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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    4. FabNic’s Robin/Red Robin run, Bryan Q. Miller’s Batgirl, and Gates of Gotham. To me, these are the things that made the Pre-New 52 Renaissance something special, feeling like a genuinely new generation of Batman stories, that in combination with Dini and Snyder’s work... kind of meant that I didn’t have to actually read Batman Inc to actually like the era. Like, I can argue why Morrison’s work is a Masterpiece... but I didn’t really get into it, and I would still call this the best Batman era because of the stuff around it.
    This is my favorite status quo, as well... I think the Batman story becomes 10x more interesting when the allies are the focus and the main question is whether or not they can live up to Bruce's grand legacy.

    5. Dixon’s runs on Robin and Nightwing, plus Batgirl Vol. 1’s entire run, all writers involved. Dixon basically simultaneously built up two different settings, ensemble casts, and villain galleries, and was on such a roll that he *accidentally* made Stephanie Briwn a cult favorite - not that surprising, considering he’s the same guy who forgot that he wrote one of Cassandra Cain’s last good appearances pre-Batman RIP. And speaking of Batgirl... Cassandra Cain’s first run as a solo hero didn’t need a reboot to go as long as it did, and honestly should have been adapted into a cartoon by now.
    Well, he didn't accidentally make Steph a cult favorite — it wasn't like it happened on its own. He clearly had a ton of affection for the character. One of Dixon's great strengths was grounding the characters in believably real world dynamics.

    In addition to Robin and Nightwing, he was also writing Detective or Batman, plus Birds Of Prey and sometimes Catwoman. Simultaneously! He doesn't get nearly enough credit!

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    This is my favorite status quo, as well... I think the Batman story becomes 10x more interesting when the allies are the focus and the main question is whether or not they can live up to Bruce's grand legacy.



    Well, he didn't accidentally make Steph a cult favorite — it wasn't like it happened on its own. He clearly had a ton of affection for the character. One of Dixon's great strengths was grounding the characters in believably real world dynamics.

    In addition to Robin and Nightwing, he was also writing Detective or Batman, plus Birds Of Prey and sometimes Catwoman. Simultaneously! He doesn't get nearly enough credit!
    Dixon at his prime was basically the greatest workhorse in the Batman line’s history, especially when working under Denny O’Neil - that seemed to be the perfect blend of a strong editorial vision with strong authorial vision. Dixon’s no angel now, and his best work is still arguably all the stuff pre-NML, but he was a solid multi-tasker.

    O’Neil already has a place in the comic hall of fame as a writer, but I honestly think he should maybe be considered the second most prolific editor behind Julie Schwartz. He’s the guy behind a lot of the 90’s era stuff for the Batman books.
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

    I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP

  3. #18
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    Wow, can I get in on this action? This is also my favorite era, and I still miss it (I still think Rebirth's strongest aspect is how they brought a huge chunk of this period back).

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I think War Games was the only major crossover/event that got a bad reputation during this period, or at least the only one that didn’t later receive a slight resurgence as time crept by. It kind of hit the perfect storm of a bad editorial mandate (“Make Stephanie Brown a Robin for a few months then kill her”), a rough time with one of the arcs it was crossing over with (Devin Grayson’s Nightwing run, which neither helped War Games or was helped by War Games), a displeasing denouement (Leslie Thompson’s supposedly letting Steph die to teach Bruce a lesson) that fans rejected as well...

    ...And then was promptly and immediately overshadowed by Under the Hood in Batman, Cass Cain’s book hitting an actually decent climax before OYL tried to one up the angry Steph fans with Evil!Cass, and then Morrison’s arrival pretty much overshadowed everything, even the undoing of War Games’s events, and then it was forgotten hard, especially with the late renaissance Morrison brought to basically all characters even indirectly right before the New 52.

    This time period could largely be described as “Holy crap, the Bat books went on for a decade plus just being awesome, and expanded so well, then had one small series of hiccups they got over quickly, got damn good again pretty much all across the board... then Dan Didio interrupted it for his marketing ideas, screwed up a handful of the cast with his mandates, delayed Batman Inc’s continution because of his stupid obsession with hating Stephanie Brown.”
    I honestly don't understand how you can read this era and think that the people in charge (Didio and Harras) don't hate Steph and Cass. And yet, I have DC readers challenging me to "prove" that DC editorial hates Steph and Cass...and I'm just incredibly frustrated.

