Post-Crisis, Pre-52 Appreciation 2020

[millernumber1]

Cassandra Cain had a neighbor she befriended for a few issues.

Brenda, who was probably nuked with Bludhaven.

[Wrestler]

They say it's mentioned he was actually in coma in Robin: Year One, but I don't remember that, I'll have to give it a look again, if he was indeed alive, his pulse should be extremely weak to Batman commit this kind of mistake.

I'll definitely read Year Three, I'm reading some separate good stories people talk about sometimes.

Screenshot_2020-01-30-20-59-47-842_com.viewer.comicscreen.jpg

I went through all the pages in Robin Year One, and that's the only one which mentions Zucco, that he is actually DEAD. That's why you can't believe those editable fandom pages.

The most odd thing is that they go along with Zucco's fate in Dark Victory, but when Harvey is putting that judge on trial, he tells his story of how he ended up with half of his face destroyed by Maroni, but that's different from The Long Halloween, in this last one, the coin is given by his father, it's not the lucky silver dollar from Maroni as he says on Robin Year One, and Maroni wasn't facing trial on TLH, he was a witness. This is one of these things you have to ignore to go on with your reading order.

[millernumber1]

Denny O'Neil's Legend of the Dark Knight #100 re-telling also has Zucco dying of a heart attack and that was before Dark Victory. Not canon, but it seems like the idea of Zucco dying immediately stuck with most writers familiar with the original story. But I like the idea of Bruce and Dick working to solve Zucco's murder as his final transition out of Batman's shadow. (I know he can never fully escape the shadow of the bat, nor should he, but it's when he finally feels comfortable as Nightwing).

Dang. The O'Neil Dick and Bruce story wasn't my fave - the art was a bit too static, though lovely in rendering (I have the same feeling about a lot of hyper-rendered comic art), and O'Neil's writing for the Bruce and Dick relationship doesn't really wow me (the insistence on him not being a father to Dick was a really jarring reminder just how radically Batman an the Robins have shifted over the last 20 years).

But darn. That backup. Not only was Weeks a master back then (which I knew, from his Daredevil work), but goodness. I might finally see why people like Robinson (My exposure to him has all been Cry for Justice or later, and none of it has impressed me at all). I almost feel like the Under the Red Hood film read this comic and cribbed from its emotional beats.

[David Walton]

Dang. The O'Neil Dick and Bruce story wasn't my fave - the art was a bit too static, though lovely in rendering (I have the same feeling about a lot of hyper-rendered comic art), and O'Neil's writing for the Bruce and Dick relationship doesn't really wow me (the insistence on him not being a father to Dick was a really jarring reminder just how radically Batman an the Robins have shifted over the last 20 years).

I'm pretty much agreed. The art is static and that's a very poor fit for Dick Grayson, one of the most dynamic characters in all of comicdom!

The story itself doesn't add anything to Robin's origin that I can tell. Bruce's line is troubling, though in context, Alfred is off to the side going, "Sure, Master Bruce. Sure." So it's very much of a time when Bruce was written as being incapable of perceiving his true emotional state and Alfred and others have to play that role. I'm not personally a fan of Bruce being that stunted in his emotional development. And the contrast sticks out even more because of the back-up!

But darn. That backup. Not only was Weeks a master back then (which I knew, from his Daredevil work), but goodness. I might finally see why people like Robinson (My exposure to him has all been Cry for Justice or later, and none of it has impressed me at all). I almost feel like the Under the Red Hood film read this comic and cribbed from its emotional beats.

Robinson is great. I hadn't made the UtRH adaptation connection but you're spot on.

[millernumber1]

I'm pretty much agreed. The art is static and that's a very poor fit for Dick Grayson, one of the most dynamic characters in all of comicdom!

The story itself doesn't add anything to Robin's origin that I can tell. Bruce's line is troubling, though in context, Alfred is off to the side going, "Sure, Master Bruce. Sure." So it's very much of a time when Bruce was written as being incapable of perceiving his true emotional state and Alfred and others have to play that role. I'm not personally a fan of Bruce being that stunted in his emotional development. And the contrast sticks out even more because of the back-up!

