Warren Worthington: (Arch)Angel Appreciation 2020

[whitecrown]

I also liked Warren and Jean, especially in those early issues of X-Factor. Its too bad that they never became a couple in any alternate reality

In What If? Vol 2 60 (the Wedding Album issue), there are multiple alternate realities and one of them features Jean falling in love with Warren instead of Scott. I think as a result Hank becomes the leader of the X-Men instead of Scott so he angrily defects to the Brotherhood (reminds me a bit of Ultimate X-Men's opening arc).


But yeah, it's funny how there were a couple of close calls between them in the 616 Universe and even in X-Men: Season One, but they usually never end up together despite being the original X-Men love triangle.

[whitecrown]

I didn't really like how Remender wrote them and will admit that for the most part since Remender the pair haven't been written that well for the most part, even Betsy's recent return to her original body has been handled pretty poorly and barely given a second thought, personally I would rather she had stayed in the Asian body and Kwannon got popped off into a totally separate body...many don't like Jean and Logan I think because they're afraid that if they were allowed to be together they'd quickly become quite the popular pair, and I'd rather Warren not get involved in a romantic triangle with Jean and Scott let alone Logan and such...

Oh really? I'm surprised since most Warren/Betsy fans usually love Remender's UXF since he gave them a spotlight and their love was compared to Scott and Jean's in the Dark Phoenix Saga. Although they were together in the 90s, they were never given a push like Scott/Jean or Rogue/Gambit back then. I knew they were together but didn't care too much for them as a couple because they never had a definitive story until UXF which cemented them as a classic couple for me.

I'm happy Betsy is back in her original body and I don't even mind her taking on the Captain Britain mantle, but I hate how one-dimensional she's become in Excalibur. And it's absolutely inexcusable that they took away her butterfly imagery and gave it to Kwannon.

For the general public, Jean and Logan are more of a thing than Jean and Scott have ever been because of the films and the few TV shows that depicted them weren't usually very successful in portraying Jott (Jean's a joke in the 90s show, Scott/Rogue were more popular in X-Men Evolution, Jean was missing for most of WATXM, etc.) If Jean and Warren got together, I would want it to NOT be a triangle and Scott to be kept far away.

The Logan and Warren comparisons are interesting because the two never liked each other from day one in Classic X-Men 1 precisely because of Jean. Warren's best friend is Scott so he can accept Jean being with Scott over him but he can't stand the idea that Jean could possibly favor Logan. And Claremont really built up that rivalry after the Archangel transformation. In Inferno, Logan feels like he's going beserk when around Archangel and detects something familiar about him since Claremont's intention was for Apocalypse to have been behind Logan's claws and adamantium skeleton. Hence their fight in X-Tinction Agenda. And Archangel in that era was often described to be as deadly as Wolverine if not moreso because of his added mobility with the wings. So I always felt that was also a plus in Jean/Warren's favor because of how much he ends up sharing in common with Wolverine post-Archangel.

[K7P5V]

Really enjoyed how Remender finally exploited the potential of Archangel



It's too bad no one else after Remender was able to follow his lead and establish Warren as a bona fide threat.

[whitecrown]

Really enjoyed how Remender finally exploited the potential of Archangel



It's too bad no one else after Remender was able to follow his lead and establish Warren as a bona fide threat.

There aren't many, if any, superheroes I can think of who start good and permanently become villains. I know that was the intention for Dark Phoenix but I just can't see that happening in the long run for any character, Archangel included. And I guess Remender gave Archangel such a definitive ending that it would have felt tacked on if he completely reverted back to that form. Not that it stopped Cullen Bunn in his UXM run.

[LoganAlpha30X33]

Oh really? I'm surprised since most Warren/Betsy fans usually love Remender's UXF since he gave them a spotlight and their love was compared to Scott and Jean's in the Dark Phoenix Saga. Although they were together in the 90s, they were never given a push like Scott/Jean or Rogue/Gambit back then. I knew they were together but didn't care too much for them as a couple because they never had a definitive story until UXF which cemented them as a classic couple for me.

I'm happy Betsy is back in her original body and I don't even mind her taking on the Captain Britain mantle, but I hate how one-dimensional she's become in Excalibur. And it's absolutely inexcusable that they took away her butterfly imagery and gave it to Kwannon.

For the general public, Jean and Logan are more of a thing than Jean and Scott have ever been because of the films and the few TV shows that depicted them weren't usually very successful in portraying Jott (Jean's a joke in the 90s show, Scott/Rogue were more popular in X-Men Evolution, Jean was missing for most of WATXM, etc.) If Jean and Warren got together, I would want it to NOT be a triangle and Scott to be kept far away.

The Logan and Warren comparisons are interesting because the two never liked each other from day one in Classic X-Men 1 precisely because of Jean. Warren's best friend is Scott so he can accept Jean being with Scott over him but he can't stand the idea that Jean could possibly favor Logan. And Claremont really built up that rivalry after the Archangel transformation. In Inferno, Logan feels like he's going beserk when around Archangel and detects something familiar about him since Claremont's intention was for Apocalypse to have been behind Logan's claws and adamantium skeleton. Hence their fight in X-Tinction Agenda. And Archangel in that era was often described to be as deadly as Wolverine if not moreso because of his added mobility with the wings. So I always felt that was also a plus in Jean/Warren's favor because of how much he ends up sharing in common with Wolverine post-Archangel.

