Wow! I really admire that kind of collection. I myself can't sustain a passion for a whole line - I try to keep myself to about 1-2 books a week, so my love for the experience is still hot every week. But it's really awesome when I find people who have that kind of sheer enthusiasm!
I would also like more attention to be paid to one-shots and shorter arcs. King's Batman actually did do that quite a bit, but it was also all part of one story, so it was a very different experience.
That's so true. The "lived in" quality of the universe made it feel like even if you weren't interested in reading everything, it was still a world that had depth. I'd say that Morrison is the last time that the Bat Books really consistently paid attention to each other. Maybe the early Snyder stuff, but after a while, it felt like everything was really disconnected until DC wanted to pull a tie-in month.
Very cool! I've never been able to sustain a complete chronological reading - but I think it's a very useful resource to have! Very glad to have you here with this experience in the thread.
I agree - I quite liked Year Three, though not as much as Year Two for some reason. Still a little sad that they were wiped out by Long Halloween and Dark Victory.
"We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
"All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
"There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews, Stephanie Brown Discord
And even with Morrison's run the rest of the books were clearly following his lead, whereas the creative teams felt pretty equal during the 90s. The contemporary tie-ins tend to be kind of problematic IMO, because unlike the massive crossovers of the 90s it feels like the satellite creative teams getting their visions co-opted to fit the pilot book's agenda. Maybe I'm not being fair. The last old-school 90s style crossover we got was "Night of the Monster Men" and I loved it. But it's the exception to the rule post-2000s.
I never bought DC Comics regularly until "Death of Superman." I only had so much allowance and I spent it on mostly Marvel. I do remember picking up the third and fourth issue of "Year Three" and being fascinated by it all. Like that opening scene where Alfred contemplates killing Zucco!I agree - I quite liked Year Three, though not as much as Year Two for some reason. Still a little sad that they were wiped out by Long Halloween and Dark Victory.
Denny O'Neil's Legend of the Dark Knight #100 re-telling also has Zucco dying of a heart attack and that was before Dark Victory. Not canon, but it seems like the idea of Zucco dying immediately stuck with most writers familiar with the original story. But I like the idea of Bruce and Dick working to solve Zucco's murder as his final transition out of Batman's shadow. (I know he can never fully escape the shadow of the bat, nor should he, but it's when he finally feels comfortable as Nightwing).
Last edited by David Walton; 01-30-2020 at 08:22 AM.
That's true - Morrison feels, to me, like the transition to "superstar writer" as a model, which doesn't work when you hire more than one of them (which DC has been doing a lot). I tend to agree that I don't like the way a lot of tie-ins feel shoehorned in or disruptive of the ongoing story - but I think Deathstroke by Priest shows that it can be done masterfully in a way that doesn't conflict with the ongoing story. But that's an extreme minority, not the norm, sadly. You have to have a strange combination of humility and ego to write that way - a belief in your own story so that you don't let your story get destroyed, but humility so that you are willing to make changes to fit the universe.
(I was sadly not a fan of Night of the Monster Men, but it was far from the worst example of a crossover of that nature. I thought Robin War was much worse, despite me liking the individual series involved.)
I really liked the use of the Zucco plotline in The Black Mirror (and I was bummed that it was so mishandled in the n52 Nightwing run that followed up on those threads). Partly because I like the idea of each Batfamily member having their own nemesis or thematic throughline. I should check out Legends of the Dark Knight #100.
"We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
"All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
"There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews, Stephanie Brown Discord
There are advantages and disadvantages to either approach. I've enjoyed strong creative visions like Morrison's, Snyder's and King's. But I think they're probably detrimental to the overall sense of a 'line.' I often miss the very real sense of immediate impact titles had on each other. And I wonder if the era of the 'superstar writer' has accelerated the decline in sales for satellite books. In the 90s, DC-family books tended to encourage interest in their broader world, even when we're not talking direct crossovers.
You should. There's also a Jason Todd backup story with art by Lee Weeks.I really liked the use of the Zucco plotline in The Black Mirror (and I was bummed that it was so mishandled in the n52 Nightwing run that followed up on those threads). Partly because I like the idea of each Batfamily member having their own nemesis or thematic throughline. I should check out Legends of the Dark Knight #100.
I don't think it fits in this order I'm reading, isn't Zucco alive in this issue? If he is, it goes against Dark Victory story. Yes, they mention "Zucco fiasco" in A lonely place of dying, but that's it, I thought it was a codiname they were using for some operation to fit it with Dark Victory, if they had mentioned Zucco was alive, it would screw my reading order logically, thankfully they didn't.
Thank you, still not so much experience, but I'm glad to help you guys out with some information.
Last edited by Wrestler; 01-30-2020 at 09:13 AM.
