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  1. #16
    Extraordinary Member Malvolio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeekSmark View Post
    If they are going to give in to this then they might aswell cancel the show. Like it has been said before basically every character in the show is a stereotype of some sort. The show was always a satire and comedy as art is subjective, if you dont like it dont watch it.
    And for the love of god DONT let the guy that started this voice the character now.
    I'm a Mexican living in the US, my skin color is pretty light but I've got black hair, brown eyes and a thick accent when speaking English, I have experienced some discrimination, and yet I still dont understand modern sensitivities to be offended at everything and demanding forced representation on media. I can understand that the Bumbblebee man is NOT a serious representation of Mexicans.
    You understand that. The problem is white people whose only interaction with Mexicans is what they see on television. Some of them might interpret the stereotypes they see as a fair representation of reality.

  2. #17
    Mighty Member CellarDweller's Avatar
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    I think one of the issues is that everyone has a different opinion of what is offensive.

    I'm Italian, and gay. I find portrayals of gay people in cartoons very funny. Mr. Garrison and Mr. Slave ("Jesus Chriiist"), and the numerous gay jokes on Family Guy have always made me laugh. The same can be said for images of Italian guys with chest hair and sleeveless t-shirts, all in the mafia, saying "Hey-a howa you doin'?"

    I understand, however, that others can be very offended by these depictions.

    So what is the solution?

    One can always not watch the shows, but I'm sure that a lot of people wouldn't find that to be a solution, as the depictions are still out there, being laughed at.

  3. #18
    Extraordinary Member Cyke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SUPERECWFAN1 View Post
    The outrage grew from his portrayal as years passed. A documentary seemed to really add fuel to the fire of the character being done on Simpsons.
    To Azaria's credit, even though the character was his bread and butter, he was pretty open to meeting with the comedian who made the documentary, Hari Kondabalu, meeting several times to talk about the issue. Likewise Kondabalu would come out of those talks complimenting Azaria as one of his comic heroes and a stand up guy who would really listen intently.

    It's important to note that whatever online outrage on either side of that is, ultimately it's still a talk between two guys. And a continued exchange doesn't happen if it's just one side yelling at another. This was years in the making in part because what's at stake for Azaria isn't just (part of) a job, but a job that he loves and one that put him on the map. Azarianhad everything to gain by keeping Apu alive. The producers certainly have their incentive to do so. Yet he was willing to have a talk with a fan about how that character affected him and others like him.

    Azaria could have easily defended the work -- he's certainly a top voice talent -- but he talked with an Indian man about an Indian portrayal. At the end of the day, it's about who you center in what you fight for, and Azaria paid attention to someone who was at that center, not speaking on his behalf. At the end of the day, the only ones who can talk about what is or isn't offensive are the people who are affected by that portrayal, positive or negative, and Azaria recognized that. After all, men can't/shouldn't tell women what's sexist against women, and tourists shouldn't tell foreign countries how to act.

    Likewise, online beefs would have us think this is something petty or overly PC with the two of them too quick to anger, but from all indications even if the talks they had were probably difficult, it doesn't seem like it was dramatic, but rather a series of conversations between two adults that mean well. Neither of their goals come from a vacuum.
    Last edited by Cyke; 01-20-2020 at 01:42 AM.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malvolio View Post
    You understand that. The problem is white people whose only interaction with Mexicans is what they see on television. Some of them might interpret the stereotypes they see as a fair representation of reality.
    One of the points the Apu-documentary made was that, back in the day, Apu was the pretty much the only representation of Indian people in popular culture. There was no one like Kal Penn, Mindy Kaling or Aziz Ansari on television. It was just Apu. And that made it that much worse from the point of view of both Hari Kondabalu and probably a lot of Indian-Americans who grew up hearing "thank you, come again" ad nauseam.

  5. #20
    Death becomes you Osiris-Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by basbash99 View Post
    tbh the show should've ended years ago, anything with "cutting edge" comedy is bound to have content that will be considered offensive 30 years later. And let's face it, the show is a pale shadow of its former self at this point, having been supplanted by any number of other animated shows (many of which have come and gone will Simpsons keeps chugging out bland episodes)

    Kind of a shame as Apu was one of my favorite Simpsons characters, though... i hope they retire the character entirely rather than replace Azaria on voice.

    On the plus side, this probably means Hari Kondabolu's 15 minutes of fame are up.
    I don't think networks base their decisions on the nostalgia of long time viewers who somehow think the old episodes are funnier and more clever than the new ones. They base it on the ratings compared to other shows on their
    network. And The Simpsons is still one of their top shows. So whether some people like it or not, Fox will keep renewing The Simpsons as long as it has an audience. I guess enough people are entertained by the show for this
    to be so, no matter how much better it was perceived to be in the good old days.

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member jetengine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris-Rex View Post
    I don't think networks base their decisions on the nostalgia of long time viewers who somehow think the old episodes are funnier and more clever than the new ones. They base it on the ratings compared to other shows on their
    network. And The Simpsons is still one of their top shows. So whether some people like it or not, Fox will keep renewing The Simpsons as long as it has an audience. I guess enough people are entertained by the show for this
    to be so, no matter how much better it was perceived to be in the good old days.
    Thats not a good thing considering Family guy is utter trash yet gets renewed endlessly

  7. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa Moai View Post
    One of the points the Apu-documentary made was that, back in the day, Apu was the pretty much the only representation of Indian people in popular culture. There was no one like Kal Penn, Mindy Kaling or Aziz Ansari on television. It was just Apu. And that made it that much worse from the point of view of both Hari Kondabalu and probably a lot of Indian-Americans who grew up hearing "thank you, come again" ad nauseam.
    my co-worker still does that impression. i cringe every time. but he's a baby boomer. so :shrugs:
    "I just don't get why you wouldn't want to break the law anymore" --Scorpia

  8. #23
    All-New Member ISleepNow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malvolio View Post
    You understand that. The problem is white people whose only interaction with Mexicans is what they see on television. Some of them might interpret the stereotypes they see as a fair representation of reality.
    That doesn't mean anyone has to target a show based upon the lowest common denominator of the audience. That doesn't improve quality at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyke View Post
    To Azaria's credit, even though the character was his bread and butter, he was pretty open to meeting with the comedian who made the documentary, Hari Kondabalu, meeting several times to talk about the issue. Likewise Kondabalu would come out of those talks complimenting Azaria as one of his comic heroes and a stand up guy who would really listen intently.

    It's important to note that whatever online outrage on either side of that is, ultimately it's still a talk between two guys. And a continued exchange doesn't happen if it's just one side yelling at another. This was years in the making in part because what's at stake for Azaria isn't just (part of) a job, but a job that he loves and one that put him on the map. Azarianhad everything to gain by keeping Apu alive. The producers certainly have their incentive to do so. Yet he was willing to have a talk with a fan about how that character affected him and others like him.

    Azaria could have easily defended the work -- he's certainly a top voice talent -- but he talked with an Indian man about an Indian portrayal. At the end of the day, it's about who you center in what you fight for, and Azaria paid attention to someone who was at that center, not speaking on his behalf. At the end of the day, the only ones who can talk about what is or isn't offensive are the people who are affected by that portrayal, positive or negative, and Azaria recognized that. After all, men can't/shouldn't tell women what's sexist against women, and tourists shouldn't tell foreign countries how to act.

    Likewise, online beefs would have us think this is something petty or overly PC with the two of them too quick to anger, but from all indications even if the talks they had were probably difficult, it doesn't seem like it was dramatic, but rather a series of conversations between two adults that mean well. Neither of their goals come from a vacuum.
    How does one person simply listening to and going with the points brought up constitute a dialogue between two people? Dialogues go both ways. There was no exchange from Azaria's side because he chose not to defend himself or simply couldn't think of a counter argument. Simply giving in to someone else's idea is not how dialogue works.

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa Moai View Post
    One of the points the Apu-documentary made was that, back in the day, Apu was the pretty much the only representation of Indian people in popular culture. There was no one like Kal Penn, Mindy Kaling or Aziz Ansari on television. It was just Apu. And that made it that much worse from the point of view of both Hari Kondabalu and probably a lot of Indian-Americans who grew up hearing "thank you, come again" ad nauseam.
    Here's a counter solution: why couldn't Apu take diction lessons and get a better job if that was his problem as far as his 'representative profile' was concerned rather than getting bounced entirely from the show? If they were reealy honest which is what All good humor is based on they could've made a very funny episode based on this controversy.

    @Cyke There, That is what Dialogue is. See the difference?

  9. #24
    Astonishing Member jetengine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ISleepNow View Post
    That doesn't mean anyone has to target a show based upon the lowest common denominator of the audience. That doesn't improve quality at all.



    How does one person simply listening to and going with the points brought up constitute a dialogue between two people? Dialogues go both ways. There was no exchange from Azaria's side because he chose not to defend himself or simply couldn't think of a counter argument. Simply giving in to someone else's idea is not how dialogue works.



    Here's a counter solution: why couldn't Apu take diction lessons and get a better job if that was his problem as far as his 'representative profile' was concerned rather than getting bounced entirely from the show? If they were reealy honest which is what All good humor is based on they could've made a very funny episode based on this controversy.

    @Cyke There, That is what Dialogue is. See the difference?
    Because Fox were lazy and Apu is a stereotype, thats why they never tried. The show ceased evolving years ago. At one point they even make a joke about the status quo thats so on the nose it hurt.

  10. #25

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    I thought Azaria voices multiple characters? And he’s been booted completely just because of Apu?

    It’s always funny that when discussing people belonging to a minority being offended by something, we put emphasis on listening to them because they have a different perspective, but at the same time, the people that belong to the same minority that aren’t offended are ignored.

  11. #26
    Fantastic Member basbash99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunch of Coconuts View Post
    I thought Azaria voices multiple characters? And heís been booted completely just because of Apu?

    Itís always funny that when discussing people belonging to a minority being offended by something, we put emphasis on listening to them because they have a different perspective, but at the same time, the people that belong to the same minority that arenít offended are ignored.
    He's not being booted completely, he's just no longer doing the voice for Apu. And we're not sure what is happening with Apu himself yet, altho my guess is they will just quietly retire the character or confine him to background shots where he doesn't say anything. So in the end there will be less "representation", which is victory i guess?

    As far as your other point, there are a lot of people who have come forward as pro-Apu but feels like most people either gave up on the simpsons years ago or only tune in intermittently. iow the passion is mostly on the side of the intolerant portion of the left while most people just shrug. Now if disney decided to edit out Apu from the classic episodes that are streaming, you probably would see a bigger uproar.... but even then i'm guessing most simpsons fans have the classic 1st 10 seasons or so on dvd already.

  12. #27
    Mighty Member chamber-music's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganAlpha30X33 View Post
    I always thought that the version of Apu on the show was so over the top and so much of a stereotype that it was supposed to make us laugh at the stereotype of Indian people, as Apu has branched out over the years...
    A lot of the characters on the Simpsons are ridiculous stereotypes that people could find offensive if they were inclined.

    Characters like the Italian Chef or the poor redneck Cletus family could be offensive to some people I guess.
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa Moai View Post
    One of the points the Apu-documentary made was that, back in the day, Apu was the pretty much the only representation of Indian people in popular culture. There was no one like Kal Penn, Mindy Kaling or Aziz Ansari on television. It was just Apu. And that made it that much worse from the point of view of both Hari Kondabalu and probably a lot of Indian-Americans who grew up hearing "thank you, come again" ad nauseam.
    I get the point about a lack of positive representation but bigots are always going to find some thing to latch on to and use against others.

    If Apu wasn't around I doubt the people bullying or abusing Indian American kids wouldn't of found something else to use against them. Apu was the easy thing to use since The Simpson was very popular and there were not many other Indian characters in American popular culture back in the day.

  13. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by ISleepNow View Post
    Here's a counter solution: why couldn't Apu take diction lessons and get a better job if that was his problem as far as his 'representative profile' was concerned rather than getting bounced entirely from the show?
    i can see that easily being interpreted as condescension. imagine them doing the same for Starvin Marvin over in South Park.

    "I just don't get why you wouldn't want to break the law anymore" --Scorpia

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ISleepNow View Post
    Here's a counter solution: why couldn't Apu take diction lessons and get a better job if that was his problem as far as his 'representative profile' was concerned rather than getting bounced entirely from the show? If they were reealy honest which is what All good humor is based on they could've made a very funny episode based on this controversy.
    That might have made a funny episode but even that sounds like a way to write him out of the show. If you changed Apu's job and voice, what would be the point of having him around? I guess they could find a new angle on him, but that's not usually what you do with a comical cartoon character. Apu's raison d'Ítre was being the stereotypical overzealous, workaholic immigrant working at a convenience store. Change that and you pretty much have a totally different character.

  15. #30
    Astonishing Member jetengine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa Moai View Post
    That might have made a funny episode but even that sounds like a way to write him out of the show. If you changed Apu's job and voice, what would be the point of having him around? I guess they could find a new angle on him, but that's not usually what you do with a comical cartoon character. Apu's raison d'Ítre was being the stereotypical overzealous, workaholic immigrant working at a convenience store. Change that and you pretty much have a totally different character.
    Plus they did that with Ground keeper Willy

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