Post-Crisis, Pre-52 Appreciation 2020

[millernumber1]

Finished War Games. It was... ok? Not as bad as thought it was going to be, based on reactions I’ve read over the years. That said, I may have been ignorant all this time regarding some of the WG criticism. I was under the assumption this had big Bat-jerk energy, but I actually found Bruce was a much bigger ******* in Murderer/Fugitive, which I also recently re-read so it was fresh on the mind. Then again, reading this 15+ years after it’s release, perhaps I’m just numb to Bat-jerk in general. Perhaps the way he treated Oracle was more shocking then.

Also, I really miss Oracle.

I did think it was overly long. I probably would have been angrier reading this thing monthly.

I’ve never been a huge Spoiler fan, and I know she’s got a passionate fan base, so perhaps I’m also a bit numb to what happened there.

Of course, the ending — War Crimes — was atrocious. I absolutely cannot buy Leslie doing that. Not for a second. Seems like a grave injustice for such a long-serving/important member of the family.

All in all it definitely wasn’t up to some of the more bombastic Bat crossovers of the 90s/early 00s, but I didn’t think it was any great stain on the mythos. Except for what happened with Leslie.

Well, as a Steph fan (shocking, I know), I actually don't hate it completely. I think Batman was a massive jerk for the way he fired Steph, and I think there's massive problems with the idea that the War Games plan could go wrong from the start, but Batman still recognizes that it's his plan, but if they'd just let Steph live and learn from the event, instead of killing her off and sending the whole Batfamily away from Gotham, I think it could have actually have been relatively decent. Instead, they went with the laziest, cheapest ending possible.

[Wrestler]

I was reading Detective Comics #676 (Knightsend) and I'm on that part that Bruce wearing the Tengu Mask is facing the masters who are pupils of the master who Lady Shiva killed, well, when Bruce is facing his final test on this issue (the lady with the nunchaku), he says she is the number six, when you go back and count the masters he had faced, she was supposed to be the fifth master, they really got it wrong or am I missing something here?

[Wrestler]

I was reading Detective Comics #676 (Knightsend) and I'm on that part that Bruce wearing the Tengu Mask is facing the masters who are pupils of the master who Lady Shiva killed, well, when Bruce is facing his final test on this issue (the lady with the nunchaku), he says she is the number six, when you go back and count the masters he had faced, she was supposed to be the fifth master, they really got it wrong or am I missing something here?

I think I've found my own answer for this question. Probably he beat the fourth master but they didn't show it. Let me explain it. He beats the second master, he goes to the top of the building, but fails to jump. He beats the third master, again goes to the top of the building, fails to jump. On Detective Comics #676 he is at the top of the building (if the pattern is followed, he beat a master, but they didn't show it), and fails to jump again. When he beats the fifth and sixth master at the same time, he goes to the top of the building, jumps and succeeds. There you go.

[gregpersons]

Have you ever read the Knightfall novel by Dennis O'Neil? It's pretty interesting in the way it diverges slightly from the comics throughout, especially in my mind is the different version of Shiva re-training Bruce that's a bit more intimate, and I think changes some other details... it also reduces the number of assassins or does it as a montage or something.

I always want to like KnightsEnd more than I actually do, if that makes sense... it does a lot of things I like in theory but I think what holds me back is the art. I like the Graham Nolan Detective issues but some of those exaggerated faces and bodies by other artists just makes it all seem kind of uglier or cringier than it needs to be. It feels more coherent than KnightQuest but still more 'all over the place' than Knightfall.

[bob.schoonover]

If you didn't see it, a Gotham Knights by Grayson v2 is being released this fall. That'll complete her run in tpb form, and hopefully (but not likely) lead to a GK by Beatty collection. I loved his run with Bane's search for his father finally paying off from Legacy, the Huntress three parter, and a few fun one offs. I will not suggest we get a 4th volume of GK since this is an appreciation thread.

We're also just a Larry Hama 7 issue run on Batman being collected from having all of the New Gotham stories in a convenient format.

[millernumber1]

Have you ever read the Knightfall novel by Dennis O'Neil? It's pretty interesting in the way it diverges slightly from the comics throughout, especially in my mind is the different version of Shiva re-training Bruce that's a bit more intimate, and I think changes some other details... it also reduces the number of assassins or does it as a montage or something.

