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  1. #1
    Mighty Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    Default What did you think of Sandman as a hero?

    Sandman for a long time has been a Spider-Man villain, as well as a prominent Fantastic Four villain as part of the Frightful Four. However, there was a period where Sandman went legit and became a superhero. It actually lasted nearly 20 years I think, and during this time he actually had a pretty good stint as a member of the Avengers (as one of the many former villains who were redeemed through the team). While it lasted a long time, the status quo eventually reverted itself when the Wizard used his mind control machine to make him bad again. It was stupid, and insulting, to undo all that character development. It also makes me wonder why no one ever tried to save Sandman from an in-universe standpoint, seeing as how others have been saved in the past.

    Overall, it was neat. I sometimes lament that it couldn't stick because I like tangible change in comics when it works.

  2. #2
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    I enjoyed him as a hero it was an interesting twist on his character. They could have gotten a lot more mileage out of his new status quo than they did.

    Sandman being turned back into a villain was even more of a travesty than Otto reverting to Doc Ock. The reason was stupid and his reversal served no interesting storyline purpose as he's been a non-entity ever since.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  3. #3

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    I really thing Sandman was better off as a superhero in my opinion. Yes, his powers expanding were interesting in the BND and Big Time eras, but it would've been cool to see him as a hero with it. I do hope Nick Spencer uses Flint in his run, and be able to reference his stint with the Avengers and Wild Pack. I would think him seeing Silver Sable being alive, he'd at least feel something. And it would be cool to see how he'd react to Wizard's brainwashing, to give the dude a good trashing for taking away something he cared about.

  4. #4
    Y'know. Pav's Avatar
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    He became a hero due to the natural growth of his character.

    He reverted back to villainy without any real care paid to why and how.

    Give me the more three-dimensional characterization any day, for any character.

    -Pav, who dislikes those Byrne issues a lot...
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  5. #5
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    I loved when Paul Jenkins brought that element back in PPSM vol. 2 #22. It really made you feel for Sandman. That element hasn't been explored since then in a major capacity (except for Zdarsky with PPSSM vol. 3 #308-309). So who knows what side Sandman will be on? I just hope that when he comes back, he's a hero or a good guy.
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  6. #6
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    When you do that type of reversion you have to actually give a shit about how the character was while reformed, which Byrne did not. I'd just take a better writer writing a good story about him going back since he's not that interesting as a hero but his kind of absurd powers will always make him an interesting foe to face Spider-Man.

  7. #7
    Mighty Member Uncanny Mutie's Avatar
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    I think Sandman works better as a villain, and I like him better that way............

  8. #8
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncanny Mutie View Post
    I think Sandman works better as a villain, and I like him better that way............
    Agreed. Making him a good guy just took a good BAD guy off the table. Nothing they did with him as a good guy was interesting to me... so there was no gain to it. Just a loss.

  9. #9
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    The idea of a super-villain going straight is an interesting one, but in this case more was lost than gained. As a Spider-Man villain, he was one of the best. As a good guy there wasn't really much of a place for him. He didn't fit into Peter Parker's life and he wasn't popular enough to have his own series. He made sense as part of Silver Sable's Wild Pack, but that series didn't really take off.

  10. #10
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    The idea of a super-villain going straight is an interesting one, but in this case more was lost than gained. As a Spider-Man villain, he was one of the best. As a good guy there wasn't really much of a place for him. He didn't fit into Peter Parker's life and he wasn't popular enough to have his own series. He made sense as part of Silver Sable's Wild Pack, but that series didn't really take off.
    Never seen it work well.

    I've seen them try it with Storm Shadow, Venom, magneto, Dr. Doom, juggernaut, Sabertooth… etc. and all they do is take an awesome villain that USED to be an epic force of nature that had to be overcome... and turn them into an underdog who now gets nerfed to be a part of a team... or need new threats that make the underdog.

    Then they just create a cheap ripoff that's never as cool to take fill that 'villain gap' that they vacated.

    A redemption story sounds like a good idea... but in the grand scheme, it's just bad for the character/franchise.

    Add in the fact that the villains BELONG in jail... and to use them they have to cheat justice somehow. They never actually answer for their crimes.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    Never seen it work well.

    I've seen them try it with Storm Shadow, Venom, magneto, Dr. Doom, juggernaut, Sabertooth… etc. and all they do is take an awesome villain that USED to be an epic force of nature that had to be overcome... and turn them into an underdog who now gets nerfed to be a part of a team... or need new threats that make the underdog.

    Then they just create a cheap ripoff that's never as cool to take fill that 'villain gap' that they vacated.

    A redemption story sounds like a good idea... but in the grand scheme, it's just bad for the character/franchise.

    Add in the fact that the villains BELONG in jail... and to use them they have to cheat justice somehow. They never actually answer for their crimes.
    All those characters are serial murderers. I think a believable villain-turned-hero would have to be one without a body count.

  12. #12
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    All those characters are serial murderers. I think a believable villain-turned-hero would have to be one without a body count.
    Might work... but then you only have crazy mass murderers as villains left. Sometimes it's nice to have a career villain who's just in it for an easy paycheck. But even then, they should be spending 5-10 years in jail and sliding timeline won't let that happen. They'll have to get the charges dropped for some lame reason or other. Batman used to have some mid-threat villians… but now even Riddler and Penguin have a trail of bodies behind them

    Actually the idea of Riddler becoming a private detective and solving crimes instead of causing them appealed to me... but it still let him off the hook too easy, and he went right back to villain.

  13. #13
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    What has Sandman done of note ever since he went back to being a villain? People say he was boring as a hero but as a villain he isn't exactly setting the world ablaze either. And Marvel, much less Spider-Man, doesn't have a lot of villains who went straight and stay that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    Might work... but then you only have crazy mass murderers as villains left.
    Most Spider-Man villains don't fall under this category so that was never an issue with Sandman becoming a hero.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 01-16-2020 at 09:18 PM.

  14. #14
    Mighty Member Uncanny Mutie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    Agreed. Making him a good guy just took a good BAD guy off the table. Nothing they did with him as a good guy was interesting to me... so there was no gain to it. Just a loss.
    Absolutely. And Sandman is one of Spider-Man's BEST and most classic villains, too. I don't want to seem him turned into a hero for an extended period of time again. It's boring, doesn't feel authentic, and is just a waste, IMO.

  15. #15
    Mighty Member Uncanny Mutie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    What has Sandman done of note ever since he went back to being a villain? People say he was boring as a hero but as a villain he isn't exactly setting the world ablaze either.
    A villain doesn't have to be a world-level threat to be exciting or interesting. Just Sandman's power set alone is cool and interesting and makes for GREAT fight scenes, which is why he is one of Spidey's best and most unique villains. Hell, look how fun and awesome the fight scenes were between Spidey and Sandman in Spider-Man 3. Sandman as a character is at his BEST when he is a bad guy, especially when he is fighting Spidey!!!

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