For me he started the whole dual psyche's in one body kind of thing and that Warren needed Betsy mostly to keep himself in check and such, and I HATED anything between Betsy and Fantomex, that whole bit imho was just terrible for Betsy despite Remender declaring the opposite, about as bad as when CC put her with Neal just because he was leaving to write X-treme and taking them both but not Warren...back in the 90's many x-couples were pushed to the sidelines to feature Scott and Jean, I mean look at Alex and Lorna who could be great when not cast in their shadow and such...I think that the whole being back in her not truly original body since she made it herself out of thin air, the body that Kwannon is in now is one that Betsy's brother Jamie made for Betsy anyway...Marvel seems to have viewed the butterfly and such as being property of Kwannon and not Betsy, though yeah we agree that she's being written poorly in Excalibur...

[Sutekh]

Marvel seems to have viewed the butterfly and such as being property of Kwannon and not Betsy, though yeah we agree that she's being written poorly in Excalibur...

[tangent] Which is just boggling, since the butterfly effect was already used for Betsy long before she got Asian'd up, and it was not clear for many years that Kwannon, pre-swap, was even a mutant! (Although now, inexplicably, she's both a mutant, and, conveniently, has exactly the same powers as Betsy, which begs the question, of why the **** did they body-swap her in the first place, since it was to gain an assassin asset *with Betsy's powers* in the first place?). Ugh. [/tangent]

Anywho, Warren and Jean? Eh. Not sure I want that. Warren and Betsy, again, in her new body, would be interesting, if only because she's literally a new person, even if she's got the same soul underneath, having not only returned to her old British body, but also assumed the Captain Britain mantle.

Another thing I wondered is if Warren ever had any reaction to his 'best friend' Bobby coming out. The two pretty much moved from X-Men to Champions to Defenders together, and then back to X-Factor and X-Men. In all that time, I feel like Warren kind of had to have known something was up (even if nothing was, 'cause, continuity change!), and yet chose to let Bobby live whatever life he was comfortable with (unlike teen Jean). There's possible drama to be mined there, knowing, not-knowing, being too comfortable with 'the way things were' to shake things up and talk about uncomfortable stuff, etc. It could provide some insight as to Warren's character. Did he say nothing for so long because he didn't want to risk losing the only friend he had? Did he wonder if Bobby only hung out with him because he was eye-candy? (As opposed to that other reason why people would hang out with him, because he was stinking rich!)

[LoganAlpha30X33]

I'm going to guess that Marvel never really thought any further than outing one of the original X-Men, otherwise we would have seen that scene already, and the one from Beast and Scott and Xavier...

If memory serves Kwannon's old lover wanted to save her life after she was badly injured and had Spiral mix her body with Betsy's to save her life. Betsy came out in the more Asian looking body and Kwannon in the more English looking body...it wasn't a true bodyswap, more a mixing...

Who knows what will happen once the current set of books is over, anything could happen...W/B...

[whitecrown]

For me he started the whole dual psyche's in one body kind of thing and that Warren needed Betsy mostly to keep himself in check and such, and I HATED anything between Betsy and Fantomex, that whole bit imho was just terrible for Betsy despite Remender declaring the opposite, about as bad as when CC put her with Neal just because he was leaving to write X-treme and taking them both but not Warren...back in the 90's many x-couples were pushed to the sidelines to feature Scott and Jean, I mean look at Alex and Lorna who could be great when not cast in their shadow and such...I think that the whole being back in her not truly original body since she made it herself out of thin air, the body that Kwannon is in now is one that Betsy's brother Jamie made for Betsy anyway...Marvel seems to have viewed the butterfly and such as being property of Kwannon and not Betsy, though yeah we agree that she's being written poorly in Excalibur...

I actually liked the addition of a dual psyche that Warren is combating with internally because I found it more interesting than a regression to the 90s where he's completely Archangel all the time. I forgot about Fantomex and Betsy though lol. That didn't bother me as much as other fans but it certainly did feel like a slap in the face to Warren/Betsy shippers. Ironically enough, Claremont's original plan was to pair up Neal with Jean now that Jean was widowed. I'm not sure why he didn't go through with that except maybe when he swapped Jean and Betsy's powers, he decided to swap love interests as well lol. Claremont was never a big fan of Warren and apparently he once said to a fan that the reason he broke up Warren and Betsy is because Warren wasn't deserving of her. It's funny actually how many men Jean and Betsy have shared then between Warren, Neal, Logan, and Scott (even if it was mostly Kwannon attracted to Scott and not Betsy herself). You could maybe include Alex as well since he had a lot of sexual tension with Betsy in the Outback days and of course he was with Maddie at the time, one of Jean's many incarnations.

The problem with Alex and Lorna is that they were always treated as Scott and Jean 2.0 since the Silver Age and Claremont's run so that wasn't exactly a problem unique to the 90s. In fact, Alex and Lorna had been broken up then so it was Peter David who put them back together in that same quota as the Scott/Jean knockoffs.

Like others have said, I have no idea why Marvel felt that the butterfly should belong to Kwannon especially since 90s Psylocke didn't even utilize the butterfly for pretty much all of the 90s and 2000s. Besides the first couple of Jim Lee issues in X-Men Vol 2 all the way until the Sisterhood arc, the butterfly was completely absent. So I'd argue that ninja Psylocke has less of a connection to the butterfly than Marvel claims if that's the excuse they want to use.

[whitecrown]

Another thing I wondered is if Warren ever had any reaction to his 'best friend' Bobby coming out. The two pretty much moved from X-Men to Champions to Defenders together, and then back to X-Factor and X-Men. In all that time, I feel like Warren kind of had to have known something was up (even if nothing was, 'cause, continuity change!), and yet chose to let Bobby live whatever life he was comfortable with (unlike teen Jean). There's possible drama to be mined there, knowing, not-knowing, being too comfortable with 'the way things were' to shake things up and talk about uncomfortable stuff, etc. It could provide some insight as to Warren's character. Did he say nothing for so long because he didn't want to risk losing the only friend he had? Did he wonder if Bobby only hung out with him because he was eye-candy? (As opposed to that other reason why people would hang out with him, because he was stinking rich!)

Has Warren had any significant interactions with almost any X-Man? I feel like he's been mostly relegated to limbo for the past few years and whenever he is in the spotlight, he's brainwashed as Archangel or some other identity?

A lot of people who want to see the 05 adapted into contemporary times (like the First Class stories or X-Men: Season One) have imagined that Bobby would have a crush on Warren. And that Bobby and Jean would be besties and both share in common a crush on Warren. It's a dynamic I wouldn't mind seeing in the MCU especially if that means Warren isn't excluded from the films or replaced with Storm in the O5.

[LoganAlpha30X33]

I just liked Warren with only himself in his mind, I've also heard that CC was going to leave Warren and Betsy together and only broke them up because he was leaving to write X-treme and wasn't taking Warren with him, otherwise they would have stayed together for the long haul...

[Izanami]

There aren't many, if any, superheroes I can think of who start good and permanently become villains. I know that was the intention for Dark Phoenix but I just can't see that happening in the long run for any character, Archangel included. And I guess Remender gave Archangel such a definitive ending that it would have felt tacked on if he completely reverted back to that form. Not that it stopped Cullen Bunn in his UXM run.

The reason why he was brought back is that the amnesiac angel or NuAngel if you prefer was not an engaging character. There was nothing done with him and it was obvious how much of a place holder he was for the cancelled Remender Arc regarding the Apocalypse Crusade. Long form storytelling is rare these days, Remender should have used him after the arc.

[Izanami]

Also forgot to mention how much of a lost opportunity there was for Teen Angel, out of all the 05 he was neglected the hardest.

freag.jpg

[LoganAlpha30X33]

Marvel was to busy making teen Beast a magical guy, the mess with teen Scott and Jean and making teen Bobby gay so teen Warren often got ignored or Jean just used her tp to make him do what she wanted without his consent and got no flak for it from anyone really...

[Havok83]

Has Warren had any significant interactions with almost any X-Man? I feel like he's been mostly relegated to limbo for the past few years and whenever he is in the spotlight, he's brainwashed as Archangel or some other identity?

A lot of people who want to see the 05 adapted into contemporary times (like the First Class stories or X-Men: Season One) have imagined that Bobby would have a crush on Warren. And that Bobby and Jean would be besties and both share in common a crush on Warren. It's a dynamic I wouldn't mind seeing in the MCU especially if that means Warren isn't excluded from the films or replaced with Storm in the O5.

Probably not in recent years. His most significant interaction tends to be Psylocke as she's been used to fix his mind during most of these Archangel internal conflict. And thats a shame bc he had plenty of meaningful relationships with other X-men in the 90s and 00s

Also forgot to mention how much of a lost opportunity there was for Teen Angel, out of all the 05 he was neglected the hardest.

freag.jpg

Bendis used him. He had that romance with Laura and the Black Vortex stuff. Hopeless and Bunn however didnt seem to have much use for him. I would say he was neck and neck with Bobby though. The only thing of consequences that happened to him was that he was revealed to be gay but that happened at the very end of the Bendis run and he wasnt able to do anything with him. Hopeless gave him a boyfriend towards the end with the IvX stuff. He was also a background character for Bunn

[K7P5V]

The reason why he was brought back is that the amnesiac angel or NuAngel if you prefer was not an engaging character. There was nothing done with him and it was obvious how much of a place holder he was for the cancelled Remender Arc regarding the Apocalypse Crusade. Long form storytelling is rare these days, Remender should have used him after the arc.

Agreed. They should have found a way for him to be a part of Remender's Uncanny Avengers. Logically, that's where Warren's story should have continued.