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  1. #61
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Personally, I love THE LONG HALLOWEEN, warts and all. Yes, it disappoints as a mystery, but it excels as a character study.

    There's something magical about Loeb/Sale collaborations. They have a real knack for exploring stories set within the first few years of a superhero's career. Their Marvel stuff is wonderful too.

  2. #62
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I have it! Also recommended. But sadly, sometimes reading singles for crossovers can be really difficult.
    Using online resources, I've started creating my own lists to keep things in order in one place so I don't have to keep backing out and looking for the next issue.

    Right now I'm actually working on a comprehensive Post-Crisis Superman and Post-Crisis Batman chronology. It's based off lists I've found online so I don't know it everything's entirely accurate. But I'm working on it.

    My lists are currently private but I don't know, if I make it public would you be able to access it?

  3. #63
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    This is the resource I've been using for the Batman chronology.

  4. #64
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Using online resources, I've started creating my own lists to keep things in order in one place so I don't have to keep backing out and looking for the next issue.

    Right now I'm actually working on a comprehensive Post-Crisis Superman and Post-Crisis Batman chronology. It's based off lists I've found online so I don't know it everything's entirely accurate. But I'm working on it.

    My lists are currently private but I don't know, if I make it public would you be able to access it?
    I don't know yet. I know list-sharing was something DCU was working on as a feature, but the guy I used to chat with who worked for DCU left the discord server I was one. I actually know two others who work for DCU, but I haven't asked.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
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  5. #65
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I don't know yet. I know list-sharing was something DCU was working on as a feature, but the guy I used to chat with who worked for DCU left the discord server I was one. I actually know two others who work for DCU, but I haven't asked.
    I see the option to make lists public, but I don't see anywhere other lists are actually available. So maybe it's something they're still working on.

    There are still some features they could improve. You can't shuffle the placement on your lists, for instance. It all shows up in the order you put it on the list. So if you realized you missed an issue you've either got to delete everything after that or just live with the mistake.

  6. #66
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    I see the option to make lists public, but I don't see anywhere other lists are actually available. So maybe it's something they're still working on.

    There are still some features they could improve. You can't shuffle the placement on your lists, for instance. It all shows up in the order you put it on the list. So if you realized you missed an issue you've either got to delete everything after that or just live with the mistake.
    Well, as a test, I just made this list public: https://www.dcuniverse.com/mydc/list...c-645de0b52797

    (also, it's a mess, don't judge me!)

    There is an option, at least on PC, to move things around - use the little four-sided-arrow icon by hovering over the cover of your item in the list on the top right corner - it's limited by what you can see on the screen, so for nice big lists it's a little unwieldy, but it's better than before.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Well, I'd disagree that it's the only comic where the mafia families have weight and history - Batman/Huntress: Cry for Blood also deals in a complex and threatening way with the mafia in Gotham. And to a smaller extent Birds of Prey, the arc where Huntress decided to become a capo.

    I'm really torn about Long Halloween over Killing Joke - because while I loathe The Killing Joke, I think it's undoubtedly much better crafted than Long Halloween. But it's much less destructive.
    I tend to find that I don’t have problems reading The Long Halloween because it’s a story that, while still suffering from a subpar main conflict, you *can* read it for more than one character and still be satisfied or entertained with other characters’ subplots... while with The Killing Joke, you kind of need to care about Joker, or it just ain’t going to work, whether because you like Joker before you read the story or because Moore’s work pulled you in.

    The Long Halloween has a genuinely high quality character arc for Harvey Dent becoming Two-Face, had a decent handle on James Gordon, does a decent job of having Bruce and Selina interact, and creates a pretty good Mafie world for Gotham.

    So even if the Holiday Killer has a pretty lame ending, there’s other stuff to be interested in from multiple angles. Joker’s TKJ story *may* be better in some people’s eyes than any of the TLH character arcs... but it’s kind of a barren wasteland outside of that. Gordon shows toughness by surviving with his sanity intact, and some people can see Batman’s interactions with the Joker as being good for him... but those aren’t just debatable, they’re supporting roles on a different star’s show, while TLH is an ensemble story.

    As to Batman’s characterization in TLH and other Loeb work:
    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    Blasphemy!

