Post-Crisis, Pre-52 Appreciation 2020

[gregpersons]

Interesting. I really like Heart of Hush.

I think that seems to be the prevailing opinion on the Hush sequel stories. People seem to like "Heart of Hush" and hate "Hush Returns."

"Heart of Hush" has some cute moments that I like -- Batman on the message boards; the stuff relating to Batman's love for Selina -- but overall I think Tommy Elliott is a huge dud of a character because his origin is so stupid. Spending more time on the origin, even trying to beef it up with some helpful context like Dini does, just doesn't work for me. Also the central plot is pretty dumb.

"Hush Returns" is pretty dumb too, and it also has fun moments. Joker and Riddler and Penguin teaming up is good. I remember a lot of complaints that Joker acted "out of character" in this arc but I don't agree... but then, I quite like the times when Joker shows a different flavor of his personality (Morrison, King).

I think both stories are basically about the same level of quality but "Returns" is the only one of the three Hush stories that doesn't do flashbacks to young Tommy so it gets the winning point for that.

Anyway if you have the DCU app, please check out Gotham Knights #67 because it's truly WTF.

[David Walton]

I think Collins has a point...but I read Batman very symbolically. So I don't mind if he shrugs off a lot, though I'd like him to have some reaction to pain. I think Batman 1989 went too far in that direction, having Batman be pretty darn incompetent, getting beaten by Joker's thugs pretty easily at the end.

Oh, I'm agreed. I read Batman symbolically too. I think you just have to find the balance (and every story has different demands). I wouldn't want to see Batman getting taken out by thugs all the time because he should have a certain kind of mystique. But every once in a while you want a reminder that he is human.

I think King did strike a pretty good balance--not long after Batman took on the soldiers at Pena Duro, Holly took him by surprise. So you get to have your cake and eat it too.

As far as contradictions go, I subscribe to Whitman's philosophy: "Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes..."

And I'm fine with the scene in Batman '89 because I was under the impression that he hadn't been Batman for very long at that point. So it's not terribly different than him getting the television dropped on his head in Year One.

I smile at your logical approach to Batman's age. At this point, Batman can do whatever the story wants him to do. I think it mostly matters whether we buy it or not.

Dark Knight Returns would be the most obvious example, where Bruce pulls off some incredible physical feats in his fifties or sixties.

[millernumber1]

Oh, I'm agreed. I read Batman symbolically too. I think you just have to find the balance (and every story has different demands). I wouldn't want to see Batman getting taken out by thugs all the time because he should have a certain kind of mystique. But every once in a while you want a reminder that he is human.

I think King did strike a pretty good balance--not long after Batman took on the soldiers at Pena Duro, Holly took him by surprise. So you get to have your cake and eat it too.

As far as contradictions go, I subscribe to Whitman's philosophy: "Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes..."

And I'm fine with the scene in Batman '89 because I was under the impression that he hadn't been Batman for very long at that point. So it's not terribly different than him getting the television dropped on his head in Year One.

Dark Knight Returns would be the most obvious example, where Bruce pulls off some incredible physical feats in his fifties or sixties.

Well said - the balance of believability for Batman - I do sometimes pity the writers, as expectations are so high for Batman at this point. Both King and Tynion got accused of "hating" Batman because he lost (or suffered emotionally) in some of his fights - which I still think is ridiculous. Do Dixon and Moench "hate" Batman because of Knightfall?

Oooh, I like being accidentally more consistent than I thought. And nice Whitman!

That is a good point about Batman 89. I had a difficult time seeing that, since Keaton was 40 years old when filming, but it makes sense.

[David Walton]

Didio wouldn’t be so bad if he didn’t combine a marketing first mentality (note: I didn’t say “market” first mentality) with simply bad taste; the Bat books just tend to feel it more by his perplexingly contradictory and just clearly bad decisions.