I always want to like KnightsEnd more than I actually do, if that makes sense... it does a lot of things I like in theory but I think what holds me back is the art. I like the Graham Nolan Detective issues but some of those exaggerated faces and bodies by other artists just makes it all seem kind of uglier or cringier than it needs to be. It feels more coherent than KnightQuest but still more 'all over the place' than Knightfall.

I have only read bits and pieces of the novel, but I adore the radio dramatization of Knightfall. It streamlines the plot and really hones in on character drama.

If you didn't see it, a Gotham Knights by Grayson v2 is being released this fall. That'll complete her run in tpb form, and hopefully (but not likely) lead to a GK by Beatty collection. I loved his run with Bane's search for his father finally paying off from Legacy, the Huntress three parter, and a few fun one offs. I will not suggest we get a 4th volume of GK since this is an appreciation thread.

We're also just a Larry Hama 7 issue run on Batman being collected from having all of the New Gotham stories in a convenient format.

We're also getting the first volume of her Nightwing run collected (the Gotham Knights thing makes sense to me, the Nightwing thing much less so).

Also, lol about no Hush Returns collection.

https://www.amazon.com/Nightwing-Sup...=Devin+Grayson
https://www.amazon.com/Batman-Knight...=Devin+Grayson

[godisawesome]

So, in last because of our current situation and in part because I never actually read it through all the way the first time, I finally read Contagion and Legacy.

They really blend as one single long story more than a proper prequel and sequel.

Contagion is surprisingly tightly written, and I really felt the desperation of the story... but it’s beginning and middle are much stronger than its somewhat ho-hum end. Having the hunt for previous survivors end up as a wild goose chase and red herring wastes arguably the best plotted sequences of the story between Robin, Catwoman, and Azrael, while the eventual solution (Azrael just finding the cure in the Order of St. Dumas’s books) is really anti-climactic. Dixon and others apparently felt the story was always a little tricky, since it didn’t have a conflict Batman could punch his way out of, and now that we’re in an actual pandemic ourselves, it does strike me as being a storyline idea that could have used more focus on the human drama and on the different reactions people have to adversity rather than in trying to treat The Clench as some arch-fiend to be fought. Little things at the start, like Mayor Karol and the new Police Commissioner failing to prevent it, feel oddly prescient and probably should have been featured more, potentially with more scenes for Gordon and Bruce Wayne. Robin getting sick is the only really strong part of the last act, and it feels like it might have benefitted from the more subtle and emotional type of struggle that No Man’s Land got - at its best, contagion feels like a proto-No Man’s Land, but at its worst it feels like an unfinished story...

...Which is why it kind of needs Legacy to try and bring it home. Oddly, Legacy now feels a bit depleted compared to what I thought it sounded like: Bane as Ra’s heir is an intriguing idea that really could have been explored more, and Legacy’s two “tie-in” arcs - Catwoman being kidnapped by Hellhound to find the Great Wheel and Bane of the Demon - are both honestly a bit more intriguing than the overall Legacy story, and greatly improve it.

I think the biggest limitation to Legacy is that ultimately it’s a bit more fo a rote Ra’s Al Ghul throwback storyline than necessarily a major crossover. It’s a story that would have been an arc in a single comic, that gets elevated by the material around it and a highlight arc for Bane when all it’s spinoffs are taken into consideration.

[sunofdarkchild]

The biggest problem with War Games as a story was that the character motivations to set it up made no sense and were inconsistent with what had been established.

Batman's motivation for taking Stephanie on as Robin was to get Tim back in the role by making him jealous. Not only is that once again super-manipulative of two teenagers, but it's a stupid plan. Tim was retired because his father found out he was Robin and forbade him from continuing, not because he wanted to retire. Bruce's whole scheme ignored the central issue keeping Tim from coming back. Had Tim retired because he was sick of Bruce's games or just wanted to hang up the cape it would have made more sense.

In Robin, Steph goes to Batman also to make Tim jealous because a miscommunication made her think Tim was cheating on her. It wasn't even about getting Batman's acceptance. It was about getting back at Tim. When Batman fires her it becomes about acceptance again. This should have been much more consistent. If they were going to have Steph approach Batman after all the crap he'd already put her through it should have had more to do with the then-recent death of her father and her need for a parental figure.