    I have a more complicated reaction to War Games than I think a lot of Steph fans do - it was my first real introduction to her, and I loved her in it, plus it gave us Steph Robin and "Part of the legend," two things I think will live on in Steph history forever (and should). But it was a mess with no real coherent point.

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I literally don’t want War Games, Evil Cass, that Nightwing Annual that had Dick sleep with Babs after she got paralyzed then a week later invited her to his wedding... stuff like that popped up much more frequently around that time, and I’d rather “prune the bushes” of that timeline - something like “instead of reading War Games and this entire era... stop reading Robin and Batgirl for a while after Infinite Crisis, *do* read Under the Red Hood and anything by Paul Dini... and just start checking back in piecemeal when Morrison and Chuck Dixon pop back up to ease back into new Robin and Batman’s evolving family, and by the time Fabian Nicieza is on Robin, And Batman RIP is starting up, get ready to bask in quality work for a long time.”

    There’s a reason I called the Batman-RIP-And-Affiliated-storylines era a “Renaissance;” it fits my idea of a “rebirth” of quality Batman Family stories in the Post-Crisis era after an era of considerably more dubious and wasteful decisions where the quality stuff was more sporadic and spread out.

    The fact that my favorite Robin and Batgirls got the short end of the stick for part of the era is playing a major part in my issues with it, I’ll confess.
    I really don't understand why DC thought "Batman needs to be alone" was such a good idea. Or why "make every character the least likeable version of that character at the same times" was a good way of stewarding the love fans had for those characters.

    Batman RIP did lead directly to a period called "Batman Reborn" after all
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    Let's switch gears and do some rankings. I think these are my Top 5 favorite runs of this era.
    Awesome idea!

    1) Batgirl: Stephanie Brown by Bryan Q. Miller, Lee Garbett, Pere Perez, and Dustin Nguyen (with assists on covers by Phil Noto and Artgerm) (including the Road Home issue)

    I think it's no secret that Stephanie Brown is my favorite character, and I love her passing all reason. But this series is why. I loved her in War Games - she's such a great underdog. But this series, where she struggles like the dickens, falls down and gets back up, and finally finds her place - is so powerful to me. Add to that the sheer level of craft the writing and artistry display (and never get noticed in awards or best of - it's seriously such a well crafted comic!), and it's just never going to be beaten in this era.

    2) Birds of Prey #56-108, by Gail Simone, Ed Benes, Joe Bennett, Nicola Scott, etc.

    This was the first major run I read, and the combination of exciting (if very cheesecakey) art and really passionate, detailed writing (martial arts, crime families, and trivia!) are still top of the line. The arc Huntress goes through especially made her my second favorite comics character, right behind another purple heroine.

    3) Batman/Huntress: Cry for Blood by Greg Rucka and Rick Burchett (add in Rucka's runs on New Gotham and Batwoman for fun)

    Rucka's Batman is actually one of my least favorite versions of the character - he's so broken, constantly hurting the people he loves. But he can write a heck of a supporting cast, and Huntress, Renee Montoya, and Kate Kane are simple proof of that. He also really knows how to structure issues with his artist so each book is a little showcase of talent.

    4) Batman: The Black Mirror by Scott Snyder, Jock, and Franco Francavilla

    It kind of looks forward to the next era, since Snyder is so defined by the n52, but this is clearly a love song to Year One and the entire history of Batman and Dick Grayson and Barbara Gordon (and Jim). Plus, the art is simply next level in terms of power and ability to astonish.

    5) Kind of a cheat, but the Year Ones - Batman Year One, Batgirl Year One, Robin Year One, Oracle Year One (this is very important in my rankings, from Batman Chronicles #5), Huntress Year One.

    I love the care and artistry poured into even the lesser Year Ones (like Huntress). As it might become clearer from my list, which doesn't have a lot of the really big runs, I prioritize a stronger ending with my favorites, and Year Ones all have endings baked into them - but endings that are perfectly comics - showing the potential of the character because they're written long after the characters have had their defining adventures, but paving the way for even more defining stories. Plus, the art talent on a Year One is almost always top notch!