    I think there are glaring plot holes; but one this that Loeb did was make Batman SUPER approachable. You can read any of his bat titles and immediately know you are in for a fun ride and I think this is why they are so well regarded.
    I think I’d say that Loeb’s Batman is archetypal to the extreme; it’s not exactly nuanced, it’s moderately dynamic but still returns to the status quo by the end, and often seems two dimensional in emotion (he’s not totally flat, but he’s grumpy and angsty 90% of the time, and moderately sarcastic and hopeful the other 10%.)
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  8. #68
    Incredible Member jb681131's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    This is the resource I've been using for the Batman chronology.
    Nice list - the creator should add a column to indicated what tpb / omni the story is available in.
    It is also missing a few important things like:
    - Catwoman by Ed Brubaker
    - Nightwing
    - Seven Soldiers of Victory. - Very important prequel of Final Crisis.
    - DC: Legends - where Batman gathers the modern age Justice League, right after Crisis On Infinit Earths (which is also missing)
    - Justice League International
    - The Black Casebook by Grant Morrison - prequel to Grant Morrison's run
    - Joker's Asylum I & II

    And to really complete Grant Morrison's storyling should also be read:
    1. Batman Inc New52
    2. Batman & Robin New52
    2. We are Robin
    4. Robin War
    5. Robin, Son of Batman

  9. #69
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Well, as a test, I just made this list public: https://www.dcuniverse.com/mydc/list...c-645de0b52797

    (also, it's a mess, don't judge me!)
    When I click on that it just takes me to my list function.

    There is an option, at least on PC, to move things around - use the little four-sided-arrow icon by hovering over the cover of your item in the list on the top right corner - it's limited by what you can see on the screen, so for nice big lists it's a little unwieldy, but it's better than before.
    That's good to know! Thanks.

  10. #70
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    I’ve got my buddy to agree to doing a podcast on “Year 2” style stories - though ironically, not the *actual* Year Two. I’ve got him to tenataovely agree to doing Prey, Heat, and The Long Halloween... but Im thinking about trying to get him to split it into Prey/Heat in one, and then The Long Halloween and Dark Victory in another.

    Any other really good “Young Batman” pre-Robin tales to suggest?
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  11. #71
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    When I click on that it just takes me to my list function.

    That's good to know! Thanks.
    Yeah, that's what I found out with another buddy who has DCU. Sad. I really think list sharing should be a priority...though I'd take expanding the archives more first.

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I’ve got my buddy to agree to doing a podcast on “Year 2” style stories - though ironically, not the *actual* Year Two. I’ve got him to tenataovely agree to doing Prey, Heat, and The Long Halloween... but Im thinking about trying to get him to split it into Prey/Heat in one, and then The Long Halloween and Dark Victory in another.

    Any other really good “Young Batman” pre-Robin tales to suggest?
    I'm so sad about the Year Two disrespect. I think that story is a really fun one. Nowhere close to Year One, but really good.

    As a Batfamily fan over Batman by himself, I can't say I really like most of them.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews, Stephanie Brown Discord

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I’ve got my buddy to agree to doing a podcast on “Year 2” style stories - though ironically, not the *actual* Year Two. I’ve got him to tenataovely agree to doing Prey, Heat, and The Long Halloween... but Im thinking about trying to get him to split it into Prey/Heat in one, and then The Long Halloween and Dark Victory in another.

    Any other really good “Young Batman” pre-Robin tales to suggest?
    Drop us that link when it's available, I'm into that. Great starting points for "Year Two."

    The link from Miller on reading order is pretty killer. I think all of their suggestions here are perfectly placed.

    Catwoman: Her Sister's Keeper (Mindy Newell)
    Prey / Heat (Moench)
    Gothic (Morrison)
    Batman and the Monster Men / Mad Monk (Wagner)
    The Man Who Laughs (Brubaker)
    Going Sane (DeMattis)
    Venom (O'Neil)
    and then
    The Long Halloween (Loeb)

    That's a pretty damn solid order for Year Two. This list rules.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    Drop us that link when it's available, I'm into that. Great starting points for "Year Two."

    The link from Miller on reading order is pretty killer. I think all of their suggestions here are perfectly placed.

