Post-Crisis, Pre-52 Appreciation 2020

[David Walton]

Yes, it's the first time! Last year I wanted to start reading HQs, I've always liked super-heroes, I was all into MCU and some Marvel series like The Punisher and Daredevil, one DC series too, Smallville, as I finished watching all the seasons with my wife. I grew up hearing my cousin talking about Batman and he is a really addicted one at the bat-family universe, I've decided to give it a try. I didn't want to start reading issues from 1940, 1950 and so on, as I thought it was outdated, but I knew the 80's and 90's had excellent batman stories, so I went searching for a batman reading order of the modern era. I've found it on several places, but two of them really struck me as the correct ones while I was reading the first issues. As I'm going through the stories, I've been getting rid of some of them, including some and I'm coming up with my own reading order, the one I find it more logical chronologically speaking.

It's been a great experience so far, a bit (very) addictive I'd say.

Have you read "Year Three"? In a lot of ways, "A Lonely Place of Dying" is its sequel.

[millernumber1]

In the 90s, after Knightfall started, I never missed an issue of Batman, Detective Comics, Shadow of the Bat, Catwoman, Robin, Azrael, Batman Chronicles, or Nightwing. Got specials, annuals, minis, trades, back issues. I really enjoyed reading all that stuff as it came out brand new. The 90s bat books get a rep for being one crossover after another, and I enjoyed all those. But there was one stretch for 18 months between Legacy and Cataclysm that was really cool, when there were no crossovers, they had a three issue max on story arcs, and every month at least one series had a one shot issue. I wish they would go back to that style today more often.

Due to my budget at the time, I didn’t get Elseworlds stuff, the Adventures books, or non crossover issues of Legends of the Dark Knight. Also, Birds of Prey was somehow off my radar until 2000. I did go back and get most of that stuff later as back issues. In the 2000s I branched into more of the wider DCU in addition to the bat books.

Wow! I really admire that kind of collection. I myself can't sustain a passion for a whole line - I try to keep myself to about 1-2 books a week, so my love for the experience is still hot every week. But it's really awesome when I find people who have that kind of sheer enthusiasm!

I would also like more attention to be paid to one-shots and shorter arcs. King's Batman actually did do that quite a bit, but it was also all part of one story, so it was a very different experience.

The 1990s DC Universe felt very lived-in, especially in the Super and Bat-family books, since they had so many titles to explore different facets of their world.

They also had a different feel because there wasn't a single creative vision that all others deferred to. Whatever the advantages to the modern approach, there is a much larger disconnect between books now. King's BATMAN and Tynion's TEC could easily have taken place on different worlds.

That's so true. The "lived in" quality of the universe made it feel like even if you weren't interested in reading everything, it was still a world that had depth. I'd say that Morrison is the last time that the Bat Books really consistently paid attention to each other. Maybe the early Snyder stuff, but after a while, it felt like everything was really disconnected until DC wanted to pull a tie-in month.

Yes, it's the first time! Last year I wanted to start reading HQs, I've always liked super-heroes, I was all into MCU and some Marvel series like The Punisher and Daredevil, one DC series too, Smallville, as I finished watching all the seasons with my wife. I grew up hearing my cousin talking about Batman and he is a really addicted one at the bat-family universe, I've decided to give it a try. I didn't want to start reading issues from 1940, 1950 and so on, as I thought it was outdated, but I knew the 80's and 90's had excellent batman stories, so I went searching for a batman reading order of the modern era. I've found it on several places, but two of them really struck me as the correct ones while I was reading the first issues. As I'm going through the stories, I've been getting rid of some of them, including some and I'm coming up with my own reading order, the one I find it more logical chronologically speaking.

It's been a great experience so far, a bit (very) addictive I'd say.

Very cool! I've never been able to sustain a complete chronological reading - but I think it's a very useful resource to have! Very glad to have you here with this experience in the thread.

Have you read "Year Three"? In a lot of ways, "A Lonely Place of Dying" is its sequel.

I agree - I quite liked Year Three, though not as much as Year Two for some reason. Still a little sad that they were wiped out by Long Halloween and Dark Victory.

[David Walton]

That's so true. The "lived in" quality of the universe made it feel like even if you weren't interested in reading everything, it was still a world that had depth. I'd say that Morrison is the last time that the Bat Books really consistently paid attention to each other. Maybe the early Snyder stuff, but after a while, it felt like everything was really disconnected until DC wanted to pull a tie-in month.

