"We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
"All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
"There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews, Stephanie Brown Discord
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I went through all the pages in Robin Year One, and that's the only one which mentions Zucco, that he is actually DEAD. That's why you can't believe those editable fandom pages.
The most odd thing is that they go along with Zucco's fate in Dark Victory, but when Harvey is putting that judge on trial, he tells his story of how he ended up with half of his face destroyed by Maroni, but that's different from The Long Halloween, in this last one, the coin is given by his father, it's not the lucky silver dollar from Maroni as he says on Robin Year One, and Maroni wasn't facing trial on TLH, he was a witness. This is one of these things you have to ignore to go on with your reading order.
Dang. The O'Neil Dick and Bruce story wasn't my fave - the art was a bit too static, though lovely in rendering (I have the same feeling about a lot of hyper-rendered comic art), and O'Neil's writing for the Bruce and Dick relationship doesn't really wow me (the insistence on him not being a father to Dick was a really jarring reminder just how radically Batman an the Robins have shifted over the last 20 years).
But darn. That backup. Not only was Weeks a master back then (which I knew, from his Daredevil work), but goodness. I might finally see why people like Robinson (My exposure to him has all been Cry for Justice or later, and none of it has impressed me at all). I almost feel like the Under the Red Hood film read this comic and cribbed from its emotional beats.
"We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
"All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
"There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews, Stephanie Brown Discord
I'm pretty much agreed. The art is static and that's a very poor fit for Dick Grayson, one of the most dynamic characters in all of comicdom!
The story itself doesn't add anything to Robin's origin that I can tell. Bruce's line is troubling, though in context, Alfred is off to the side going, "Sure, Master Bruce. Sure." So it's very much of a time when Bruce was written as being incapable of perceiving his true emotional state and Alfred and others have to play that role. I'm not personally a fan of Bruce being that stunted in his emotional development. And the contrast sticks out even more because of the back-up!
Robinson is great. I hadn't made the UtRH adaptation connection but you're spot on.But darn. That backup. Not only was Weeks a master back then (which I knew, from his Daredevil work), but goodness. I might finally see why people like Robinson (My exposure to him has all been Cry for Justice or later, and none of it has impressed me at all). I almost feel like the Under the Red Hood film read this comic and cribbed from its emotional beats.
"We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
"All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
"There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews, Stephanie Brown Discord
One thing I dislike in that telling is having Bruce comes up with the name "Robin." There was this unfortunate tendency in this era to rob Dick Grayson of agency to the point where all he's ever doing is reacting to Bruce and it's unclear what drives him at all beyond that. I feel like being Robin should be a very active choice from Dick, rather than it being presented as he's drafted into this and kinda just goes along with it.Originally Posted by David Walton
I don't love that shift — which definitely occurred during O'Neil's editorial reign, especially in Knightfall/Prodigal and beyond — and I think it mostly hurts the characters. I feel like the New 52 was onto something with framing "Robin" like a prestigious internship, more than as a bunch of adopted children. It's a mentorship.Originally Posted by millernumber1
Actually I think the Marvel Cinematic Universe version of Spider-Man/Iron Man might be the ideal version of the Robin/Batman dynamic, for me... I don't think those movies capture "my" Spidey, who I prefer as more of the Lee-era rebel/loner than someone who would want to be anyone's protege... they're better Robin movies than Spidey movies, imo.
Batman/Iron Man is paternalistic, and is a fatherly figure, but doesn't need to be housing, clothing, and feeding. Still "Family" but they're not literally dad/son, adoptive or otherwise. Because if Batman is more literally Robin's dad, then basically he needs to be able to say "I love you" to his children. But of course he can't because he needs to look cool, so instead it becomes like this weird Fonzie story point where because Batman is so cool he's slightly broken.
That's why I like the 90s Tim Drake Robin so much, because he does have that extra bit of independence with Jack being his Aunt May. Batman doesn't "own" him. It makes it a bit more of Robin choosing to go into this on his own, rather than inheriting the family business.
Yeah, the whole thing felt too by the numbers. It throws the Year Ones into much stronger light - they take the time to develop to big moments and ideas.
Hmm. I actually prefer the Robin=Son thing, and the Batgirl=semi-daughter thing to just "friends." Because, to me, Batman is defined by his loss of family, and finding and making a new family is a really powerful development of his story.