I mean, clearly I think the contrast is deliberate - Dick opened Bruce up for that level of direct love for Jason to be possible.

I do wonder why we've made such a huge shift from "friends" to "sons" for the Robins.

[gregpersons]

The story itself doesn't add anything to Robin's origin that I can tell. Bruce's line is troubling, though in context, Alfred is off to the side going, "Sure, Master Bruce. Sure." So it's very much of a time when Bruce was written as being incapable of perceiving his true emotional state and Alfred and others have to play that role. I'm not personally a fan of Bruce being that stunted in his emotional development. And the contrast sticks out even more because of the back-up!

One thing I dislike in that telling is having Bruce comes up with the name "Robin." There was this unfortunate tendency in this era to rob Dick Grayson of agency to the point where all he's ever doing is reacting to Bruce and it's unclear what drives him at all beyond that. I feel like being Robin should be a very active choice from Dick, rather than it being presented as he's drafted into this and kinda just goes along with it.

I do wonder why we've made such a huge shift from "friends" to "sons" for the Robins.

I don't love that shift — which definitely occurred during O'Neil's editorial reign, especially in Knightfall/Prodigal and beyond — and I think it mostly hurts the characters. I feel like the New 52 was onto something with framing "Robin" like a prestigious internship, more than as a bunch of adopted children. It's a mentorship.

Actually I think the Marvel Cinematic Universe version of Spider-Man/Iron Man might be the ideal version of the Robin/Batman dynamic, for me... I don't think those movies capture "my" Spidey, who I prefer as more of the Lee-era rebel/loner than someone who would want to be anyone's protege... they're better Robin movies than Spidey movies, imo.

Batman/Iron Man is paternalistic, and is a fatherly figure, but doesn't need to be housing, clothing, and feeding. Still "Family" but they're not literally dad/son, adoptive or otherwise. Because if Batman is more literally Robin's dad, then basically he needs to be able to say "I love you" to his children. But of course he can't because he needs to look cool, so instead it becomes like this weird Fonzie story point where because Batman is so cool he's slightly broken.

That's why I like the 90s Tim Drake Robin so much, because he does have that extra bit of independence with Jack being his Aunt May. Batman doesn't "own" him. It makes it a bit more of Robin choosing to go into this on his own, rather than inheriting the family business.

[millernumber1]

One thing I dislike in that telling is having Bruce comes up with the name "Robin." There was this unfortunate tendency in this era to rob Dick Grayson of agency to the point where all he's ever doing is reacting to Bruce and it's unclear what drives him at all beyond that. I feel like being Robin should be a very active choice from Dick, rather than it being presented as he's drafted into this and kinda just goes along with it.

I don't love that shift — which definitely occurred during O'Neil's editorial reign, especially in Knightfall/Prodigal and beyond — and I think it mostly hurts the characters. I feel like the New 52 was onto something with framing "Robin" like a prestigious internship, more than as a bunch of adopted children. It's a mentorship.

Yeah, the whole thing felt too by the numbers. It throws the Year Ones into much stronger light - they take the time to develop to big moments and ideas.

Hmm. I actually prefer the Robin=Son thing, and the Batgirl=semi-daughter thing to just "friends." Because, to me, Batman is defined by his loss of family, and finding and making a new family is a really powerful development of his story.

[godisawesome]

I like to think of the family relationships as varied: Bruce and Dick are very much a mix of a brotherhood and master/apprentice being closer on age than the others (with Alfred as more the paternal figure there), Bruce and Jason were actually a surrogate father and son relationship, Bruce and Tim was initially strictly master/apprentice... but shifted to the paternal relationship kicking in when DC decided to kill everyone around Tim, and Cassandra as someone who very much views Bruce as a father figure but in her own almost worshipful way, with Babs becoming more the maternal and master there in terms of Cas’s growth.

I love the idea of Batman building a family, but I really do think it should vary more clearly in relationship to relationship.

[millernumber1]

I like to think of the family relationships as varied: Bruce and Dick are very much a mix of a brotherhood and master/apprentice being closer on age than the others (with Alfred as more the paternal figure there), Bruce and Jason were actually a surrogate father and son relationship, Bruce and Tim was initially strictly master/apprentice... but shifted to the paternal relationship kicking in when DC decided to kill everyone around Tim, and Cassandra as someone who very much views Bruce as a father figure but in her own almost worshipful way, with Babs becoming more the maternal and master there in terms of Cas’s growth.