    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    Well, he didn't accidentally make Steph a cult favorite — it wasn't like it happened on its own. He clearly had a ton of affection for the character. One of Dixon's great strengths was grounding the characters in believably real world dynamics.
    Notwithstanding my recently found love of Bruce Wayne when written by Tom King (not intended to sidetrack, just personal fan history), I've always been a huge Batfamily fan precisely because of this era. Batman inspires us as readers - and his family are the embodiment of that inspiration. Additionally, they are a sign that he's not just stuck in the past where he lost his family - he's building a new one. Which deeply moves me.

    Dixon actually didn't intend to make Steph a favorite. He just loved her as a character and spent the time required to give readers stuff to become fans of. I still think that for a character with only 25 issues of a solo series, she's got one of the most dedicated fanbases I've ever have the pleasure of being part of.
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  5. #20
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    I think part of the issue with Steph’s death, and with how much it fed into the “Didio hates her” storyline was that, due to scheduling issues, her death almost got immediately overshadowed by the death of Jack Drake in Identity Crisis.

    I mean, wasn’t the “funny” thing about that one-two punch the fact that Steph had *just* been kicked out of the Robin identity in time for Tim to be Robin in Identity Crisis *just* in time to have his dad killed? And then Geoff Johns went and used his Teen Titans run to have Tim shook up and mourning Jack’s death, before the escalation toward Infinite Crisis kind of closed the window for mourning opportunities for Steph’s sake... in part because Tim then lost Conner... and his stepmom... and then Bart...

    Like, in a weird way, you could tell just how strong the character shield was around the Robin Identity, because of how vicious Didio’s shotgun spread of character deaths was around Tim, not to mention the entire city of Bludhaven as well (right around the time Didio was trying to gun down Dick as well and had to get held back by Johns and co.)

    However...

    ...One of the very few gems that emerged from War Games directly, that I think maybe deserves a spin-off conversation in this thread, was the Batgirl/Robin crossover in Bludhaven. Not because the plot was stellar - the main conflict was mostly just relying on a big gotcha with a stuffed Blockbuster - but because of the scenes between Cass and Tim, particularly the scene where they just sit by each other and awkwardly drink coffee before discussing their differences.

    That stuff was always the strength of this era.

    Like...

    Cass and Tim sharing coffee and mutually mourning Steph’s death and discussing how Tim doesn’t want to be Batman and Cass does...

    ... Dick and Tim running along the tops of moving trains while blindfolded, with Tim trying to throw off Dick’s confidence by sprinting Steph’s pregnancy on him...

    ...Steph and Cass teaming up and figuring out that as bad as Steph’s childhood was, Cass’s was worse, and sharing a laugh over how Steph can’t get even that over Cass...

    ...Dick getting patched up by Babs in the Clocktower after regaining control of Blackhate, and their tension spilling over into a make-out session before Petit and Huntress break it up...

    ...Bruce unmasking himself in Gordon’s backyard to try and get back agordon”s trust, but Gordon insists on a serious talk about their issues instead...

    ...Bane popping open a beer and lounging back while trolling Batman with how he totally could fight him now, and Batman reminding him that Luthor is giving Bane Santa Prisca, so why pick a fight?...

    ...Steph becoming Damian’s babysitter and big sister...

    ...Dini figuring out how to write Catwoman and Batman in a way that took Jeph Loeb and others’ approach and making it more refined...

    ...ALL THAT STUFF.

    Seriously, that was the kind of characterization gold that could redeem bad plot conflict.
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

    I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I think part of the issue with Steph’s death, and with how much it fed into the “Didio hates her” storyline was that, due to scheduling issues, her death almost got immediately overshadowed by the death of Jack Drake in Identity Crisis.

    I mean, wasn’t the “funny” thing about that one-two punch the fact that Steph had *just* been kicked out of the Robin identity in time for Tim to be Robin in Identity Crisis *just* in time to have his dad killed? And then Geoff Johns went and used his Teen Titans run to have Tim shook up and mourning Jack’s death, before the escalation toward Infinite Crisis kind of closed the window for mourning opportunities for Steph’s sake... in part because Tim then lost Conner... and his stepmom... and then Bart...

    Like, in a weird way, you could tell just how strong the character shield was around the Robin Identity, because of how vicious Didio’s shotgun spread of character deaths was around Tim, not to mention the entire city of Bludhaven as well (right around the time Didio was trying to gun down Dick as well and had to get held back by Johns and co.)

    However...

    ...One of the very few gems that emerged from War Games directly, that I think maybe deserves a spin-off conversation in this thread, was the Batgirl/Robin crossover in Bludhaven. Not because the plot was stellar - the main conflict was mostly just relying on a big gotcha with a stuffed Blockbuster - but because of the scenes between Cass and Tim, particularly the scene where they just sit by each other and awkwardly drink coffee before discussing their differences.

    That stuff was always the strength of this era.

    Like...

    Cass and Tim sharing coffee and mutually mourning Steph’s death and discussing how Tim doesn’t want to be Batman and Cass does...

    ... Dick and Tim running along the tops of moving trains while blindfolded, with Tim trying to throw off Dick’s confidence by sprinting Steph’s pregnancy on him...

    ...Steph and Cass teaming up and figuring out that as bad as Steph’s childhood was, Cass’s was worse, and sharing a laugh over how Steph can’t get even that over Cass...

    ...Dick getting patched up by Babs in the Clocktower after regaining control of Blackhate, and their tension spilling over into a make-out session before Petit and Huntress break it up...

    ...Bruce unmasking himself in Gordon’s backyard to try and get back agordon”s trust, but Gordon insists on a serious talk about their issues instead...

    ...Bane popping open a beer and lounging back while trolling Batman with how he totally could fight him now, and Batman reminding him that Luthor is giving Bane Santa Prisca, so why pick a fight?...

    ...Steph becoming Damian’s babysitter and big sister...

    ...Dini figuring out how to write Catwoman and Batman in a way that took Jeph Loeb and others’ approach and making it more refined...

    ...ALL THAT STUFF.

    Seriously, that was the kind of characterization gold that could redeem bad plot conflict.
    That whole era around Tim was just horrific. (And Dick, honestly).

    I do like the Fresh Blood crossover (and honestly, I like pieces of War Crimes, too, like Joker being sad that he didn't get to kill Steph, because that cements her place as Robin). But all the mourning of Steph that we did happen to get in the main titles tended to be very "Steph deserved what she got" (this was particularly true of other parts of War Crimes, and anything Andersen Gabrych wrote about the situation). And that really rankled. Plus, I'm really frustrated that because of Evil Cass and Steph's death, we never got a resolution and reconciliation between Steph and Cass after Cass obeyed Batman and rejected Steph as a fellow hero (in Batgirl #38). So the Tim/Cass conversations were really strange for me - because Cass, despite her love for Steph, seemed to agree with Batman that she shouldn't have been a hero. And how much of that was guilt that she died, and how much was failed writing, I don't know. But it does taint that particular aspect a bit more.

    But all those memories you share are really powerful. And it was the team effort of so many writers - Willingham, Gabrych, Dixon, Rucka, Miller, Dini - and many more. There was also a sense that people knew what was going on in other people's titles, and more importantly, cared. These days, despite a lot of good stuff, there's not a real sense that Batman, let alone any of his supporting cast, are coherent across all the books being pushed out.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
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  7. #22
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    Yeah, their was this weird dissonance about Steph after her death that felt so artificial and unearned - it was a “party line” that they were sort of required to espouse no matter how little sense it made compared to the reactions they gave characters like Jason Todd.

    It’s a shame that the reunion we got between Tim, Steph, and Cass all together wound up being in that Convergence storyline; I think FabNic or Miller would clear them all in a crossover together at some point and given us some quiet scenes between them. We were lucky to get Cass and Damian hanging out in Gates of Gotham, at least.
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

    I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Dixon at his prime was basically the greatest workhorse in the Batman line’s history, especially when working under Denny O’Neil - that seemed to be the perfect blend of a strong editorial vision with strong authorial vision. Dixon’s no angel now, and his best work is still arguably all the stuff pre-NML, but he was a solid multi-tasker.

    O’Neil already has a place in the comic hall of fame as a writer, but I honestly think he should maybe be considered the second most prolific editor behind Julie Schwartz. He’s the guy behind a lot of the 90’s era stuff for the Batman books.
    I haven't read any Dixon outside of this Batman era so I don't know the deal with him. But yeah I think in addition to being a workhorse he also had a great handle on the dialogue and dynamics in a way that feels kind of like Whedon at his best.