I think a creative vision is good...but I prefer it when that vision is editorial's, so the writers are working together - that ego/humility balance again. However, I would NOT like the current editorial to have the kind of creative vision O'Neil had.
90s sales and market were just a really different model. Pressures, desires, availability all different, so it's hard to figure out what to do now in the current market. But I think "more of the same" is likely not the answer - but then you get things like the n52, which are also not really the answer long term, however good they were short term.
As for a Lee Weeks Batfamily book...you know how to hook me in
"We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
"All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
"There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews, Stephanie Brown Discord
I get what you're saying, but I think any kind of work for DC or Marvel requires an ego/humility balance. Snyder and King strike me as incredibly humble guys. I don't have any problem with writers wanting to mostly do their own thing if possible. Or preferring to outline things in a group environment.
Eh? What fault do you find with O'Neil's vision? I thought he did excellent work as editor.However, I would NOT like the current editorial to have the kind of creative vision O'Neil had.
I guess we'll see what impact 5G has on the market.90s sales and market were just a really different model. Pressures, desires, availability all different, so it's hard to figure out what to do now in the current market. But I think "more of the same" is likely not the answer - but then you get things like the n52, which are also not really the answer long term, however good they were short term.
His Batman work is so brilliant!As for a Lee Weeks Batfamily book...you know how to hook me in
I was reading Tony Zucco's profile on this website -> https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Anthony_Zucco_(New_Earth) , I remember in Dark Victory story Batman saying Zucco was dead after the heart attack, but now I read this, can you experienced readers confirm this is true?
"He is later found by Batman and Dick Grayson (Pre-Robin), and is chased down a dark alley by Grayson until he has a heart attack, and confesses to his various crimes.
Zucco did not die of the heart attack, but he actually went into a coma and was later sent to prison after recovering. He is sentenced to two consecutive life terms for the deaths of John and Mary Grayson, and incarcerated in Blackgate Penitentiary."
I don't know. Zucco's alive in "Year Three" and serving his prison term. I don't know if him surviving "Dark Victory" is official canon or just a way for the author of that profile to reconcile the discrepancy. Either way, I think "Year Three" is worth taking a look at, given that Wolfman picks up a lot of themes he introduce there in "A Lonely Place of Dying."
Snyder and King are personally very humble, but artistically not, sadly. They refuse/feel incapable of telling others what to do, and don't work well with others interfering with their own stories either. But they're also almost completely outside of this thread's purview, so I don't mean to derail, as I love this thread.
I phrased that poorly - I meant O'Neil's vision was great. I think Didio, Harras, and the other editors currently do not have a great vision, so I do not want them to have the power O'Neil did.
We will indeed have to see what 5G does. As like the world's only Batwing fan, I'm kind of worried this will tank him forever. He deserves better than to be a stunt Batman.
Lee Weeks (and Jorge Fornes) are clearly the inheritors of David Mazzucchelli, and since Mazz decided to go into fine art with just a few independent and brilliant comic works like Asterios Polyp, I'm very glad we have Weeks and Fornes providing such beauty for Batman and Daredevil.
That really depends on the continuity. In the n52, he revealed to have faked his death and started a new life, but I have no real idea if he did that pre-n52. I know his daughter, Sonia, was part of The Black Mirror, and thus falls under the purview of this thread.
"We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
"All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
"There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews, Stephanie Brown Discord
They say it's mentioned he was actually in coma in Robin: Year One, but I don't remember that, I'll have to give it a look again, if he was indeed alive, his pulse should be extremely weak to Batman commit this kind of mistake.
I'll definitely read Year Three, I'm reading some separate good stories people talk about sometimes.
Re: lived-in universe
Now that I think about it, what are other attempts at "average Gotham citizens" outside of Tim Drake's spidey-like 90s supporting cast? Bonus points if said characters aren't cops, doctors, or media personalities.
The closest I can think of would be Dick's neighbors in the Haven, the families of Lucius Fox or Renee Montoya, or in the New 52 with Harper Row's brother, Cullen... and the Batgirl of Burnside had some good additions to this, but have any of them stuck? I don't know.
It was a special thing to have Tim's friends circulating in the Gotham-verse, for Tim to essentially be the Peter Parker of Gotham, and it's a shame that they've mostly been lost, along with that role... or maybe it's good that they were forgotten before Ives could be turned into some Green Goblin ripoff.
Morrison had a prostitute who Bruce hired to be a secretary, I believe. There were Oracle's hacker buddies in Oracle: The Cure (such a disappointing mini). The Birds of Prey, especially Dixon's stuff and some of the early Simone stuff, had some good supporting characters - neighbors of Dinah or Babs.
Too much of Batman has become too epic, not leaving room for the everyday characters, I think.
"We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
"All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
"There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews, Stephanie Brown Discord
Cassandra Cain had a neighbor she befriended for a few issues.
Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?
I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP