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  1. #1
    Mighty Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    Default What did you think of the Hickman Trilogy?

    Jonathan Hickman is currently writing his X-Men epic, but before all that, he essentially had a Hickman Trilogy with Fantastic Four, Avengers and Secret Wars. Here, looking back, this is where we will discuss that.

    Hickman's "trilogy" started with the Fantastic Four. This was where they finally came up with a reason for Reed Richards is Useless, where he meets alternate versions of himself, and learns that many of them are bad men. He tries to solve everything, forming the Future Foundation, and inducting Spider-Man into the Four after Johnny's "death", and building up the seeds that would carry over to Avengers and Secret Wars.

    One of the things that stood out is that Hickman started in Fantastic Four, and essentially carried that story through the rest. His run on Avengers was unique among other Avengers' writers, considering that it was the least typical story for the Avengers and more of a stealth continuation of his Fantastic Four run. He did things different from other writers. Rather than making IM, Cap and Thor the usual Avengers Trinity that everything else revolved around, they were essentially side characters in this story. He promoted characters that are usually not tied to the Avengers side in prominent roles, such as Starbrand (cosmic), Sunspot (X-Men), Shang-Chi (Heroes for Hire), among many other characters outside the Avengers but still prominent.

    Many outside elements were involved, such as those carrying over from Fantastic Four, with Doctor Doom being the overall villain, and the conflict between Black Panther and Namor with their respective nations also being important. The story freely used things like alternate history, cosmic, political intrigue, espionage, and epic scale battles, and more, at any moment. About midway through, it actually stops pretending to be an Avengers run and focuses on Reed Richards, leading up to Secret Wars.

    Secret Wars was fun, but also very hard to follow, and I think it didn't help that it was after Marvel did a bunch of other events making the impact less special. I also wish it had more impact than it did on the universe afterwards. I think the only tangible changes were Miles Morales, his supporting cast, and The Maker, transplanting to the main universe. That said, it was a great time, seeing Marvel go all out with the story and universe, and some great new stories were made out of it. That said, heaven help anyone who thinks they can just jump in on Marvel by reading this story.

    Overall, it was really good. I also think it helps he came in from an outside perspective, ie a fresh set of eyes. By his own admission, Hickman was mainly a fan of Marvel's X-Men, and was more of a DC guy if anything. He actually had only superficial knowledge of the Fantastic Four and the Avengers when he was assigned to them. This sounds like it would be bad, and in many cases it would be, but I think it helped him approach the properties from different angles than someone who's nostalgic for the old normally would.

    I was actually thinking about going back and reading all of it for fun later.

    What did you guys think?

  2. #2
    Genesis of A Nemesis KOSLOX's Avatar
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    Trilogy?

    1. Secret Warriors/SHIELD
    2. Ultimates/Ultimate Hawkeye
    3. Fantastic Four/FF
    4. Avengers/New Avengers

    There was a throughline in all of them.
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  3. #3
    Mighty Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    Right, but that's the easiest way to refer to it by the three big points.

    Anyways, opinions on it?

  4. #4
    Genesis of A Nemesis KOSLOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
    Right, but that's the easiest way to refer to it by the three big points.

    Anyways, opinions on it?
    I've enjoyed all of Hickman's Marvel work and I think it's pretty telling that by centering the MU around his stories they've gotten IMO a better and more cohesive universe in general. It seems like the other writer's either enjoy or function a lot better playing in the sandboxes he's constructed.

    The only other recent writer that managed to do the same thing was Bendis, specifically in the Post Civil War to Dark Reign era.
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  5. #5
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    Reading it in the trade, it was all great fun, big ideas, and if you stick around careful understated humor.

    I think of the lot, NEW AVENGERS was the most consistent title on an issue-by-issue basis where Hickman really brought together his thematic interests and inclinations. The opening issue of Hickman's New Avengers set in Wakanda is one of my favorites, and the dialogue there is so good that Hickman kept recycling it, often to ridiculous levels ("Everything dies").


    What I like best and remember most of this run:
    -- Hickman's Reed Richards is frankly the best version of that character, and indeed it was the first time reading the Fantastic Four I actually cared more for the Richards (Reed, Sue, Franklin, Valeria) than Johnny Storm and Ben Grimm. Which is not to say that Johnny and Ben didn't get great moments because they did, especially with "Three". Hickman's Reed and especially his obsession with wanting to "Solve Everything" ties together and explains everything about him going back to his rivalry with Doom, the flight with the rocket, his adventures, g this marriage, the Council of Reeds.
    -- Valeria Richards was a total delight and my favorite Richards, her entire bond with Doom and Reed was quite moving.
    -- Hickman's Namor and T'Challa danceoff is my (second) favorite comic rivalry (#1 is Doom and Reed) the way the two of them can't stand each other and T'Challa's repeated "I can't even with this guy" has this incredible depth and seriousness, as well as hilarious pettiness. Also moving moments like when they share a drink.
    -- The Avengers issues with Steve Rogers and him being teleported several futures to repeatedly challenge his idealism and his defense of it is great, you can sense that Hickman is both admiring and critical at the same time.
    -- That bit in Fantastic Four where after toppling Annihilus in the Negative Zone the Fantastic Four allow the N-Zone people to hold an election and they vote in Annihilus in a landslide.
    -- Time Runs Out on the whole.
    -- Namor whining about the Black Order to Doom over dinner at Latveria.
    -- The particular sense of growing hopeless despair which is somehow entertaining and captivating even if it shouldn't be.
    -- For reconstructing and confirming the mammoth importance of Jim Shooter's creations and his writing on SW'84.
    -- The Maker, who Hickman introduced in his Ultimates relaunched and who he successfully introduced as a 616 villain here. That scene between the Maker and 616 Reed in SW'2015 is great.
    -- Doom, "A throne was my birthright, I have now set myself higher than that". Like a Boss (or Like a God).
    -- The Doom-Reed fight at the end and the finale where Doom's face repairs and he finally has a moment of peace and smiles for legit. "Everything lives".

    I mean if you were to tell me that Hickman's entire trilogy would end with an unambiguously happy ending, and a reconstruction of the MU after the deconstruction he put everything through all without walking back any of his moves...I wouldn't have believed it.

    My one negative caveat is that on the whole Hickman's run felt very run-on and TPB-made. Like I can't remember off-hand many individual issues that stand out. I remember moments and scenes but not issues. It's also not very standalone yet it's so detailed, intricate and moving, that you kind of want to dig deep and read more. Like that's one area his X-Men is better at. HoX/PoX for instance works as a standalone story. And it has great single issues, especially HoX#2 (aka "The uncanny life of Moira X"). And his run on X-Men is very standalone focused, so he's developing.

    But yeah, Bendis was the writer of the 2000s, Hickman was the writer of the 2010s.

  6. #6
    Genesis of A Nemesis KOSLOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Reading it in the trade, it was all great fun, big ideas, and if you stick around careful understated humor.

    I think of the lot, NEW AVENGERS was the most consistent title on an issue-by-issue basis where Hickman really brought together his thematic interests and inclinations. The opening issue of Hickman's New Avengers set in Wakanda is one of my favorites, and the dialogue there is so good that Hickman kept recycling it, often to ridiculous levels ("Everything dies").


    What I like best and remember most of this run:
    -- Hickman's Reed Richards is frankly the best version of that character, and indeed it was the first time reading the Fantastic Four I actually cared more for the Richards (Reed, Sue, Franklin, Valeria) than Johnny Storm and Ben Grimm. Which is not to say that Johnny and Ben didn't get great moments because they did, especially with "Three". Hickman's Reed and especially his obsession with wanting to "Solve Everything" ties together and explains everything about him going back to his rivalry with Doom, the flight with the rocket, his adventures, g this marriage, the Council of Reeds.
    -- Valeria Richards was a total delight and my favorite Richards, her entire bond with Doom and Reed was quite moving.
    -- Hickman's Namor and T'Challa danceoff is my (second) favorite comic rivalry (#1 is Doom and Reed) the way the two of them can't stand each other and T'Challa's repeated "I can't even with this guy" has this incredible depth and seriousness, as well as hilarious pettiness. Also moving moments like when they share a drink.
    -- The Avengers issues with Steve Rogers and him being teleported several futures to repeatedly challenge his idealism and his defense of it is great, you can sense that Hickman is both admiring and critical at the same time.
    -- That bit in Fantastic Four where after toppling Annihilus in the Negative Zone the Fantastic Four allow the N-Zone people to hold an election and they vote in Annihilus in a landslide.
    -- Time Runs Out on the whole.
    -- Namor whining about the Black Order to Doom over dinner at Latveria.
    -- The particular sense of growing hopeless despair which is somehow entertaining and captivating even if it shouldn't be.
    -- For reconstructing and confirming the mammoth importance of Jim Shooter's creations and his writing on SW'84.
    -- The Maker, who Hickman introduced in his Ultimates relaunched and who he successfully introduced as a 616 villain here. That scene between the Maker and 616 Reed in SW'2015 is great.
    -- Doom, "A throne was my birthright, I have now set myself higher than that". Like a Boss (or Like a God).
    -- The Doom-Reed fight at the end and the finale where Doom's face repairs and he finally has a moment of peace and smiles for legit. "Everything lives".

    I mean if you were to tell me that Hickman's entire trilogy would end with an unambiguously happy ending, and a reconstruction of the MU after the deconstruction he put everything through all without walking back any of his moves...I wouldn't have believed it.

    My one negative caveat is that on the whole Hickman's run felt very run-on and TPB-made. Like I can't remember off-hand many individual issues that stand out. I remember moments and scenes but not issues. It's also not very standalone yet it's so detailed, intricate and moving, that you kind of want to dig deep and read more. Like that's one area his X-Men is better at. HoX/PoX for instance works as a standalone story. And it has great single issues, especially HoX#2 (aka "The uncanny life of Moira X"). And his run on X-Men is very standalone focused, so he's developing.

    But yeah, Bendis was the writer of the 2000s, Hickman was the writer of the 2010s.
    I really wanted Marvel to do a Mini-Marvels version of Spy-Vs-Spy style backups with BP and Namor during the whole Hickman NA era.
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    DC Comics: The Last God
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  7. #7
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Reading it in the trade, it was all great fun, big ideas, and if you stick around careful understated humor.

    I think of the lot, NEW AVENGERS was the most consistent title on an issue-by-issue basis where Hickman really brought together his thematic interests and inclinations. The opening issue of Hickman's New Avengers set in Wakanda is one of my favorites, and the dialogue there is so good that Hickman kept recycling it, often to ridiculous levels ("Everything dies").


    What I like best and remember most of this run:
    -- Hickman's Reed Richards is frankly the best version of that character, and indeed it was the first time reading the Fantastic Four I actually cared more for the Richards (Reed, Sue, Franklin, Valeria) than Johnny Storm and Ben Grimm. Which is not to say that Johnny and Ben didn't get great moments because they did, especially with "Three". Hickman's Reed and especially his obsession with wanting to "Solve Everything" ties together and explains everything about him going back to his rivalry with Doom, the flight with the rocket, his adventures, g this marriage, the Council of Reeds.
    -- Valeria Richards was a total delight and my favorite Richards, her entire bond with Doom and Reed was quite moving.
    -- Hickman's Namor and T'Challa danceoff is my (second) favorite comic rivalry (#1 is Doom and Reed) the way the two of them can't stand each other and T'Challa's repeated "I can't even with this guy" has this incredible depth and seriousness, as well as hilarious pettiness. Also moving moments like when they share a drink.
    -- The Avengers issues with Steve Rogers and him being teleported several futures to repeatedly challenge his idealism and his defense of it is great, you can sense that Hickman is both admiring and critical at the same time.
    -- That bit in Fantastic Four where after toppling Annihilus in the Negative Zone the Fantastic Four allow the N-Zone people to hold an election and they vote in Annihilus in a landslide.
    -- Time Runs Out on the whole.
    -- Namor whining about the Black Order to Doom over dinner at Latveria.
    -- The particular sense of growing hopeless despair which is somehow entertaining and captivating even if it shouldn't be.
    -- For reconstructing and confirming the mammoth importance of Jim Shooter's creations and his writing on SW'84.
    -- The Maker, who Hickman introduced in his Ultimates relaunched and who he successfully introduced as a 616 villain here. That scene between the Maker and 616 Reed in SW'2015 is great.
    -- Doom, "A throne was my birthright, I have now set myself higher than that". Like a Boss (or Like a God).
    -- The Doom-Reed fight at the end and the finale where Doom's face repairs and he finally has a moment of peace and smiles for legit. "Everything lives".

    I mean if you were to tell me that Hickman's entire trilogy would end with an unambiguously happy ending, and a reconstruction of the MU after the deconstruction he put everything through all without walking back any of his moves...I wouldn't have believed it.

    My one negative caveat is that on the whole Hickman's run felt very run-on and TPB-made. Like I can't remember off-hand many individual issues that stand out. I remember moments and scenes but not issues. It's also not very standalone yet it's so detailed, intricate and moving, that you kind of want to dig deep and read more. Like that's one area his X-Men is better at. HoX/PoX for instance works as a standalone story. And it has great single issues, especially HoX#2 (aka "The uncanny life of Moira X"). And his run on X-Men is very standalone focused, so he's developing.

    But yeah, Bendis was the writer of the 2000s, Hickman was the writer of the 2010s.
    I just noticed that there was another thread about this same topic. Looks like we are in agreement on quite a lot but you have given a far more detailed assessment. I think it's almost a cliche at this point to say that this was really Hickman's love letter to his new found appreciation of the Fantastic Four. He had always said he read more of the X-Men and had to go buy one of those Gitcorp DVDs that have over 500 issues of the FF. I have one of those two but it was the earlier one that doesn't include the Silver Surfer series as a bonus. But most of all, he gave Doom a great ending and gratefully Bendis did follow up on it with Infamous Iron Man. We won't mention Slott on that point.

  8. #8
    Benefactor / Malefactor H-E-D's Avatar
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    Secret Wars is highly overrated and didn't fit at all as a capstone to his Avengers work in any substantive way.

    Great art, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by KOSLOX View Post
    Trilogy?

    1. Secret Warriors/SHIELD
    2. Ultimates/Ultimate Hawkeye
    3. Fantastic Four/FF
    4. Avengers/New Avengers

    There was a throughline in all of them.
    Makes more sense. Secret Warriors seems oft forgotten but it's a big thing.

  9. #9
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    I've said before that I liked his Fantastic Four and didn't like his Avengers, which seemed to be written from a place of contempt for or at least indifference to the Avengers (Bendis, I think, treated the Avengers as a team with its own history and lore; Hickman didn't).

    One thing I'll add is that Hickman's writing style is built so heavily on slow-burn, long-form storytelling that I find it hard to enjoy a lot of his work in the short-term, because he's always teasing big things that are about to happen, which makes what's currently happening seem almost insignificant. It didn't surprise me at all when I listened to him on a podcast and he mentioned how he dislikes episodic television (i.e. television where each episode tells its own story), because I definitely get that from his work. With his Avengers I almost felt like it was asking me to accept being bored in the short term for the promise of a long term payoff to come.

    Again, this is a bigger issue with his Avengers/New Avengers than the FF and X-Men stuff.

  10. #10
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    Secret Wars is highly overrated and didn't fit at all as a capstone to his Avengers work in any substantive way.

    Great art, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by KOSLOX View Post
    Trilogy?

    1. Secret Warriors/SHIELD
    2. Ultimates/Ultimate Hawkeye
    3. Fantastic Four/FF
    4. Avengers/New Avengers

    There was a throughline in all of them.
    Makes more sense. Secret Warriors seems oft forgotten but it's a big thing.
    Even more so when it seems like Marvel may have yanked the rug out from under Hickman on that title.

  11. #11
    Extraordinary Member Mike_Murdock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KOSLOX View Post
    Trilogy?

    1. Secret Warriors/SHIELD
    2. Ultimates/Ultimate Hawkeye
    3. Fantastic Four/FF
    4. Avengers/New Avengers

    There was a throughline in all of them.
    I was aware of his contributions to the Ultimate Fantastic Four, but what happened with Ultimate Hawkeye?
    Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother

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  12. #12
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Murdock View Post
    I was aware of his contributions to the Ultimate Fantastic Four, but what happened with Ultimate Hawkeye?
    It was a side story that connected with his Ultimates where, if I am remembering correctly, Hawkeye infiltrated China to figure out what was going on with twins Xorn and Zorn

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