And even with Morrison's run the rest of the books were clearly following his lead, whereas the creative teams felt pretty equal during the 90s. The contemporary tie-ins tend to be kind of problematic IMO, because unlike the massive crossovers of the 90s it feels like the satellite creative teams getting their visions co-opted to fit the pilot book's agenda. Maybe I'm not being fair. The last old-school 90s style crossover we got was "Night of the Monster Men" and I loved it. But it's the exception to the rule post-2000s.

I agree - I quite liked Year Three, though not as much as Year Two for some reason. Still a little sad that they were wiped out by Long Halloween and Dark Victory.

I never bought DC Comics regularly until "Death of Superman." I only had so much allowance and I spent it on mostly Marvel. I do remember picking up the third and fourth issue of "Year Three" and being fascinated by it all. Like that opening scene where Alfred contemplates killing Zucco!

Denny O'Neil's Legend of the Dark Knight #100 re-telling also has Zucco dying of a heart attack and that was before Dark Victory. Not canon, but it seems like the idea of Zucco dying immediately stuck with most writers familiar with the original story. But I like the idea of Bruce and Dick working to solve Zucco's murder as his final transition out of Batman's shadow. (I know he can never fully escape the shadow of the bat, nor should he, but it's when he finally feels comfortable as Nightwing).

[millernumber1]

And even with Morrison's run the rest of the books were clearly following his lead, whereas the creative teams felt pretty equal during the 90s. The contemporary tie-ins tend to be kind of problematic IMO, because unlike the massive crossovers of the 90s it feels like the satellite creative teams getting their visions co-opted to fit the pilot book's agenda. Maybe I'm not being fair. The last old-school 90s style crossover we got was "Night of the Monster Men" and I loved it. But it's the exception to the rule post-2000s.

I never bought DC Comics regularly until "Death of Superman." I only had so much allowance and I spent it on mostly Marvel. I do remember picking up the third and fourth issue of "Year Three" and being fascinated by it all. Like that opening scene where Alfred contemplates killing Zucco!

Denny O'Neil's Legend of the Dark Knight #100 re-telling also has Zucco dying of a heart attack and that was before Dark Victory. Not canon, but it seems like the idea of Zucco dying immediately stuck with most writers familiar with the original story. But I like the idea of Bruce and Dick working to solve Zucco's murder as his final transition out of Batman's shadow. (I know he can never fully escape the shadow of the bat, nor should he, but it's when he finally feels comfortable as Nightwing).

That's true - Morrison feels, to me, like the transition to "superstar writer" as a model, which doesn't work when you hire more than one of them (which DC has been doing a lot). I tend to agree that I don't like the way a lot of tie-ins feel shoehorned in or disruptive of the ongoing story - but I think Deathstroke by Priest shows that it can be done masterfully in a way that doesn't conflict with the ongoing story. But that's an extreme minority, not the norm, sadly. You have to have a strange combination of humility and ego to write that way - a belief in your own story so that you don't let your story get destroyed, but humility so that you are willing to make changes to fit the universe.

(I was sadly not a fan of Night of the Monster Men, but it was far from the worst example of a crossover of that nature. I thought Robin War was much worse, despite me liking the individual series involved.)

I really liked the use of the Zucco plotline in The Black Mirror (and I was bummed that it was so mishandled in the n52 Nightwing run that followed up on those threads). Partly because I like the idea of each Batfamily member having their own nemesis or thematic throughline. I should check out Legends of the Dark Knight #100.

[David Walton]

That's true - Morrison feels, to me, like the transition to "superstar writer" as a model, which doesn't work when you hire more than one of them (which DC has been doing a lot).

There are advantages and disadvantages to either approach. I've enjoyed strong creative visions like Morrison's, Snyder's and King's. But I think they're probably detrimental to the overall sense of a 'line.' I often miss the very real sense of immediate impact titles had on each other. And I wonder if the era of the 'superstar writer' has accelerated the decline in sales for satellite books. In the 90s, DC-family books tended to encourage interest in their broader world, even when we're not talking direct crossovers.

I really liked the use of the Zucco plotline in The Black Mirror (and I was bummed that it was so mishandled in the n52 Nightwing run that followed up on those threads). Partly because I like the idea of each Batfamily member having their own nemesis or thematic throughline. I should check out Legends of the Dark Knight #100.

