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  1. #76
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrestler View Post
    I've been putting together a modern era reading order based on multiple reading order lists I've found throughout my research in the last 6 months or so. Seeing this list, I have a hard time, chronologically speaking, putting Four of a Kind on a list that contais The Long Halloween, or not placing The Man Who Laughs right after Mad Monk, I'll explain, Four of a Kind, they mention two-face before the appearance of Poison Ivy for example, when in the Long Halloween story she is in it even before Harvey Dent gets his face destroyed by Maroni, seeing that, I've scratched Four of a Kind from my list.

    About the Mad Monk story, it clearly ends right before The Man Who Laughs, Batman mentions a warehouse full of bodies with a smile on their faces, and then that's the beginning of The Man who Laughs.
    Ah, thanks for this. I wasn't aware and I haven't read through the entire list yet as I've just been putting mine together based on it.

    Some of the stuff in the list just doesn't fit entirely because of the nature of different writers telling their own 'year one' and 'year two' tales. I think Batman has, like, four or five Halloweens in that first year!

    I'm really impressed with the creator's choices, though. I like how he places pre-Crisis issues that are still relevant post-Crisis (like the Ra's al Ghul stuff).

    Something interesting about Batman's history (at least in my opinion): there's a 'lost era' in between year three and I don't know, year nine or ten? Mostly because the pre-Crisis stuff still kinda sorta happened but the tone of those stories doesn't fit post-Crisis continuity. So you've got that big stretch of stories between Dick Grayson becoming Robin and Nightwing. It's like you jump almost immediately from year three to the Wolfman/Perez Teen Titans stuff and Nightwing: Year One because everyone wants to either write stories about those first three years or the later stuff.
    Last edited by David Walton; 01-28-2020 at 07:07 AM.

  2. #77
    Amazing Member Wrestler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Ah, thanks for this. I wasn't aware and I haven't read through the entire list yet as I've just been putting mine together based on it.

    Some of the stuff in the list just doesn't fit entirely because of the nature of different writers telling their own 'year one' and 'year two' tales. I think Batman has, like, four or five Halloweens in that first year!

    I'm really impressed with the creator's choices, though. I like how he places pre-Crisis issues that are still relevant post-Crisis (like the Ra's al Ghul stuff).

    Something interesting about Batman's history (at least in my opinion): there's a 'lost era' in between year three and I don't know, year nine or ten? Mostly because the pre-Crisis stuff still kinda sorta happened but the tone of those stories doesn't fit post-Crisis continuity. So you've got that big stretch of stories between Dick Grayson becoming Robin and Nightwing. It's like you jump almost immediately from year three to the Wolfman/Perez Teen Titans stuff and Nightwing: Year One because everyone wants to either write stories about those first three years or the later stuff.
    My readind order list so far (as I'm reading A lonely place of dying right now), there are a myrid of different reasons they are place in this order (one thing you should ignore is the rank of Gordon after the Dark Victory, he is already a Commissioner, but some stories after that they call him captain, it's inevitable):

    1) Batman: Year One
    2) Shaman
    3) Monster Men
    4) Mad Monk
    4.1) Prey (Yes, I've said The Man who Laughs comes right after Mad Monk, to get this reading order right Prey happens in the end of the Mad Monk story (but before Batman mentions the warehouse full of corpses), when some time passes and Julie Madison goes and gets established in Africa).
    5) The Man who Laughs
    6) Gothic
    7) Venom
    8) The Long Halloween
    9) The Collected Lengends of the Dark Knight (Blades and Hot House)
    10) Night Cries (Gordon just got promoted to Commissioner)
    11) Dark Victory
    12) The Gauntlet
    13) Robin Year One
    14) Faces
    15) Terror
    16) Batgirl - Year One
    17) The Cat and the Bat
    18) Other Realms
    19) King Tut's Tomb
    20) Tales of the Demon (Like you've said, a pre-crisis story that fits perfectly here in this post-crisis era)
    21) Nightwing - Year One
    22) Batgirl - Special
    23) The Killing Joke
    24) Ten Nights of the Beast
    25) The Cult (One of the best stories I've read of Batman, here he establishes his time as batman as "almost a decade")
    26) Arkham Asylum: A Serious house on serious earth
    27) Death in the Family
    28) Blind Justice
    29) The many deaths of the batman

    Now I'm reading a lonely place of dying and I know Knightfall (prologue) comes right after that.
    Last edited by Wrestler; 01-28-2020 at 08:35 AM.

  3. #78
    Mighty Member jb681131's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrestler View Post
    My readind order list so far (as I'm reading A lonely place of dying right now), there are a myrid of different reasons they are place in this order (one thing you should ignore is the rank of Gordon after the Dark Victory, he is already a Commissioner, but some stories after that they call him captain, it's inevitable):

    1) Batman: Year One
    2) Shaman
    3) Monster Men
    4) Mad Monk
    4.1) Prey (Yes, I've said The Man who Laughs comes right after Mad Monk, to get this reading order right Prey happens in the end of the Mad Monk story (but before Batman mentions the warehouse full of corpses), when some time passes and Julie Madison goes and gets established in Africa).
    5) The Man who Laughs
    6) Gothic
    7) Venom
    8) The Long Halloween
    9) The Collected Lengends of the Dark Knight (Blades and Hot House)
    10) Night Cries (Gordon just got promoted to Commissioner)
    11) Dark Victory
    12) The Gauntlet
    13) Robin Year One
    14) Faces
    15) Terror
    16) Batgirl - Year One
    17) The Cat and the Bat
    18) Other Realms
    19) King Tut's Tomb
    20) Tales of the Demon (Like you've said, a pre-crisis story that fits perfectly here in this post-crisis era)
    21) Nightwing - Year One
    22) Batgirl - Special
    23) The Killing Joke
    24) Ten Nights of the Beast
    25) The Cult (One of the best stories I've read of Batman, here he establishes his time as batman as "almost a decade")
    26) Arkham Asylum: A Serious house on serious earth
    27) Death in the Family
    28) Blind Justice
    29) The many deaths of the batman

    Now I'm reading a lonely place of dying and I know Knightfall (prologue) comes right after that.

    Here is your list with missing stories

    1) Batman: Year One
    2) Shaman
    3) Monster Men
    4) Mad Monk
    4.1) Prey (Yes, I've said The Man who Laughs comes right after Mad Monk, to get this reading order right Prey happens in the end of the Mad Monk story (but before Batman mentions the warehouse full of corpses), when some time passes and Julie Madison goes and gets established in Africa).
    5) The Man who Laughs
    6) Gothic
    7) Venom
    8-prequel) Batman:Haunted Knight
    8) The Long Halloween
    9) The Collected Lengends of the Dark Knight (Blades and Hot House)
    10) Night Cries (Gordon just got promoted to Commissioner)
    11) Dark Victory
    11b)Catwoman: When in Rome
    12) The Gauntlet
    13) Robin Year One
    14) Faces
    15) Terror
    16) Batgirl - Year One
    17) The Cat and the Bat
    18) Other Realms
    19) King Tut's Tomb
    20) Tales of the Demon (Like you've said, a pre-crisis story that fits perfectly here in this post-crisis era)
    21) Nightwing - Year One
    22) Batgirl - Special
    23) The Killing Joke
    24) Ten Nights of the Beast
    25) The Cult (One of the best stories I've read of Batman, here he establishes his time as batman as "almost a decade")
    26) Arkham Asylum: A Serious house on serious earth
    27) Death in the Family
    27b)Alonely place of Dying
    28) Blind Justice
    29) The many deaths of the batman

    If you're gonna read Knightfall - pick up the New Omnibus versions or the New tpb versions from 2018-19

    If you want a more correct list, check this one out: http://www.comicsbackissues.com/comi...reading-order/

  4. #79
    Amazing Member Wrestler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jb681131 View Post
    Here is your list with missing stories

    1) Batman: Year One
    2) Shaman
    3) Monster Men
    4) Mad Monk
    4.1) Prey (Yes, I've said The Man who Laughs comes right after Mad Monk, to get this reading order right Prey happens in the end of the Mad Monk story (but before Batman mentions the warehouse full of corpses), when some time passes and Julie Madison goes and gets established in Africa).
    5) The Man who Laughs
    6) Gothic
    7) Venom
    8-prequel) Batman:Haunted Knight
    8) The Long Halloween
    9) The Collected Lengends of the Dark Knight (Blades and Hot House)
    10) Night Cries (Gordon just got promoted to Commissioner)
    11) Dark Victory
    11b)Catwoman: When in Rome
    12) The Gauntlet
    13) Robin Year One
    14) Faces
    15) Terror
    16) Batgirl - Year One
    17) The Cat and the Bat
    18) Other Realms
    19) King Tut's Tomb
    20) Tales of the Demon (Like you've said, a pre-crisis story that fits perfectly here in this post-crisis era)
    21) Nightwing - Year One
    22) Batgirl - Special
    23) The Killing Joke
    24) Ten Nights of the Beast
    25) The Cult (One of the best stories I've read of Batman, here he establishes his time as batman as "almost a decade")
    26) Arkham Asylum: A Serious house on serious earth
    27) Death in the Family
    27b)Alonely place of Dying
    28) Blind Justice
    29) The many deaths of the batman

    If you're gonna read Knightfall - pick up the New Omnibus versions or the New tpb versions from 2018-19

    If you want a more correct list, check this one out: http://www.comicsbackissues.com/comi...reading-order/
    Thank you for the input, I'll check this New omnibus version when I get in the Knightfall story, I'm almost there and really looking forward to it, after so many positive comments.

    About the Haunted Knight, I've read and enjoy it, but I've decided to scratch it from my list because of the timing. It goes on a period of 3 years (3 different halloweens), it would mess the 10 year period until The Cult (yes, I've thought of some logical timeline that would end up with 9 years and some months when Bruce says he is almost hitting 10 years being Batman on The Cult), unless maybe if you consider it 3 halloweens, but not back-to-back, between the stories. Even if you put it in the list, it should go after The Long Halloween/Dark Victory saga, because they mention Two-face.

    Catwoman When in Rome I deliberately decided to ignore, but I agree with you that its inclusion would make the list more complete.

    A lonely place of dying I'm reading after Blind Justice and The many deaths of the batman, it seems Batman was still alone in these 2 stories, without Tim Drake as his sidekick, but I think either way would be fine.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Ah, thanks for this. I wasn't aware and I haven't read through the entire list yet as I've just been putting mine together based on it.

    Some of the stuff in the list just doesn't fit entirely because of the nature of different writers telling their own 'year one' and 'year two' tales. I think Batman has, like, four or five Halloweens in that first year!

    I'm really impressed with the creator's choices, though. I like how he places pre-Crisis issues that are still relevant post-Crisis (like the Ra's al Ghul stuff).

    Something interesting about Batman's history (at least in my opinion): there's a 'lost era' in between year three and I don't know, year nine or ten? Mostly because the pre-Crisis stuff still kinda sorta happened but the tone of those stories doesn't fit post-Crisis continuity. So you've got that big stretch of stories between Dick Grayson becoming Robin and Nightwing. It's like you jump almost immediately from year three to the Wolfman/Perez Teen Titans stuff and Nightwing: Year One because everyone wants to either write stories about those first three years or the later stuff.
    I think writers were less interested in rewriting the Pre-Crisis Bruce-Dick-Babs era in part because once you get to the period where it’s a three way partnership, or even just the two-way partnership between Dick and Bruce, because it’s harder to figure out what dynamic character growth you can try and out in there.

    When Dick has *just* become Robin, or Babs has *just* become Batgirl, it’s easy to figure out how you add something new to the story, since those characters’ introductions usually weren’t very nuanced or super-heavy into good internal characterization.

    You kind of need a great new conflict, villain, or Batman Family interaction to sell the story. And you really, *really* don’t want a screwy Batman Family interactions - like that one story that tried to set up Babs and Dick’s romance from Robin/Batgirl to Nightwing/Oracle... and wound up having Dick sleep with Babs right after TKJ, then like a week later drop off a wedding invitation for his and Starfire’s nuptials.
    Last edited by godisawesome; 01-28-2020 at 04:29 PM.
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  6. #81
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I think writers were less interested in rewriting the Pre-Crisis Bruce-Dick-Babs era in part because once you get to the period where it’s a three way partnership, or even just the two-way partnership between Dick and Bruce, because it’s harder to figure out what dynamic character growth you can try and out in there.

    When Dick has *just* become Robin, or Babs has *just* become Batgirl, it’s easy to figure out how you add something new to the story, since those characters’ introductions usually weren’t very nuanced or super-heavy into good internal characterization.

    You kind of need a great new conflict, villain, or Batman Family interaction to sell the story. And you really, *really* don’t want a screwy Batman Family interactions - like that one story that tried to set up Babs and Dick’s romance from Robin/Batgirl to Nightwing/Oracle... and wound up having Dick sleep with Babs right after TKJ, then like a week later drop off a wedding invitation for his and Starfire’s nuptials.
    Well, we don't talk about the Nightwing Annual. That's just bad.
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  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Something interesting about Batman's history (at least in my opinion): there's a 'lost era' in between year three and I don't know, year nine or ten? Mostly because the pre-Crisis stuff still kinda sorta happened but the tone of those stories doesn't fit post-Crisis continuity. So you've got that big stretch of stories between Dick Grayson becoming Robin and Nightwing. It's like you jump almost immediately from year three to the Wolfman/Perez Teen Titans stuff and Nightwing: Year One because everyone wants to either write stories about those first three years or the later stuff.
    In my headcanon, I sub in the BTAS episodes and Batman & Robin Adventures comics to fill out the "Golden Years" era. Another headcanon is that Dick always alternated between wearing shorts and long-pants with his Robin costume depending on the weather (borrowing from the suit's continuity cameo in Nightwing Year One) so, especially after Morrison introduced the "everything counts" approach, the '60s Batman / BTAS / and '66 Batman comic and Timmverse comics all kind of slot into this era, even though it's not a perfect 1:1 fit.