"We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
"All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
"There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews, Stephanie Brown Discord
I like to think of the family relationships as varied: Bruce and Dick are very much a mix of a brotherhood and master/apprentice being closer on age than the others (with Alfred as more the paternal figure there), Bruce and Jason were actually a surrogate father and son relationship, Bruce and Tim was initially strictly master/apprentice... but shifted to the paternal relationship kicking in when DC decided to kill everyone around Tim, and Cassandra as someone who very much views Bruce as a father figure but in her own almost worshipful way, with Babs becoming more the maternal and master there in terms of Cas’s growth.
I love the idea of Batman building a family, but I really do think it should vary more clearly in relationship to relationship.
Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?
I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP
"We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
"All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
"There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews, Stephanie Brown Discord
That’s actually one of the hallmarks of this era, and was one of the things that lead to my view of them.
I think it’s been lost a bit in the post-Flashpoint era, in part because of the reboot and Didio’s hatred of “redundancy” simply eliminating many of the “required reading lists” you could otherwise depend on as the basis for future writers, and in part because of the different ways the books and characters are handled now.
Speaking of Didio... I often think that the issues caused by his very weird and intrusive creative ideas could best be seen by the impact and dichotomy he wound up having on the Batfamily towards the end of this period. It’s like, on the one hand, he and the Bat editorial post-Denny O’Neil were really, really good at getting the kind of high class talent you’d want on the books... but almost anytime he made an executive decision, gave a direct storytelling order, or allowed someone outside the Batbooks to do something Over The Top, you could always see it temporarily damaging the Batbooks before they’d usually right themselves.
Please correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t he behind the decisions to make Steph a Robin, then kill her, then make Cass go crazy and evil (and to have Adam Beecher not do the necessary research for it), try to exile and kill much of Chuck Dixon’s creations like Blüdhaven?
Because looking back, it feels like the Bat-writers made a whole lot of lemonade out of a frankly huge amount of lemons Didio directly and indirectly shoveled their way. Bryan Q. Miller followed the returning Dixon in exploiting Steoh’s eventual return, Morrison, Snyder, and Higgins manages to exploit Geoff Johns’s fix for Cassandra Cain, and Fabian Nicieza managed to both acknowledge most of the emotional trauma Tim had gone through *and* still pull him forward organically out of it.
Meanwhile, Didio basically interrupted and delayed Batman Inc. at the height of its popularity, tried to get it rewritten through o accommodate the new landscape, and eventually just had to let Morrison deliver a somewhat truncated version eventually.
I feel like the Bat books speak for Didio’s ability to find talent, and his status as a liability towards storytelling when he gets involved there.
Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?
I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP
So...the question of "who killed Steph" has no real answer, and I've been looking for 15 years. Didio and Willingham, the biggest targets, have both denied it, saying that the decision was made before they got their respective assignments (Didio in a back of the comic interview, I believe, and Willingham in a podcast around 2014). The other writers who have denied responsibility are: Devin Grayson, Ed Brubaker, Dylan Horrocks, and Gail Simone. That leaves pretty much just Andersen Gabrych (one of the co-writers of War Crimes as well, and one of the only people who has on-the-record interviews about War Crimes, in which he is very enthusiastic, which points my suspicions directly at him) and Bob Harras, the Batman Group Editor at the time, who just doesn't give interviews at all. So I personally believe it's Gabrych and Harras, not Didio or Willingham, who made the decision.
But I wouldn't be surprised if Didio actually did make the decision, and forgot or obfuscated later.
I tend to credit Chris Yost more for pulling Tim out of his darkness - yes, he wrote the early part of Red Robin, where it started very dark, but Collision was a beautiful climb into the light. Nicieza stayed in the light for an arc or so, but by the end, it was slipping down into darkness again, which has really affected my view of the second half of Red Robin.
I do think it's interesting that all of the writers who work with Dan consistently say nice things about him. At least the ones who go on the record. I don't actually know if there's NDAs preventing the cranky ones from saying anything mean. Devin Grayson's interview last year seemed to indicate that there was really something rotten in the Bat-offices after O'Neil left, and she said that the same people are still there...which could mean it was Didio or Harras or one of the other long-runners.
"We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
"All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
"There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews, Stephanie Brown Discord
"We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
"All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
"There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews, Stephanie Brown Discord