Post-Crisis, Pre-52 Appreciation 2020

[bob.schoonover]

I think HUSH is pretty good. Not to mention that Loeb doesn't get enough credit for making Bruce and Selina an actual possibility for the first time in forever. Yeah, he was basically just teasing it, but then you got Dini's HEART OF HUSH follow-up and I think it all leads into King's Bat/Cat.

I like Hush. It's not amazing, but there's a lot of stuff going on. It would have been really interesting if it was the starting point for Batman stories post-Fugitive. Selina and Bruce being romantically involved but with trust issues, Riddler as a bigger mastermind (and/or being on the run because he knows who Batman is), more Bruce/Lois interactions (they're always fun bouncing off each other), etc. I mean, yes, I'm describing King's run to an extent, but with those Jim Lee designs and the BIG storytelling.

[millernumber1]

I like Hush. It's not amazing, but there's a lot of stuff going on. It would have been really interesting if it was the starting point for Batman stories post-Fugitive. Selina and Bruce being romantically involved but with trust issues, Riddler as a bigger mastermind (and/or being on the run because he knows who Batman is), more Bruce/Lois interactions (they're always fun bouncing off each other), etc. I mean, yes, I'm describing King's run to an extent, but with those Jim Lee designs and the BIG storytelling.

It has always struck me as odd how Hush seems so disconnected with what came immediately before and after, and how its status quo doesn't seem to have lasted at all.

[bob.schoonover]

It has always struck me as odd how Hush seems so disconnected with what came immediately before and after, and how its status quo doesn't seem to have lasted at all.

No kidding. Azzarello/Winick/War Games/City of Crime is a nutso next three years after Hush. I'm always amazed at how short the time is between "Batman re-establishes a good relationship with the Bat-family" and "let's burn it all down again"

[godisawesome]

It has always struck me as odd how Hush seems so disconnected with what came immediately before and after, and how its status quo doesn't seem to have lasted at all.

Hush the comic was always more of a "superstar creative team" event than a status quo shifting story like DITF, TKJ, NML, Murderer, etc. The main attraction was always going to be "that dude from The Long Halloween" and "Jim freakin' Lee." It's arguably got all the problems that The Long Halloween gets held back by, but I think Loeb's *slightly* more straightforward style this time around concerning the central villain, and willingness to test some big ideas, even if just as red herrings or brief ideas, wound up having a greater impact later.

He meant to "put the toys back in the toy box" afterwards, and many of the villain cameos were just that - cameos, and it's clear that he was going to leave Batman and Catwoman unattached afterwards, didn't really want to resurrect Jason Todd, and left the story in a way where it didn't really need a sequel. In many ways, it's meant to be just another entry in his Long Halloween series.

But his tease of Jason Todd returning presaged Under The Red Hood, and likely led to it being greenlit a few years later. Creating a modern Batman and Catwoman romance helped resurrect and increase interest in the idea, and Brubaker and others would unofficially endorse it; I'd argue that Hush marks the transition between the "Talia is Batman's great love" era under Denny O'Neil to Catwoman's current pre-eminence as the romantic interest.

And DC was serious about trying to make Hush work as a reappearing villain. They just handed him off to the wrong creator right afterwards, and got some of Brian Azzarello's more forgettable work in his next appearance.

Paul Dini arguably made the type of sequel that Hush needed during his TEC and Streets of Gotham run - we had a more solid romance between Bruce and Selina, and Hush was repackaged to be a better villain.

[millernumber1]

No kidding. Azzarello/Winick/War Games/City of Crime is a nutso next three years after Hush. I'm always amazed at how short the time is between "Batman re-establishes a good relationship with the Bat-family" and "let's burn it all down again"

Yeah. And Hush was really popular, so I don't know why DC didn't look at the status quo of the Batfamily being more or less solid, and say "That is attractive to readers." I assume they thought the popularity was only because of the creative team. Sigh.