    I would love a "Legends Of The Dynamic Duo" title that focuses on this era instead of the "Year One"-verse.
    Last edited by gregpersons; 01-28-2020 at 07:02 PM.

  8. #83
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    I’m not one to argue that Batman: Hush was well written... but since I decided I had to watch the animated adaptation, I feel I have to point out that Loeb’s story worked much better than its adaptation, as lite-weight as it was. Joker being almost killed works better when there’s the history of Joker actually damaging multiple members of both Batman and Gordon’s family, the tease with Jason was a fat red herring but it’s better than just making Tommy Elliot one and then killing off both him and Riddler... and I almost find the comic version of Vatwoman and Batman’s relationship nuanced in comparison to the movie version.

    And would it kill someone at Warner Bros animation to make reading Vengeance of Bane required reading before they write Bane in a movie or cartoon?
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  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post

    I would love a "Legends Of The Dynamic Duo" title that focuses on this era instead of the "Year One"-verse.
    I've long wanted a Legends of the Boy Wonder that covers all the Robins (back and forth to the prerogative of the writers and editors). Get some Y4-7 Dick Grayson, some pre-Morrison Damian, some lost Jason Todd Robin adventures, etc.
    Blue text denotes sarcasm

  10. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrestler View Post
    Thank you for the input, I'll check this New omnibus version when I get in the Knightfall story, I'm almost there and really looking forward to it, after so many positive comments.

    About the Haunted Knight, I've read and enjoy it, but I've decided to scratch it from my list because of the timing. It goes on a period of 3 years (3 different halloweens), it would mess the 10 year period until The Cult (yes, I've thought of some logical timeline that would end up with 9 years and some months when Bruce says he is almost hitting 10 years being Batman on The Cult), unless maybe if you consider it 3 halloweens, but not back-to-back, between the stories. Even if you put it in the list, it should go after The Long Halloween/Dark Victory saga, because they mention Two-face.

    Catwoman When in Rome I deliberately decided to ignore, but I agree with you that its inclusion would make the list more complete.

    A lonely place of dying I'm reading after Blind Justice and The many deaths of the batman, it seems Batman was still alone in these 2 stories, without Tim Drake as his sidekick, but I think either way would be fine.
    DC got stuck on the 10 year timeline for pretty much the entire 1990s. You mentioned the reference in The Cult, which came out in 1988. By the time of No Man’s Land in 1999, they were on Year 11 (Year One being “ten years ago”) per some references in Rucka written issues. Also the 10 part 1999 World’s Finest miniseries was structured to tell the history of Batman and Superman, 1 issue per timeline year. In the 2000s, they expanded the timeline to 12 then 15 years I believe.

    Blind Justice was in Detective 588-600, which came out at the same time as The Many Deaths of Batman in Batman 433-435. Those were 50th anniversary of Batman stores released in the spring of 1989. A Lonely Place of Dying was later in 1989. So you are reading those in the correct order.

    I started reading comics just before Knightfall began, so that was my major introduction. I also endorse the newest collected editions, the 3 omnibuses or the 2018-2019 25th anniversary trade paperbacks. They have done the best job of collecting the story so far. Anything that was published earlier left various stuff out. They still left out Sword of Azrael though, I would recommend reading that before anything Knightfall related.
    Last edited by kevink31593; 01-28-2020 at 08:38 PM.
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  11. #86
    Amazing Member Wrestler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevink31593 View Post
    DC got stuck on the 10 year timeline for pretty much the entire 1990s. You mentioned the reference in The Cult, which came out in 1988. By the time of No Man’s Land in 1999, they were on Year 11 (Year One being “ten years ago”) per some references in Rucka written issues. Also the 10 part 1999 World’s Finest miniseries was structured to tell the history of Batman and Superman, 1 issue per timeline year. In the 2000s, they expanded the timeline to 12 then 15 years I believe.