Like, Nightwing would have been totally safe if Didio realized the monetary value of the character by that point, or had the taste to recognize the quality in the character over the long run. Dick Grayson is in many ways just as much of a standard bearer as many of the JL7 characters. If you were just looking for consistent IPs people would buy, he’d be clocked as one, and there was exactly zero sign that he was cutting into Batman’s market share at all. A cursory glance would show that the Nightwing and Batman IPs are complimentary goods, that assist each other, not hinder each other.

But Didio was convinced that “old” Batman is scary or less interesting to audiences and new readers. This in spite of the fact that since at least the 80’s, Batman was pretty much always portrayed as being in his mid-to-late 30’s in modern times - and that period saw its first real spike around the time Frank Miller produced the first real “Old Man Batman” book , and when Batman managed to eventually surpass Superman in sales, especially once spinoffs were included.

Similarly, Didio seems to have showed that he and DC were heavily interested in a minority Batman character, so he kept pushing for new flavors of Batwing when the first one didn’t take off as he’d hoped, and he clearly wants to break into more niche and mainstream markets. But he allowed both Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown’s series to get cancelled, even though Cass was an successful Asian-American character, and Steph was making headway in the TPB lists that were appealing to young adults... and then he exiled both of them because he thought that their mere existence was a threat to Babs returning as Batgirl... which meant that he was also removing *two* characters with disabilities from the Batfamily as well, and right after Morrisonn/Snyder/everyone else had proved that you didn’t have to keep Cassandra in limbo to protect the Batgirl IP.

And I have to say that I think part of his problem isn’t that he hates the 90’s - it’s that he seems to think that Marvel’s artificial and doomed market spike in the 90’s is the way to go, compared to DC’s steady quality at the time. I mean, a lot of his New 52 ideas scream someone who tried to replicate Heroes Reborn, cover gimmicks, editorial-driven and artist-over-writing thinking that crashed the comic market.

Which is part of the reason why the Batman and Flash fans are so easily perturbed and annoyed by him - they were the primary beneficiaries of DC’s writing first focus leading to a string of successful runs that added up as time went on, and both arguably exploded more in the 90’s than other brands.

I think Didio, rightly or wrongly, tends to view DC through the lens of a "Crisis" tradition where characters are perpetually reverted to an earlier state via soft relaunches every five or ten years. The other school of thought would be that Crisis was always intended as a one-off solution to build a foundation for a Marvel-like universe with a tighter continuity that is constantly expanding and referencing itself. So I think he's not personally enamored with historical in-universe developments that he'd just assume shed entirely. And much to his credit, he recognized how passionate the post-Crisis fanbase felt and made some compromises to his personal vision to try and meet them with Rebirth.

I think overall Didio has done a good job with DC, and I say that as someone frustrated by his vision (or lack of vision) for Dick Grayson and Wally West. I think he's generated interest with the New 52 and he's recognized fans' concerns and responded in the form of Rebirth. I tend to think he's strongest with the weirder and less populated corners of the DCU. Loved his OMAC series with Keith Giffen and his re-imagining of Phantom Stranger as Judas Iscariot (a book which he eventually handed writing duties over to the brilliant J.M. DeMatteis).

I agree that Batman should be in his late 30s/early 40s, rather than a decade younger. Tom Brady is in his 40s and still playing in the NFL... in hockey and basketball and baseball, athletes playing into their 40s isn't unprecedented.

Batman should be like John McClane in "Die Hard" — it's not that he's physically unstoppable, but that he can take a beating and still keep going because of his determination and cleverness.

Exactly!

[David Walton]

Well said - the balance of believability for Batman - I do sometimes pity the writers, as expectations are so high for Batman at this point. Both King and Tynion got accused of "hating" Batman because he lost (or suffered emotionally) in some of his fights - which I still think is ridiculous. Do Dixon and Moench "hate" Batman because of Knightfall?

And some of those same posters have probably complained about 'batgod' at some point!

Oooh, I like being accidentally more consistent than I thought. And nice Whitman!

Whitman rules!

That is a good point about Batman 89. I had a difficult time seeing that, since Keaton was 40 years old when filming, but it makes sense.