Hush the comic was always more of a "superstar creative team" event than a status quo shifting story like DITF, TKJ, NML, Murderer, etc. The main attraction was always going to be "that dude from The Long Halloween" and "Jim freakin' Lee." It's arguably got all the problems that The Long Halloween gets held back by, but I think Loeb's *slightly* more straightforward style this time around concerning the central villain, and willingness to test some big ideas, even if just as red herrings or brief ideas, wound up having a greater impact later.

He meant to "put the toys back in the toy box" afterwards, and many of the villain cameos were just that - cameos, and it's clear that he was going to leave Batman and Catwoman unattached afterwards, didn't really want to resurrect Jason Todd, and left the story in a way where it didn't really need a sequel. In many ways, it's meant to be just another entry in his Long Halloween series.

But his tease of Jason Todd returning presaged Under The Red Hood, and likely led to it being greenlit a few years later. Creating a modern Batman and Catwoman romance helped resurrect and increase interest in the idea, and Brubaker and others would unofficially endorse it; I'd argue that Hush marks the transition between the "Talia is Batman's great love" era under Denny O'Neil to Catwoman's current pre-eminence as the romantic interest.

And DC was serious about trying to make Hush work as a reappearing villain. They just handed him off to the wrong creator right afterwards, and got some of Brian Azzarello's more forgettable work in his next appearance.

Paul Dini arguably made the type of sequel that Hush needed during his TEC and Streets of Gotham run - we had a more solid romance between Bruce and Selina, and Hush was repackaged to be a better villain.

That makes sense - just with my own feelings about Loeb as a writer...

Completely agree that Dini's Heart and House of Hush were much stronger, and likely responsible for Hush being still considered a major villain today, as opposed to a one-hit wonder.

The Talia/Selina shipper wars are fascinating, and frustrating, leading to some truly bizarre conspiracy theories. To me, it's really clear that O'Neil shipped Bruce/Talia HARD, but also thought that Batman could never be successfully romantically involved, thus all of his stories scotch the relationship really thoroughly (like one of my very favorites, Detective Comics Annual #1). Much as I prefer Batman to be in a long term relationship, even married, to Selina, I think O'Neil demonstrated incredible wisdom when he said that Batman can't sleep with anyone - because once he does, the writers will go nuts and have him sleep with EVERYONE. And he was darn right. Just look at what happened after NML and O'Neil left - as Rucka observed, he was sleeping with everyone, from Vesper Fairchild to his million love interests in the n52, to the rise of BatCat dominance through Hush/Heart of Hush.

[Wrestler]

Finished reading A lonely place of dying, I enjoyed the story, never thought for a second the joker was manipulating two-face, which was revealed at the end of the story, really liked that. About to start The Last Arkham before going to Knightfall saga.

[millernumber1]

Finished reading A lonely place of dying, I enjoyed the story, never thought for a second the joker was manipulating two-face, which was revealed at the end of the story, really liked that. About to start The Last Arkham before going to Knightfall saga.

Nice work! First time through? What inspired you to try these stories out?

[godisawesome]

Anyone hear remember Action Comics #766? It was Batman’s guest appearance in the Superman storyline where Parasite replaced Lois Lane, and Batman had to track her down?

I really, really like it!

It kind of goes with my favorite portrayal of Batman’s emotional status quo: he maintains a stoic attitude, but he’s actually very emotional, passionate, and often a bit turbulent - with that emotion feeding his dedication and no-nonsense attitude.

[kevink31593]

This is my favorite era of Batman comics. Probably because it’s what I read in my teenage years into my young adulthood. I remember watching the debut episodes of Batman: The Animated Series on first airing when I was 10. That series is what I credit with making me into a Batman fan, but it didn’t take me long to start picking up the comics.

My first issues were Batman #467-469 (as a 3 pack), then #486-487, Shadow of the Bat #10, and Robin III: Cry For Huntress #3 and 6. Then I happened to get Batman #491, the prelude to Knightfall. That hooked me. From then on, I got every new issue, plus back issues and trades. My favorite character/series in the 1990s was Chuck Dixon’s Robin. By the time I was 18, I’d collected almost everything back to 1986. I’ve collected further back than that since then, and I was a regular reader of the new books until I dropped out around 2014. Rebirth got me back though.