    You're right about O'Neil as an editor. There's a lot of things to like about the direction of this era. I love how much he loves Leslie Tompkins and it's a shame nobody else has used her as well since him, really.

  9. #24
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    I saw this interview of Dixon and Simone posted in another thread
    https://www.newsarama.com/48700-the-reinvention-of-barbara-gordon.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Newsarama
    After becoming Oracle in 1989, the character popped up as the centerpiece of a new DC title, Birds of Prey, by writer Chuck Dixon and editor Jordan B. Gorfinkel. As Dixon tells Newsarama he was "appalled" at The Killing Joke moment.

    "To take these characters and run them through events that horrific was a violation. And to wrap it up in an ending that self-indulgent and wrong was an insult to the franchise as well as the readers," Dixon told Newsarama. "To do a story like that with legacy characters just for the sake of a single story is lazy and wrong. I mean, if Charlie Brown were to murder Lucy for pulling away the football it is certainly a ‘story’ but it’s a desecration of the characters."
    That's one of the best kiss-off quotes I've ever seen about Alan Moore and the extraordinarily overvalued Killing Joke.

    Lots of interesting stuff from Gorfinkel and Gail Simone too in the piece.

    Dixon was a key part of DC's Batman titles during that time, not just on Birds of Prey. He said that Barbara Gordon's transformation into Oracle "saved" the character.

    "Oracle saved Barbara. The persona was created as a therapy, as a vehicle, for her return to the role of a crimefighter," Dixon explained. "It was a natural progression from librarian to masked vigilante to intelligence provider. She had her optimism ripped away from her without it turning her into a bitter cynic. She turned her tragedy into a positive and made the best, the very best imaginable, of a terrible situation. In a genre loaded with indestructible characters, Barbara’s story is a real inspiration."

    From Gorfinkel's perspective, the seeds of Oracle were sown well before The Killing Joke however. "Oracle didn’t reinvent Barbara Gordon, forgive me. Oracle externalized what was always on the inside," the editor said. "You know how we say that Batman is the real man and Bruce Wayne is the faux persona? With Babs, Batgirl was a costume. Oracle is the real her."
    I love Gorfinkel's counterpoint that Oracle emphasized what was already in Barbara's character rather than reinvented her. Both are right, in their own way.

    One thing I will say that I don't miss about this era is that last bit about "Bruce is a persona." That's an angle I don't miss... it's a shallow well of plastic angst!
    Last edited by gregpersons; 01-24-2020 at 04:59 AM.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Yeah, their was this weird dissonance about Steph after her death that felt so artificial and unearned - it was a “party line” that they were sort of required to espouse no matter how little sense it made compared to the reactions they gave characters like Jason Todd.

    It’s a shame that the reunion we got between Tim, Steph, and Cass all together wound up being in that Convergence storyline; I think FabNic or Miller would clear them all in a crossover together at some point and given us some quiet scenes between them. We were lucky to get Cass and Damian hanging out in Gates of Gotham, at least.
    The real shame, for me, was that it would have been so easy for Steph's journey to continue - they just have to not have her die in Batman 633, and she's levelled up - getting a new chance (basically what her Batgirl run did for her). But no, she has to die, so Bruce can be alone again...because that's what the loudest fans at conventions (loudest among them Didio) say they want. But if they went to the comic shops, they would have heard a different story, I think.

    I'm one of the few who don't hate on Convergence: Batgirl. Sure, it has its flaws, and maybe I'm biased in favor of it because I had such a nice long conversation with Alisa Kwitney about it a few years back at a con, but I think it does have a lot of good along with the weaknesses. The quiet stuff with Cass and Steph as roommates was very nice, and the reunion of Tim and Steph at the end, while not pitch perfect, was better than some of the stuff we got from them post-Steph's return.

    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    I saw this interview of Dixon and Simone posted in another thread
    https://www.newsarama.com/48700-the-...ra-gordon.html

    That's one of the best kiss-off quotes I've ever seen about Alan Moore and the extraordinarily overvalued Killing Joke.

    Lots of interesting stuff from Gorfinkel and Gail Simone too in the piece.

    I love Gorfinkel's counterpoint that Oracle emphasized what was already in Barbara's character rather than reinvented her. Both are right, in their own way.