That's my in-universe explanation. Real world explanation, I think the suit was too stiff to film elaborate fight scenes! Poor Keaton couldn't even turn his neck.

[millernumber1]

That's my in-universe explanation. Real world explanation, I think the suit was too stiff to film elaborate fight scenes! Poor Keaton couldn't even turn his neck.

I do sometimes wonder why no artist has take the cue from The Dark Knight and made the cowl more of a helmet, which I quite liked about that series.

[Wrestler]

I do sometimes wonder why no artist has take the cue from The Dark Knight and made the cowl more of a helmet, which I quite liked about that series.

Never thought of that, but that would be good, maybe then some foe would have the brilliant idea of aiming at his head.

[David Walton]

A thought that occurred to me recently: I think Chuck Dixon's prolific stretch in the 90s helped make all the books in the Bat-family line feel equal. Given that he had a creative stake in so many characters there was never a sense that he was sacrificing one to the interests of advancing another's character's story. And maybe that would have been true with or without his involvement but it certainly didn't hurt.

[millernumber1]

A thought that occurred to me recently: I think Chuck Dixon's prolific stretch in the 90s helped make all the books in the Bat-family line feel equal. Given that he had a creative stake in so many characters there was never a sense that he was sacrificing one to the interests of advancing another's character's story. And maybe that would have been true with or without his involvement but it certainly didn't hurt.

I mean, it was clear every time one of the characters he was using showed up in another title he was writing (Robin showing up in Birds of Prey, etc) that it would be a good characterization, and not just a character thrown in there. Part of me wants to know what it would be like if Bendis turned all the energy he's pouring into the Superman books into the Batfamily books. And part of me dreads it.

[David Walton]

I mean, it was clear every time one of the characters he was using showed up in another title he was writing (Robin showing up in Birds of Prey, etc) that it would be a good characterization, and not just a character thrown in there. Part of me wants to know what it would be like if Bendis turned all the energy he's pouring into the Superman books into the Batfamily books. And part of me dreads it.

Well, I suspect Bendis would be given complete control, which is a different thing entirely than Dixon being prolific but still working in concert with so many other voices.

[millernumber1]

Well, I suspect Bendis would be given complete control, which is a different thing entirely than Dixon being prolific but still working in concert with so many other voices.

Right, which is partly why I dread it - but Bendis is the only person I can think of who even comes close to the number of ongoing titles that Dixon had.

[David Walton]

Right, which is partly why I dread it - but Bendis is the only person I can think of who even comes close to the number of ongoing titles that Dixon had.

Yeah, absolutely nothing against Bendis, but I prefer that the Bat-family books never be limited to one voice.

[millernumber1]

Yeah, absolutely nothing against Bendis, but I prefer that the Bat-family books never be limited to one voice.

I mean, I'm generally positive towards Bendis, but I think he's extremely varied. Dixon varied a bit, too - how could you not, with that many titles - but not nearly as much as Bendis for me. I do wish the Bat-office felt more like a group of buddies who all read and planned together constantly. But even when you have close collaborators, like Tynion and Snyder, their stuff doesn't always seem to line up these days. I don't quite know how that could be fixed, but I do think Tynion is the type to try it.

[Digifiend]

I have no solid evidence on that one, but it does sound kind of like what happened with the Bat-women during the n52, when Kate and Babs were the only ones who stuck around, while Steph, Cass, and Helena Bertinelli were all erased for 3-4 years.

Not really erased. Grayson revealed that Helena had faked her death. The ex-Batgirls were rebooted though, regaining their old histories when the Rebirth Detective Comics run ended.

[millernumber1]

Not really erased. Grayson revealed that Helena had faked her death. The ex-Batgirls were rebooted though, regaining their old histories when the Rebirth Detective Comics run ended.

I mean, that was a retcon 3 years later, as were the Steph and Cass reboots. From 2011-2014, they were all erased. And some were not even allowed to appear in alternate universes, like Lil Gotham and Smallville. (Helena did get an Arrow appearance.)