I just did a re-read of No Man’s Land last year for its 20th anniversary (!!). Since that storyline was a full year event in 1999, I thought it would be fun to re-read all of the comics over the course of 2019, at the same pace they were originally released. That turned out to be really fun way to re-experience it all.

[millernumber1]

Anyone hear remember Action Comics #766? It was Batman’s guest appearance in the Superman storyline where Parasite replaced Lois Lane, and Batman had to track her down?

I really, really like it!

It kind of goes with my favorite portrayal of Batman’s emotional status quo: he maintains a stoic attitude, but he’s actually very emotional, passionate, and often a bit turbulent - with that emotion feeding his dedication and no-nonsense attitude.

Interesting. I'm really torn on this kind of story (see also: my reaction to Batman/Superman, any version of the title). On the one hand, I like the contrast and relationship you can get out of it. On the other...I think that Batman and Superman shouldn't exist in the same universe, because their worlds shape them too much for those worlds to be the same.

I did have a good time, though I'm curious about why Superman is poisoned, and how he got unpoisoned.

This is my favorite era of Batman comics. Probably because it’s what I read in my teenage years into my young adulthood. I remember watching the debut episodes of Batman: The Animated Series on first airing when I was 10. That series is what I credit with making me into a Batman fan, but it didn’t take me long to start picking up the comics.

My first issues were Batman #467-469 (as a 3 pack), then #486-487, Shadow of the Bat #10, and Robin III: Cry For Huntress #3 and 6. Then I happened to get Batman #491, the prelude to Knightfall. That hooked me. From then on, I got every new issue, plus back issues and trades. My favorite character/series in the 1990s was Chuck Dixon’s Robin. By the time I was 18, I’d collected almost everything back to 1986. I’ve collected further back than that since then, and I was a regular reader of the new books until I dropped out around 2014. Rebirth got me back though.

I just did a re-read of No Man’s Land last year for its 20th anniversary (!!). Since that storyline was a full year event in 1999, I thought it would be fun to re-read all of the comics over the course of 2019, at the same pace they were originally released. That turned out to be really fun way to re-experience it all.

Cool stuff! You got every new issue of every title? Or was it a narrower collection? That's so many comics!

[kevink31593]

Cool stuff! You got every new issue of every title? Or was it a narrower collection? That's so many comics!

In the 90s, after Knightfall started, I never missed an issue of Batman, Detective Comics, Shadow of the Bat, Catwoman, Robin, Azrael, Batman Chronicles, or Nightwing. Got specials, annuals, minis, trades, back issues. I really enjoyed reading all that stuff as it came out brand new. The 90s bat books get a rep for being one crossover after another, and I enjoyed all those. But there was one stretch for 18 months between Legacy and Cataclysm that was really cool, when there were no crossovers, they had a three issue max on story arcs, and every month at least one series had a one shot issue. I wish they would go back to that style today more often.

Due to my budget at the time, I didn’t get Elseworlds stuff, the Adventures books, or non crossover issues of Legends of the Dark Knight. Also, Birds of Prey was somehow off my radar until 2000. I did go back and get most of that stuff later as back issues. In the 2000s I branched into more of the wider DCU in addition to the bat books.

[gregpersons]

In the 90s, after Knightfall started, I never missed an issue of Batman, Detective Comics, Shadow of the Bat, Catwoman, Robin, Azrael, Batman Chronicles, or Nightwing. Got specials, annuals, minis, trades, back issues. I really enjoyed reading all that stuff as it came out brand new. The 90s bat books get a rep for being one crossover after another, and I enjoyed all those. But there was one stretch for 18 months between Legacy and Cataclysm that was really cool, when there were no crossovers, they had a three issue max on story arcs, and every month at least one series had a one shot issue. I wish they would go back to that style today more often.

Due to my budget at the time, I didn’t get Elseworlds stuff, the Adventures books, or non crossover issues of Legends of the Dark Knight. Also, Birds of Prey was somehow off my radar until 2000. I did go back and get most of that stuff later as back issues. In the 2000s I branched into more of the wider DCU in addition to the bat books.

Right there with ya. This stretch was killer.