I love the idea of Batman building a family, but I really do think it should vary more clearly in relationship to relationship.

That's a good point. But I think most of the writers do tend to write the Robins and Batgirls with different relationships to Bruce.

[godisawesome]

That's a good point. But I think most of the writers do tend to write the Robins and Batgirls with different relationships to Bruce.

That’s actually one of the hallmarks of this era, and was one of the things that lead to my view of them.

I think it’s been lost a bit in the post-Flashpoint era, in part because of the reboot and Didio’s hatred of “redundancy” simply eliminating many of the “required reading lists” you could otherwise depend on as the basis for future writers, and in part because of the different ways the books and characters are handled now.

Speaking of Didio... I often think that the issues caused by his very weird and intrusive creative ideas could best be seen by the impact and dichotomy he wound up having on the Batfamily towards the end of this period. It’s like, on the one hand, he and the Bat editorial post-Denny O’Neil were really, really good at getting the kind of high class talent you’d want on the books... but almost anytime he made an executive decision, gave a direct storytelling order, or allowed someone outside the Batbooks to do something Over The Top, you could always see it temporarily damaging the Batbooks before they’d usually right themselves.

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t he behind the decisions to make Steph a Robin, then kill her, then make Cass go crazy and evil (and to have Adam Beecher not do the necessary research for it), try to exile and kill much of Chuck Dixon’s creations like Blüdhaven?

Because looking back, it feels like the Bat-writers made a whole lot of lemonade out of a frankly huge amount of lemons Didio directly and indirectly shoveled their way. Bryan Q. Miller followed the returning Dixon in exploiting Steoh’s eventual return, Morrison, Snyder, and Higgins manages to exploit Geoff Johns’s fix for Cassandra Cain, and Fabian Nicieza managed to both acknowledge most of the emotional trauma Tim had gone through *and* still pull him forward organically out of it.

Meanwhile, Didio basically interrupted and delayed Batman Inc. at the height of its popularity, tried to get it rewritten through o accommodate the new landscape, and eventually just had to let Morrison deliver a somewhat truncated version eventually.

I feel like the Bat books speak for Didio’s ability to find talent, and his status as a liability towards storytelling when he gets involved there.

[millernumber1]

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t he behind the decisions to make Steph a Robin, then kill her, then make Cass go crazy and evil (and to have Adam Beecher not do the necessary research for it), try to exile and kill much of Chuck Dixon’s creations like Blüdhaven?

Because looking back, it feels like the Bat-writers made a whole lot of lemonade out of a frankly huge amount of lemons Didio directly and indirectly shoveled their way. Bryan Q. Miller followed the returning Dixon in exploiting Steoh’s eventual return, Morrison, Snyder, and Higgins manages to exploit Geoff Johns’s fix for Cassandra Cain, and Fabian Nicieza managed to both acknowledge most of the emotional trauma Tim had gone through *and* still pull him forward organically out of it.

Meanwhile, Didio basically interrupted and delayed Batman Inc. at the height of its popularity, tried to get it rewritten through o accommodate the new landscape, and eventually just had to let Morrison deliver a somewhat truncated version eventually.

I feel like the Bat books speak for Didio’s ability to find talent, and his status as a liability towards storytelling when he gets involved there.

So...the question of "who killed Steph" has no real answer, and I've been looking for 15 years. Didio and Willingham, the biggest targets, have both denied it, saying that the decision was made before they got their respective assignments (Didio in a back of the comic interview, I believe, and Willingham in a podcast around 2014). The other writers who have denied responsibility are: Devin Grayson, Ed Brubaker, Dylan Horrocks, and Gail Simone. That leaves pretty much just Andersen Gabrych (one of the co-writers of War Crimes as well, and one of the only people who has on-the-record interviews about War Crimes, in which he is very enthusiastic, which points my suspicions directly at him) and Bob Harras, the Batman Group Editor at the time, who just doesn't give interviews at all. So I personally believe it's Gabrych and Harras, not Didio or Willingham, who made the decision.