Even Tim isn't immune to this stupidity. Somehow, now that he is no longer a superhero and has more free time than he knows what to do with, he speaks to her a total of once over the course of at least 2 months, the same girlfriend who he knows had a broken leg. But the first time he even tries to call her is after she's already gone to Batman. The entire plot doesn't happen if Tim picks up the phone once over the course of about 2 months.

Why does Tim not use his newfound free time to see his girlfriend more? Plot induced stupidity to justify her being jealous. Why does Stephanie need to be jealous in the first place? To justify the plot-induced stupidity she gets saddled with. Why does Bruce use Steph to make Tim jealous when it's a plan that a two-year-old could see would never work? More plot-induced stupidity. This is why Bruce's manipulations and bat-jerk tendencies stand out in War Games. Normally there's a reason for it: he's overly protective of the person in question, trying to push them to be more than they currently are, or is just being overly controlling. This time, there is no reason. He's just a manipulative a-hole who's also an idiot.

This is all just the prelude to the crossover itself, where it turns out every inch of character development Steph ever had in her entire history is forgotten, it turns out Bruce didn't learn a thing from the time Ra's al Ghul stole his plans to take out the Justice League, Leslie Thompkins deliberately lets a teenager die, and it turns out that Batman is completely useless since after around 15 years the mob is still so powerful that a simple gang war can destroy the city.

[millernumber1]

Some cool news - we're getting a Nightwing Year One Deluxe edition, with trade dress that matches the Robin and Batgirl Year One editions! I'm probably going to get them all in June so they match (and because I adore the Year One line).

[millernumber1]

So, in last because of our current situation and in part because I never actually read it through all the way the first time, I finally read Contagion and Legacy.

They really blend as one single long story more than a proper prequel and sequel.

Contagion is surprisingly tightly written, and I really felt the desperation of the story... but it’s beginning and middle are much stronger than its somewhat ho-hum end. Having the hunt for previous survivors end up as a wild goose chase and red herring wastes arguably the best plotted sequences of the story between Robin, Catwoman, and Azrael, while the eventual solution (Azrael just finding the cure in the Order of St. Dumas’s books) is really anti-climactic. Dixon and others apparently felt the story was always a little tricky, since it didn’t have a conflict Batman could punch his way out of, and now that we’re in an actual pandemic ourselves, it does strike me as being a storyline idea that could have used more focus on the human drama and on the different reactions people have to adversity rather than in trying to treat The Clench as some arch-fiend to be fought. Little things at the start, like Mayor Karol and the new Police Commissioner failing to prevent it, feel oddly prescient and probably should have been featured more, potentially with more scenes for Gordon and Bruce Wayne. Robin getting sick is the only really strong part of the last act, and it feels like it might have benefitted from the more subtle and emotional type of struggle that No Man’s Land got - at its best, contagion feels like a proto-No Man’s Land, but at its worst it feels like an unfinished story...

...Which is why it kind of needs Legacy to try and bring it home. Oddly, Legacy now feels a bit depleted compared to what I thought it sounded like: Bane as Ra’s heir is an intriguing idea that really could have been explored more, and Legacy’s two “tie-in” arcs - Catwoman being kidnapped by Hellhound to find the Great Wheel and Bane of the Demon - are both honestly a bit more intriguing than the overall Legacy story, and greatly improve it.

I think the biggest limitation to Legacy is that ultimately it’s a bit more fo a rote Ra’s Al Ghul throwback storyline than necessarily a major crossover. It’s a story that would have been an arc in a single comic, that gets elevated by the material around it and a highlight arc for Bane when all it’s spinoffs are taken into consideration.

I have only read Contagion in part - I started a few weeks ago, but it didn't quite enthuse me. I'm not sure if I completely agree that Batman has to be able to punch something - but I quite liked Cataclysm, a lot more than Legacy and the bits of Contagion I've read. (This may or may not have to do with the fact that Steph has a solo issue in Cataclysm ).

To be fair, Contagion and Cataclysm are both unfinished stories because they were all building to NML. And as such, I think they're part of a really cool effort at the end of the 90s to have something huge happen to Gotham and all the characters that really paid off.