    Catwoman: Her Sister's Keeper (Mindy Newell)
    Prey / Heat (Moench)
    Gothic (Morrison)
    Batman and the Monster Men / Mad Monk (Wagner)
    The Man Who Laughs (Brubaker)
    Going Sane (DeMattis)
    Venom (O'Neil)
    and then
    The Long Halloween (Loeb)

    That's a pretty damn solid order for Year Two. This list rules.
    I've been putting together a modern era reading order based on multiple reading order lists I've found throughout my research in the last 6 months or so. Seeing this list, I have a hard time, chronologically speaking, putting Four of a Kind on a list that contais The Long Halloween, or not placing The Man Who Laughs right after Mad Monk, I'll explain, Four of a Kind, they mention two-face before the appearance of Poison Ivy for example, when in the Long Halloween story she is in it even before Harvey Dent gets his face destroyed by Maroni, seeing that, I've scratched Four of a Kind from my list.

    About the Mad Monk story, it clearly ends right before The Man Who Laughs, Batman mentions a warehouse full of bodies with a smile on their faces, and then that's the beginning of The Man who Laughs.

  14. #74
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jb681131 View Post
    Nice list - the creator should add a column to indicated what tpb / omni the story is available in.
    It is also missing a few important things like:
    - Catwoman by Ed Brubaker
    - Nightwing
    - Seven Soldiers of Victory. - Very important prequel of Final Crisis.
    - DC: Legends - where Batman gathers the modern age Justice League, right after Crisis On Infinit Earths (which is also missing)
    - Justice League International
    - The Black Casebook by Grant Morrison - prequel to Grant Morrison's run
    - Joker's Asylum I & II

    And to really complete Grant Morrison's storyling should also be read:
    1. Batman Inc New52
    2. Batman & Robin New52
    2. We are Robin
    4. Robin War
    5. Robin, Son of Batman
    I haven't gotten that far in the list yet. I know it includes the "Year Two" Catwoman arc and the "Year One" Nightwing arc. I think the intention is to only include Batman appearances, so no issues where he's not involved. JLI seems like a pretty big oversight if it's not included, especially since JLA: Year One is included and Batman isn't as involved there as he is in JLI.

  15. #75
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I’ve got my buddy to agree to doing a podcast on “Year 2” style stories - though ironically, not the *actual* Year Two. I’ve got him to tenataovely agree to doing Prey, Heat, and The Long Halloween... but Im thinking about trying to get him to split it into Prey/Heat in one, and then The Long Halloween and Dark Victory in another.

    Any other really good “Young Batman” pre-Robin tales to suggest?
    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I'm so sad about the Year Two disrespect. I think that story is a really fun one. Nowhere close to Year One, but really good.

    As a Batfamily fan over Batman by himself, I can't say I really like most of them.
    I think even if you hate "Year Two" you've got to discuss it, if for no other reason than its major beats being picked up and improved on by Mask of the Phantasm. (It will be interesting to see if King's Batman/Catwoman series folds elements of MotP into "year two" canon, thus bringing things *ahem* "Full Circle.")

    I enjoy parts of "Year Two" because they're really good and others because they're so bad they're good. It's all over the place in terms of tone and execution. Bruce's conflict over whether his parents would want him to be happy or honor his vow is a great angle (vastly improved on in MotP and King's Batman run). I'm not a fan of Bruce flirting with the idea of using a gun. It follows that bizarre Man of Steel film logic that we need a backstory as to why Batman hates guns or Superman doesn't kill, when those elements are pretty self-explanatory. And Bruce's strategy is horrible to say the least. There's no reason for him to push the GCPD away after having gained Gordon's trust. The way Batman considers killing the Reaper is weird too. Joe Chill, I get, but surely Batman can see the madness involved in becoming a dangerous vigilante who kills to stop a dangerous vigilante who kills?

    At any rate, I do feel it's a fun story, and you've got early Todd McFarlane art! I feel like it's a pseudo-continuity tale. I think DC pretty much treated it that way, too, recalling elements they liked and dropping the more controversial points. At any rate, I'd be very happy if Tom King essentially folded the best elements from this into a Phantasm backstory. The subplot of Bruce agonizing over his vow would fit nicely with his exploration of Batman finding balance with Catwoman. A wonderful way to show his growth since Year Two.

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