But I wouldn't be surprised if Didio actually did make the decision, and forgot or obfuscated later.

I tend to credit Chris Yost more for pulling Tim out of his darkness - yes, he wrote the early part of Red Robin, where it started very dark, but Collision was a beautiful climb into the light. Nicieza stayed in the light for an arc or so, but by the end, it was slipping down into darkness again, which has really affected my view of the second half of Red Robin.

I do think it's interesting that all of the writers who work with Dan consistently say nice things about him. At least the ones who go on the record. I don't actually know if there's NDAs preventing the cranky ones from saying anything mean. Devin Grayson's interview last year seemed to indicate that there was really something rotten in the Bat-offices after O'Neil left, and she said that the same people are still there...which could mean it was Didio or Harras or one of the other long-runners.

[gregpersons]

I like to think of the family relationships as varied: Bruce and Dick are very much a mix of a brotherhood and master/apprentice being closer on age than the others (with Alfred as more the paternal figure there), Bruce and Jason were actually a surrogate father and son relationship, Bruce and Tim was initially strictly master/apprentice... but shifted to the paternal relationship kicking in when DC decided to kill everyone around Tim, and Cassandra as someone who very much views Bruce as a father figure but in her own almost worshipful way, with Babs becoming more the maternal and master there in terms of Cas’s growth.

I love the idea of Batman building a family, but I really do think it should vary more clearly in relationship to relationship.

Agreed 100%... I definitely think they can be a "Family" but more like how they're "family" in the Fast & Furious movies. Vin Diesel doesn't need to be adopting everyone for them to be "family."

Geoff Johns really took a giant steamroller to any nuance in the DCU.

[millernumber1]

Agreed 100%... I definitely think they can be a "Family" but more like how they're "family" in the Fast & Furious movies. Vin Diesel doesn't need to be adopting everyone for them to be "family."

Geoff Johns really took a giant steamroller to any nuance in the DCU.

I don't read a lot of Johns, because he doesn't touch the Batfamily directly very often, and I don't like team or event books very much. How do you see him destroying the nuance of the Batfamily?

[gregpersons]

I don't read a lot of Johns, because he doesn't touch the Batfamily directly very often, and I don't like team or event books very much. How do you see him destroying the nuance of the Batfamily?

Maybe I have the wrong villain. I was under the assumption that Johns and Didio (as chief creative officer and editor in chief) were behind a lot of the drastic creative changes to align all of the IP to their most iconic / silver age forms.

[gregpersons]

So...the question of "who killed Steph" has no real answer, and I've been looking for 15 years. Didio and Willingham, the biggest targets, have both denied it, saying that the decision was made before they got their respective assignments (Didio in a back of the comic interview, I believe, and Willingham in a podcast around 2014). The other writers who have denied responsibility are: Devin Grayson, Ed Brubaker, Dylan Horrocks, and Gail Simone. That leaves pretty much just Andersen Gabrych (one of the co-writers of War Crimes as well, and one of the only people who has on-the-record interviews about War Crimes, in which he is very enthusiastic, which points my suspicions directly at him) and Bob Harras, the Batman Group Editor at the time, who just doesn't give interviews at all. So I personally believe it's Gabrych and Harras, not Didio or Willingham, who made the decision.

But I wouldn't be surprised if Didio actually did make the decision, and forgot or obfuscated later.

I tend to credit Chris Yost more for pulling Tim out of his darkness - yes, he wrote the early part of Red Robin, where it started very dark, but Collision was a beautiful climb into the light. Nicieza stayed in the light for an arc or so, but by the end, it was slipping down into darkness again, which has really affected my view of the second half of Red Robin.

I do think it's interesting that all of the writers who work with Dan consistently say nice things about him. At least the ones who go on the record. I don't actually know if there's NDAs preventing the cranky ones from saying anything mean. Devin Grayson's interview last year seemed to indicate that there was really something rotten in the Bat-offices after O'Neil left, and she said that the same people are still there...which could mean it was Didio or Harras or one of the other long-runners.

I'd love to read some of these interviews if you know where to find them! I always loved reading Devin Grayson being candid.