When I read Legacy a few months ago, I was struck by how much it's a fun Indiana Jones style adventure, especially the bits like Catwoman. But it also has that late-90s disaster movie feeling, combined with the terror of Ebola (similar to Star Wars: X-Wing: The Krytos Trap, also from that time period).

The biggest problem with War Games as a story was that the character motivations to set it up made no sense and were inconsistent with what had been established.

Batman's motivation for taking Stephanie on as Robin was to get Tim back in the role by making him jealous. Not only is that once again super-manipulative of two teenagers, but it's a stupid plan. Tim was retired because his father found out he was Robin and forbade him from continuing, not because he wanted to retire. Bruce's whole scheme ignored the central issue keeping Tim from coming back. Had Tim retired because he was sick of Bruce's games or just wanted to hang up the cape it would have made more sense.

In Robin, Steph goes to Batman also to make Tim jealous because a miscommunication made her think Tim was cheating on her. It wasn't even about getting Batman's acceptance. It was about getting back at Tim. When Batman fires her it becomes about acceptance again. This should have been much more consistent. If they were going to have Steph approach Batman after all the crap he'd already put her through it should have had more to do with the then-recent death of her father and her need for a parental figure.

Even Tim isn't immune to this stupidity. Somehow, now that he is no longer a superhero and has more free time than he knows what to do with, he speaks to her a total of once over the course of at least 2 months, the same girlfriend who he knows had a broken leg. But the first time he even tries to call her is after she's already gone to Batman. The entire plot doesn't happen if Tim picks up the phone once over the course of about 2 months.

Why does Tim not use his newfound free time to see his girlfriend more? Plot induced stupidity to justify her being jealous. Why does Stephanie need to be jealous in the first place? To justify the plot-induced stupidity she gets saddled with. Why does Bruce use Steph to make Tim jealous when it's a plan that a two-year-old could see would never work? More plot-induced stupidity. This is why Bruce's manipulations and bat-jerk tendencies stand out in War Games. Normally there's a reason for it: he's overly protective of the person in question, trying to push them to be more than they currently are, or is just being overly controlling. This time, there is no reason. He's just a manipulative a-hole who's also an idiot.

This is all just the prelude to the crossover itself, where it turns out every inch of character development Steph ever had in her entire history is forgotten, it turns out Bruce didn't learn a thing from the time Ra's al Ghul stole his plans to take out the Justice League, Leslie Thompkins deliberately lets a teenager die, and it turns out that Batman is completely useless since after around 15 years the mob is still so powerful that a simple gang war can destroy the city.

I'd say that the motivations being incoherent is always what happens when you dictate character death as the POINT of a story, rather than being the natural result of a story (both Jack and Steph's deaths were dictated well over a year before the story was published, both of which radically deformed Willingham's plans).

Completely agree that it makes no sense for Bruce to make Tim jealous of Steph, as he didn't quit Robin because of his own desires. https://stephaniebrown.fandom.com/wi...d_Magazine_150 shows that Steph actually has more motivations than just jealousy to become Robin, but stupidly, they have never reprinted that story as part of War Games or even War Drums - when they even included the Solo short story in the reprints from a few years back, this ommission makes no sense whatsoever. It was a real revelation to me when I found out it existed (by seeing Damion Scott's art for sale).

And rereading Robin 126 recently in the run-up to Robin 80th, it is bizarre who not-Robin Tim hasn't hung out with Steph at all since her leg healed, almost a month. When her leg was broken, they were hanging out quite a bit on page, having coffee and such. But suddenly, her leg is healed and now he's been absent for three weeks?

I still actually think that 1) the plan of the War Games themselves are a cool, Batman-like idea, and 2) Steph desperate to get Bruce's approval back are actually pretty decent story concepts. But to have the plan go horribly wrong from the start, and then have it still proceed so perfectly that Batman can realize what is happening halfway through, is moronic. And to have Steph clearly on an arc to improve and become a better hero, and then just kill her off, is beyond stupid.

[Will Evans]

Meanwhile, Orpheus says hello.

Oh wait.....he can’t....he dead.

[bob.schoonover]

So, in last because of our current situation and in part because I never actually read it through all the way the first time, I finally read Contagion and Legacy.

They really blend as one single long story more than a proper prequel and sequel.