You should. There's also a Jason Todd backup story with art by Lee Weeks.

[Wrestler]

Have you read "Year Three"? In a lot of ways, "A Lonely Place of Dying" is its sequel.

I don't think it fits in this order I'm reading, isn't Zucco alive in this issue? If he is, it goes against Dark Victory story. Yes, they mention "Zucco fiasco" in A lonely place of dying, but that's it, I thought it was a codiname they were using for some operation to fit it with Dark Victory, if they had mentioned Zucco was alive, it would screw my reading order logically, thankfully they didn't.

Very cool! I've never been able to sustain a complete chronological reading - but I think it's a very useful resource to have! Very glad to have you here with this experience in the thread.

Thank you, still not so much experience, but I'm glad to help you guys out with some information.

[millernumber1]

There are advantages and disadvantages to either approach. I've enjoyed strong creative visions like Morrison's, Snyder's and King's. But I think they're probably detrimental to the overall sense of a 'line.' I often miss the very real sense of immediate impact titles had on each other. And I wonder if the era of the 'superstar writer' has accelerated the decline in sales for satellite books. In the 90s, DC-family books tended to encourage interest in their broader world, even when we're not talking direct crossovers.

You should. There's also a Jason Todd backup story with art by Lee Weeks.

I think a creative vision is good...but I prefer it when that vision is editorial's, so the writers are working together - that ego/humility balance again. However, I would NOT like the current editorial to have the kind of creative vision O'Neil had.

90s sales and market were just a really different model. Pressures, desires, availability all different, so it's hard to figure out what to do now in the current market. But I think "more of the same" is likely not the answer - but then you get things like the n52, which are also not really the answer long term, however good they were short term.

As for a Lee Weeks Batfamily book...you know how to hook me in

[David Walton]

I think a creative vision is good...but I prefer it when that vision is editorial's, so the writers are working together - that ego/humility balance again.

I get what you're saying, but I think any kind of work for DC or Marvel requires an ego/humility balance. Snyder and King strike me as incredibly humble guys. I don't have any problem with writers wanting to mostly do their own thing if possible. Or preferring to outline things in a group environment.

However, I would NOT like the current editorial to have the kind of creative vision O'Neil had.

Eh? What fault do you find with O'Neil's vision? I thought he did excellent work as editor.

90s sales and market were just a really different model. Pressures, desires, availability all different, so it's hard to figure out what to do now in the current market. But I think "more of the same" is likely not the answer - but then you get things like the n52, which are also not really the answer long term, however good they were short term.

I guess we'll see what impact 5G has on the market.

As for a Lee Weeks Batfamily book...you know how to hook me in

His Batman work is so brilliant!

[Wrestler]

I was reading Tony Zucco's profile on this website -> https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Anthony_Zucco_(New_Earth) , I remember in Dark Victory story Batman saying Zucco was dead after the heart attack, but now I read this, can you experienced readers confirm this is true?

"He is later found by Batman and Dick Grayson (Pre-Robin), and is chased down a dark alley by Grayson until he has a heart attack, and confesses to his various crimes.


Zucco did not die of the heart attack, but he actually went into a coma and was later sent to prison after recovering. He is sentenced to two consecutive life terms for the deaths of John and Mary Grayson, and incarcerated in Blackgate Penitentiary."

[David Walton]

I was reading Tony Zucco's profile on this website -> https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Anthony_Zucco_(New_Earth) , I remember in Dark Victory story Batman saying Zucco was dead after the heart attack, but now I read this, can you experienced readers confirm this is true?

"He is later found by Batman and Dick Grayson (Pre-Robin), and is chased down a dark alley by Grayson until he has a heart attack, and confesses to his various crimes.


Zucco did not die of the heart attack, but he actually went into a coma and was later sent to prison after recovering. He is sentenced to two consecutive life terms for the deaths of John and Mary Grayson, and incarcerated in Blackgate Penitentiary."

I don't know. Zucco's alive in "Year Three" and serving his prison term. I don't know if him surviving "Dark Victory" is official canon or just a way for the author of that profile to reconcile the discrepancy. Either way, I think "Year Three" is worth taking a look at, given that Wolfman picks up a lot of themes he introduce there in "A Lonely Place of Dying."