    One thing I will say that I don't miss about this era is that last bit about "Bruce is a persona." That's an angle I don't miss... it's a shallow well of plastic angst!
    Thanks for the interview! I do tend to agree that the argument that "Bruce is the mask" isn't a very interesting approach to me. I agree that "Bruce the playboy is the mask" - but that's not really Bruce. Bruce, to me, is Bruce with Alfred and the boys, in the cave. Batman is as much a performance as the playboy.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
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  11. #26
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    Hot damn; Bryan Q. Miller's Batgirl run was so amazing; I absolutely loved Steph's interactions with Damian. I would have lost my damn mind if there was a mini with those two written by Miller.

    Nevertheless; here's my ranking:

    1. No Man's Land - this got me into comicbooks

    2. Knightfall - Batman's final battle; 'nuff said

    3. Bat-Family titles - Robin, Nightwing, Batgirl, Birds of Prey; all of them top tier batbooks

    4. Loeb's Batworks - Hush & Batman & Superman brought modernity to both characters

    5. 52 - Morrison, Johns, Rucka, Waid, & Giffen on a weekly title GTFOuttaHere we will never get a weekly series written by titans of the industry again.

  12. #27
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    Definitely agree about Oracle being kind of a “refined” Babs from the horrible crucible of TKJ. Ostrander and everyone else who worked with the character afterwards basically took the character’s maturity and intelligence from being Batgirl and simply emphasized it to make Barbara Gordon arguably a more major figure than she was even as Batgirl. One of the reasons that the TLJ movie failed in its first half, to me, was how much Azzarello and others didn’t key in on Bab’s maturity and instead went with a pretty immature, and kind of sexist, take on the character.

    And I like the point about Bruce in the cave being the real dude, while Bruce the playboy wasn’t. Bruce Wayne: Murderer, and other works, sometimes implied that. Rude wanted to slip into the Batman persona full time, and I think that honestly could ave worked once, but doing it repeatedly would lead to diminished returns.
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

    I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP

  13. #28
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    I was reading Batman Blind Justice and The Many Deaths of the Batman, these 2 stories centers a lot on Wayne's past, his mentors and teachers, what called my attention was that in Blind Justice, his mentors, like Henri Ducard for instance, knew they were training Bruce Wayne, on The Many Deaths of the Batman, his teachers, like Stone and Boch, didn't know he was Bruce Wayne, he used some disguise to cover his identity. I remember in Shaman story, his teacher, a notorious manhunter, knew he was Bruce Wayne.

    I guess we could safely assume on the years prior to becoming the Batman, Wayne was hiding his true identity from some of his mentors, or hiding his identity as Wayne for a period of time, for whatever reason that may be. What do you guys think?

  14. #29
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    Anyone got any “lost gems” they’d like to recommend? Little, forgotten stories that deserve a look or two?

    There’s “Heat” in Legends of the Dark Knight - it’s basically a pretty good of grimy “grindhouse” type of Batman story. A “Catman” with a Freddy Krueger glove starts going Jack the Ripper on a super hot summer, and Batman and Catwoman have to team up while Gordon has to keep a racist mayor from trying to paint the “Catman” as a black guy to stoke racial tensions and gets slugged isn’t he face by Gordon for it.

    It’s grimy, but engrossing.
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

    I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP

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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Anyone got any “lost gems” they’d like to recommend? Little, forgotten stories that deserve a look or two?

    There’s “Heat” in Legends of the Dark Knight - it’s basically a pretty good of grimy “grindhouse” type of Batman story. A “Catman” with a Freddy Krueger glove starts going Jack the Ripper on a super hot summer, and Batman and Catwoman have to team up while Gordon has to keep a racist mayor from trying to paint the “Catman” as a black guy to stoke racial tensions and gets slugged isn’t he face by Gordon for it.

    It’s grimy, but engrossing.
    I've already put it on my Top Five, but Batman Chronicles #5: Oracle Year One is a masterpiece that isn't reprinted anywhere. I'm also a big fan of the final volume of Manhunter that was never reprinted because it was originally published as backups in Streets of Gotham - where Kate Spencer becomes DA of Gotham and fights Harvey Dent, Jane Doe, and a bunch of other villains. A really great little story.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews, Stephanie Brown Discord

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