Contagion is surprisingly tightly written, and I really felt the desperation of the story... but it’s beginning and middle are much stronger than its somewhat ho-hum end. Having the hunt for previous survivors end up as a wild goose chase and red herring wastes arguably the best plotted sequences of the story between Robin, Catwoman, and Azrael, while the eventual solution (Azrael just finding the cure in the Order of St. Dumas’s books) is really anti-climactic. Dixon and others apparently felt the story was always a little tricky, since it didn’t have a conflict Batman could punch his way out of, and now that we’re in an actual pandemic ourselves, it does strike me as being a storyline idea that could have used more focus on the human drama and on the different reactions people have to adversity rather than in trying to treat The Clench as some arch-fiend to be fought. Little things at the start, like Mayor Karol and the new Police Commissioner failing to prevent it, feel oddly prescient and probably should have been featured more, potentially with more scenes for Gordon and Bruce Wayne. Robin getting sick is the only really strong part of the last act, and it feels like it might have benefitted from the more subtle and emotional type of struggle that No Man’s Land got - at its best, contagion feels like a proto-No Man’s Land, but at its worst it feels like an unfinished story...

...Which is why it kind of needs Legacy to try and bring it home. Oddly, Legacy now feels a bit depleted compared to what I thought it sounded like: Bane as Ra’s heir is an intriguing idea that really could have been explored more, and Legacy’s two “tie-in” arcs - Catwoman being kidnapped by Hellhound to find the Great Wheel and Bane of the Demon - are both honestly a bit more intriguing than the overall Legacy story, and greatly improve it.

I think the biggest limitation to Legacy is that ultimately it’s a bit more fo a rote Ra’s Al Ghul throwback storyline than necessarily a major crossover. It’s a story that would have been an arc in a single comic, that gets elevated by the material around it and a highlight arc for Bane when all it’s spinoffs are taken into consideration.

I have only read Contagion in part - I started a few weeks ago, but it didn't quite enthuse me. I'm not sure if I completely agree that Batman has to be able to punch something - but I quite liked Cataclysm, a lot more than Legacy and the bits of Contagion I've read. (This may or may not have to do with the fact that Steph has a solo issue in Cataclysm ).

To be fair, Contagion and Cataclysm are both unfinished stories because they were all building to NML. And as such, I think they're part of a really cool effort at the end of the 90s to have something huge happen to Gotham and all the characters that really paid off.

When I read Legacy a few months ago, I was struck by how much it's a fun Indiana Jones style adventure, especially the bits like Catwoman. But it also has that late-90s disaster movie feeling, combined with the terror of Ebola (similar to Star Wars: X-Wing: The Krytos Trap, also from that time period).

I think Cataclysm did much better with the "man on the street" stuff related to yet another event Batman can't punch away - Cataclysm was a bit long and meandering for my liking, but it's definitely better at hitting the entire scope of what befell Gotham. The one issue where Bruce is posing as a cop so he can help during the day was a very specific story that might have been interesting in Contagion - Bruce Wayne working at a hospital or something like that might have given Bruce's part of the story a bit more gravitas.

Contagion's dues ex libris ending (I think I got the Latin right) is a bit of a cop out if Legacy wasn't in the works already. I don't love the "it's an ancient virus and Ra's is responsible" as a conclusion, but it's fitting and probably the only way to play fair with a contagion given the normal time tables for finding vaccines. I mean, mutant healer, alien super antibody, Amazonian purple healing ray, etc., are all in play, but are probably bigger cop outs.

One of the things I enjoyed about this era (and the thing that irritates me about the New 52 onwards) is how the tight-knittedness of the Bat-family means we can get weird and fun pairings w/o having to have three issues explaining why. Tynion's 'Tec run helped a bit in this regard, but there's still a gulf between so many characters all the time it's weird to look back on this era and think of these big events or a mini like Batman Family and think, "Oh, they could just be like this"

[godisawesome]

I think Cataclysm did much better with the "man on the street" stuff related to yet another event Batman can't punch away - Cataclysm was a bit long and meandering for my liking, but it's definitely better at hitting the entire scope of what befell Gotham. The one issue where Bruce is posing as a cop so he can help during the day was a very specific story that might have been interesting in Contagion - Bruce Wayne working at a hospital or something like that might have given Bruce's part of the story a bit more gravitas.