[millernumber1]

I get what you're saying, but I think any kind of work for DC or Marvel requires an ego/humility balance. Snyder and King strike me as incredibly humble guys. I don't have any problem with writers wanting to mostly do their own thing if possible. Or preferring to outline things in a group environment.

Eh? What fault do you find with O'Neil's vision? I thought he did excellent work as editor.

I guess we'll see what impact 5G has on the market.

His Batman work is so brilliant!

Snyder and King are personally very humble, but artistically not, sadly. They refuse/feel incapable of telling others what to do, and don't work well with others interfering with their own stories either. But they're also almost completely outside of this thread's purview, so I don't mean to derail, as I love this thread.

I phrased that poorly - I meant O'Neil's vision was great. I think Didio, Harras, and the other editors currently do not have a great vision, so I do not want them to have the power O'Neil did.

We will indeed have to see what 5G does. As like the world's only Batwing fan, I'm kind of worried this will tank him forever. He deserves better than to be a stunt Batman.

Lee Weeks (and Jorge Fornes) are clearly the inheritors of David Mazzucchelli, and since Mazz decided to go into fine art with just a few independent and brilliant comic works like Asterios Polyp, I'm very glad we have Weeks and Fornes providing such beauty for Batman and Daredevil.

I was reading Tony Zucco's profile on this website -> https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Anthony_Zucco_(New_Earth) , I remember in Dark Victory story Batman saying Zucco was dead after the heart attack, but now I read this, can you experienced readers confirm this is true?

That really depends on the continuity. In the n52, he revealed to have faked his death and started a new life, but I have no real idea if he did that pre-n52. I know his daughter, Sonia, was part of The Black Mirror, and thus falls under the purview of this thread.

[Wrestler]

I don't know. Zucco's alive in "Year Three" and serving his prison term. I don't know if him surviving "Dark Victory" is official canon or just a way for the author of that profile to reconcile the discrepancy. Either way, I think "Year Three" is worth taking a look at, given that Wolfman picks up a lot of themes he introduce there in "A Lonely Place of Dying."

They say it's mentioned he was actually in coma in Robin: Year One, but I don't remember that, I'll have to give it a look again, if he was indeed alive, his pulse should be extremely weak to Batman commit this kind of mistake.

I'll definitely read Year Three, I'm reading some separate good stories people talk about sometimes.

[gregpersons]

Re: lived-in universe

Now that I think about it, what are other attempts at "average Gotham citizens" outside of Tim Drake's spidey-like 90s supporting cast? Bonus points if said characters aren't cops, doctors, or media personalities.

The closest I can think of would be Dick's neighbors in the Haven, the families of Lucius Fox or Renee Montoya, or in the New 52 with Harper Row's brother, Cullen... and the Batgirl of Burnside had some good additions to this, but have any of them stuck? I don't know.

It was a special thing to have Tim's friends circulating in the Gotham-verse, for Tim to essentially be the Peter Parker of Gotham, and it's a shame that they've mostly been lost, along with that role... or maybe it's good that they were forgotten before Ives could be turned into some Green Goblin ripoff.

[millernumber1]

Re: lived-in universe

Now that I think about it, what are other attempts at "average Gotham citizens" outside of Tim Drake's spidey-like 90s supporting cast? Bonus points if said characters aren't cops, doctors, or media personalities.

The closest I can think of would be Dick's neighbors in the Haven, the families of Lucius Fox or Renee Montoya, or in the New 52 with Harper Row's brother, Cullen... and the Batgirl of Burnside had some good additions to this, but have any of them stuck? I don't know.

It was a special thing to have Tim's friends circulating in the Gotham-verse, for Tim to essentially be the Peter Parker of Gotham, and it's a shame that they've mostly been lost, along with that role... or maybe it's good that they were forgotten before Ives could be turned into some Green Goblin ripoff.

Morrison had a prostitute who Bruce hired to be a secretary, I believe. There were Oracle's hacker buddies in Oracle: The Cure (such a disappointing mini). The Birds of Prey, especially Dixon's stuff and some of the early Simone stuff, had some good supporting characters - neighbors of Dinah or Babs.

Too much of Batman has become too epic, not leaving room for the everyday characters, I think.

[godisawesome]

Cassandra Cain had a neighbor she befriended for a few issues.