There's a bunch of great Robin issues — I especially like the "bottle episode" where he's grounded. I think Nightwing 25 falls within that window, "The Boys"... this is a prime period of Nightwing & Robin adventuring together in Detective Comics.

Birds Of Prey was also off my radar for a long time too... only recently with the upcoming film was I finally inspired to read through it. I like Oracle a lot but she was a major presence in all of the Bat books, as was Huntress, and I didn't know anything about Black Canary... I was interested in the miniseries with Catwoman — one of the first minis of it, maybe? — but yeah I tended to miss BOP and most of Azrael but was otherwise collecting all of them at the time.

I didn't pay too much attention to the wider DCU except Green Lantern, JLA, Young Justice, and sometimes Flash.

With the DCU app I was able to finally read the Green Arrow issues of the "Fist of the Monkey" (might be misremembering that title) crossover in Aftershock, and there's the big showdown in the overturned Davenport Tower with Connor Hawke versus Lady Shiva.

...

Thinking about Davenport, one of the main things I think the Bat-verse misses since this era the most is the presence of regular Gothamites as recurring characters. Tim Drake's friends like Ives, Hudson, Ariana, Karl Ranck, and his dad and stepmom really helped with this.

You could include Dick Grayson's supporting cast, but of course that's Bludhaven, not Gotham.... if I could retcon this, I would: Bludhaven should just be a district within Gotham that "belongs independently" to Nightwing, in the way that the East End was Catwoman's "turf." Even with the Seeley take on Bludhaven as more of an Atlantic City, it still seems a little pointless to have this place be Gotham Adjacent. Just make it within Gotham, like Nightwing's version of Hell's Kitchen. Maybe Bludhaven is the same thing as The Narrows.

Batman oversees everything but yeah Gotham is split up a bit. You know, 90s Robin patrolled the Gotham Heights / the 'burbs in the county, with the Shotgun Sheriff... it's cooler to me if Gotham is like a more contained and grounded version of Marvel's New York.

That's sort of how the 90s Bat comics felt... they were distinct enough from the larger DCU most of the time, but internally they connected really well.

[David Walton]

The 1990s DC Universe felt very lived-in, especially in the Super and Bat-family books, since they had so many titles to explore different facets of their world.

They also had a different feel because there wasn't a single creative vision that all others deferred to. Whatever the advantages to the modern approach, there is a much larger disconnect between books now. King's BATMAN and Tynion's TEC could easily have taken place on different worlds.

[David Walton]

Anyone hear remember Action Comics #766? It was Batman’s guest appearance in the Superman storyline where Parasite replaced Lois Lane, and Batman had to track her down?

I really, really like it!

It kind of goes with my favorite portrayal of Batman’s emotional status quo: he maintains a stoic attitude, but he’s actually very emotional, passionate, and often a bit turbulent - with that emotion feeding his dedication and no-nonsense attitude.

I re-read this last night after seeing your post to refresh my memory. You're right, it's a fantastic issue! Kelly's Superman stuff was phenomenal and he really got the dynamic between Clark and Bruce. I love how they come to understand each other's worldview as they search for Lois.

Also, that bar scene is a genuinely surprising and sweet moment. Batman can't get the toughs to talk (well, yet) and Superman comes in barely able to stand, and they give him the help he's asking for.

[Wrestler]

Nice work! First time through? What inspired you to try these stories out?

Yes, it's the first time! Last year I wanted to start reading HQs, I've always liked super-heroes, I was all into MCU and some Marvel series like The Punisher and Daredevil, one DC series too, Smallville, as I finished watching all the seasons with my wife. I grew up hearing my cousin talking about Batman and he is a really addicted one at the bat-family universe, I've decided to give it a try. I didn't want to start reading issues from 1940, 1950 and so on, as I thought it was outdated, but I knew the 80's and 90's had excellent batman stories, so I went searching for a batman reading order of the modern era. I've found it on several places, but two of them really struck me as the correct ones while I was reading the first issues. As I'm going through the stories, I've been getting rid of some of them, including some and I'm coming up with my own reading order, the one I find it more logical chronologically speaking.

It's been a great experience so far, a bit (very) addictive I'd say.