Contagion's dues ex libris ending (I think I got the Latin right) is a bit of a cop out if Legacy wasn't in the works already. I don't love the "it's an ancient virus and Ra's is responsible" as a conclusion, but it's fitting and probably the only way to play fair with a contagion given the normal time tables for finding vaccines. I mean, mutant healer, alien super antibody, Amazonian purple healing ray, etc., are all in play, but are probably bigger cop outs.

One of the things I enjoyed about this era (and the thing that irritates me about the New 52 onwards) is how the tight-knittedness of the Bat-family means we can get weird and fun pairings w/o having to have three issues explaining why. Tynion's 'Tec run helped a bit in this regard, but there's still a gulf between so many characters all the time it's weird to look back on this era and think of these big events or a mini like Batman Family and think, "Oh, they could just be like this"

Yeah, Contagion honestly feels like a story that could be revisited to redone and given a bit more time to play to the concept’s strengths.

The tight-knittedness benefitted a lot from having so many cooperative writers in the stable under O’Neill. Dixon’s the most famous “workhorse” during the era, but the period benefitted from having Moench, Grant, and other work under and with O’Neill as well. And they worked hard to get the feeling and chemistry between the characters right, even when clashing; the Huntress vs Oracle as Dick’s love interest period actually worked out okay, all things considered.

The RIP era may have seen somewhat higher standards in terms of just the sheer standard of writers across the board, but they weren’t quite as cooperative as the O’Neill era. Snyder’s rise towards the end and through into the New 52 probably had something to who with him bringing in guys like Higgins and Tynion in and wanting to do big projects like Eternal.

[millernumber1]

Yeah, Contagion honestly feels like a story that could be revisited to redone and given a bit more time to play to the concept’s strengths.

The tight-knittedness benefitted a lot from having so many cooperative writers in the stable under O’Neill. Dixon’s the most famous “workhorse” during the era, but the period benefitted from having Moench, Grant, and other work under and with O’Neill as well. And they worked hard to get the feeling and chemistry between the characters right, even when clashing; the Huntress vs Oracle as Dick’s love interest period actually worked out okay, all things considered.

The RIP era may have seen somewhat higher standards in terms of just the sheer standard of writers across the board, but they weren’t quite as cooperative as the O’Neill era. Snyder’s rise towards the end and through into the New 52 probably had something to who with him bringing in guys like Higgins and Tynion in and wanting to do big projects like Eternal.

The combination of O'Neill's relatively ego-less editorial (he rarely pushed to kill characters or get celebrity writers, and yes, he had an ego...otherwise why would Azrael have 100 issues when he's the writer? ), and the really solid writing team without huge standout celebrities looking to become "names" is, actually, somewhat similar to what Snyder did with Tynion, Higgins, Bennett, and many other students he got to help him out. Snyder has much more of an ego than O'Neil, but he is also very generous and desirous of getting a tight knit group of writers to tell their own stories...as long as they don't bother his story. (Though I would point out that it's Tynion who wanted to do Eternal, not Snyder himself.) Tynion, though he does have flaws, is the closest we have to a 90s writer, I think - someone who simply loves stories, loves comics, and wants to tell stories with as many people as he can without too much ego getting in the way.

[Wrestler]

I have only read Contagion in part - I started a few weeks ago, but it didn't quite enthuse me. I'm not sure if I completely agree that Batman has to be able to punch something - but I quite liked Cataclysm, a lot more than Legacy and the bits of Contagion I've read. (This may or may not have to do with the fact that Steph has a solo issue in Cataclysm ).

To be fair, Contagion and Cataclysm are both unfinished stories because they were all building to NML. And as such, I think they're part of a really cool effort at the end of the 90s to have something huge happen to Gotham and all the characters that really paid off.

When I read Legacy a few months ago, I was struck by how much it's a fun Indiana Jones style adventure, especially the bits like Catwoman. But it also has that late-90s disaster movie feeling, combined with the terror of Ebola (similar to Star Wars: X-Wing: The Krytos Trap, also from that time period).

I would definitely put Legacy above Contagion and Cataclysm, these two in the same level, actually I'd rank Cataclysm a little bit highter than Contagion, but that mistake they did with quakemaster saying the letter B ("Burn Gothan(...)") right in the beginning of the story annoyed me big time, especially when this is the whole point how Robin found out who Quakemaster was after all.