadlines were deadlines, the work was the work. I'm very curious to know what deadline slips were like during his tenure. It's hard to track, since solicits are increasingly hard to find to compare original and final release dates, but I'd wager that it was a lot less forgiving than today's schedule.

Marts definitely seems to have a good reputation, though he apparently fell out with Snyder in the n52, being replaced by Mark Doyle. Listening to O'Neil's interviews on podcasts, I didn't realize the DC knew that no Batman group editor would last as long as O'Neil. Personally, I would make it my goal to find someone with that kind of creative power and personal maturity, and keep them for a decade.

[Coco Loco]

Cass’s series really does seem to have been cancelled as a preemptive move to “clear the deck” for Batwoman, out of paranoia about confusion or “market dilution.”

Somewhat ironically, I kind of think the closing arc created by the book’s pending doom led to an increase in quality under that team (since they weren’t the original team), and they ended the story in a way that was supposed to help set-up up her evil turn in OYL...

I always thought the end of the Cassandra Batgirl series would have made a great Jack Knight-style ending for her character. It was a terrific conclusion that brought her character arc full circle. I could have easily seen her going off to have a somewhat normal life thereafter.

O'Neil was definitely no nonsense - deadlines were deadlines, the work was the work. I'm very curious to know what deadline slips were like during his tenure. It's hard to track, since solicits are increasingly hard to find to compare original and final release dates, but I'd wager that it was a lot less forgiving than today's schedule.

There were fewer delays in general on DC books in that era. O'Neil's tenure had a couple of blips. Shadow of the Bat got way off schedule around the time of Knightfall/ Knightquest. The Robin series actually skipped a month early in its run (Grummett was drawing two books at the time). I think LotDK may have slipped once or twice as well, although Denny was not the editor of LotDK.

[Will Evans]

There are a lot of theories.

The one I think has most credence is: A new Batwoman was coming out, there was a LOT of confusion about that character (Devin Grayson and Greg Rucka were both supposed to write her, but neither knew about the other's potential series), a design was leaked before the character was debuted in the weekly 52 series, so that series had to be rewritten to feature her more prominantly sooner, and because Didio has...um...a THING about Batgirls (aka, he dislikes all the Batgirls who aren't Babs, and then proceeds to treat Babs and her series like trash), he or Bob Schreck (who I think was Bat-group editor at the time) cancelled her series to "prevent confusion".

We know for certain that editorial made it clear to the writers of Robin that Cass had to be a villain for One Year Later. Editorial mandate was behind nearly every single decision made from 2006-2009, at the very least (from interviews I just reread with Dixon), with the possible exception of what Morrison ended up doing.

That makes sense. They killed off Tempest in Blackest Night to make way for a new Aqualad. Even though Garth hadn’t used that name for over 10 years.