    Blind Justice was in Detective 588-600, which came out at the same time as The Many Deaths of Batman in Batman 433-435. Those were 50th anniversary of Batman stores released in the spring of 1989. A Lonely Place of Dying was later in 1989. So you are reading those in the correct order.

    I started reading comics just before Knightfall began, so that was my major introduction. I also endorse the newest collected editions, the 3 omnibuses or the 2018-2019 25th anniversary trade paperbacks. They have done the best job of collecting the story so far. Anything that was published earlier left various stuff out. They still left out Sword of Azrael though, I would recommend reading that before anything Knightfall related.
    Thanks, I didn't know about No Man's Land mentioning Bruce being Batman for ten years, it kind of sucks because I had a hard time putting the batman timeline together to hit 10 years at The Cult, I think it's better to ignore that reference I guess.

    About the Knightfall, yes, I'l begin with the four issues of Sword of Azrael, I've found a reading order list of knightfall on comicbookherald website.

  12. #87
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    I'm curious - does anyone want to do some kind of structured exploration of this era? Taking a week or a month to go over each year of the era, not doing a reading or rereading, but just going through what was published, what has lasted, forgotten gems, etc?
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  13. #88
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I think writers were less interested in rewriting the Pre-Crisis Bruce-Dick-Babs era in part because once you get to the period where it’s a three way partnership, or even just the two-way partnership between Dick and Bruce, because it’s harder to figure out what dynamic character growth you can try and out in there.

    When Dick has *just* become Robin, or Babs has *just* become Batgirl, it’s easy to figure out how you add something new to the story, since those characters’ introductions usually weren’t very nuanced or super-heavy into good internal characterization.

    You kind of need a great new conflict, villain, or Batman Family interaction to sell the story. And you really, *really* don’t want a screwy Batman Family interactions - like that one story that tried to set up Babs and Dick’s romance from Robin/Batgirl to Nightwing/Oracle... and wound up having Dick sleep with Babs right after TKJ, then like a week later drop off a wedding invitation for his and Starfire’s nuptials.
    Oh, definitely. There's less room to work with and the danger is in a story that seems like it might be fun but not relevant, since you can't re-invent the rogues during that stretch. But I do think there are some interesting possibilities to work with, and those only grow over time. Imagine covering Robin's first encounter with Kite-Man now, given his tragic backstory.

    And there's also a trick that the writers used a few times in the 90s, of inventing a 'forgotten' villain who only encountered the heroes once or twice in an earlier era and has recently returned. Or spin current events out of a recently revealed past. Be interesting to get a "The War of Jokes and Riddles" style story that covered the Dynamic Duo era.

  14. #89
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    In my headcanon, I sub in the BTAS episodes and Batman & Robin Adventures comics to fill out the "Golden Years" era. Another headcanon is that Dick always alternated between wearing shorts and long-pants with his Robin costume depending on the weather (borrowing from the suit's continuity cameo in Nightwing Year One) so, especially after Morrison introduced the "everything counts" approach, the '60s Batman / BTAS / and '66 Batman comic and Timmverse comics all kind of slot into this era, even though it's not a perfect 1:1 fit.
    Yeah, this works!

    I would love a "Legends Of The Dynamic Duo" title that focuses on this era instead of the "Year One"-verse.
    Quote Originally Posted by bob.schoonover View Post
    I've long wanted a Legends of the Boy Wonder that covers all the Robins (back and forth to the prerogative of the writers and editors). Get some Y4-7 Dick Grayson, some pre-Morrison Damian, some lost Jason Todd Robin adventures, etc.
    I would love both of these!

  15. #90
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I’m not one to argue that Batman: Hush was well written... but since I decided I had to watch the animated adaptation, I feel I have to point out that Loeb’s story worked much better than its adaptation, as lite-weight as it was. Joker being almost killed works better when there’s the history of Joker actually damaging multiple members of both Batman and Gordon’s family, the tease with Jason was a fat red herring but it’s better than just making Tommy Elliot one and then killing off both him and Riddler... and I almost find the comic version of Vatwoman and Batman’s relationship nuanced in comparison to the movie version.
    I think HUSH is pretty good. Not to mention that Loeb doesn't get enough credit for making Bruce and Selina an actual possibility for the first time in forever. Yeah, he was basically just teasing it, but then you got Dini's HEART OF HUSH follow-up and I think it all leads into King's Bat/Cat.

    And would it kill someone at Warner Bros animation to make reading Vengeance of Bane required reading before they write Bane in a movie or cartoon?
    It's funny that we've now hit an era where villain-centered pieces are more viable, even in cinema, yet VoB doesn't get the love it deserves for being an extended villain origin story with a minor cameo by the hero.

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