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  1. #106
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thievery View Post
    Sorry, CRaymond. I responded to this in post 95 of this thread and left some of what I was going to say out of that post.

    Why do you think that Emma would pick Warren out for any kind of role like this? Archangel has never really proven all that successful at running his company. The only time that I can recall him serving as a successful spokesman was during the Casey run on Uncanny. I honestly think that Emma would feel that she could do better than just settling for Archangel. I really cant picture her betting her trade organization on a very likely to lose horse like Archangel. She's already dragging her brother around.

    I'm not criticizing you or your idea. I'm just interested in what you think about this.

    I guess that it would be knew for Warren, though. He's never really liked the Hellfire club or been shown to be interested in it.
    The Hellfire Trading Company and the Hellfire Club are two different entites. The Brats from Aaron's run are back in control of the HFC over in Maraurders. Warren working with the HTC wont have anything to do with his past disinterest in the HFC

    Im not CRaymond but the value Warren brings is his assets and wealth. Even if Warren isnt the best at running a company, that wouldnt matter to Emma as she'd be running the show. We've seen her give men the allusion that they were running the show, while she was ultimately the one in power
    Last edited by Havok83; 05-12-2020 at 01:35 PM.

  2. #107
    The Queen of Maggots Izanami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    The Hellfire Trading Company and the Hellfire Club are two different entites. The Brats from Aaron's run are back in control of the HFC over in Maraurders. Warren working with the HTC wont have nothing to do with his past disinterest in the HFC

    Im not CRaymond but the value Warren brings is his assets and wealth. Even if Warren isnt the best at running a company, that wouldnt matter to Emma as she'd be running the show. We've seen her give men the allusion that they were running the show, while she was ultimately the one in power
    Well said!
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  3. #108
    Extraordinary Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thievery View Post
    Why do you think that Emma would pick Warren out for any kind of role like this? Archangel has never really proven all that successful at running his company. The only time that I can recall him serving as a successful spokesman was during the Casey run on Uncanny. I honestly think that Emma would feel that she could do better than just settling for Archangel. I really cant picture her betting her trade organization on a very likely to lose horse like Archangel. She's already dragging her brother around.
    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    The Hellfire Trading Company and the Hellfire Club are two different entites. The Brats from Aaron's run are back in control of the HFC over in Maraurders. Warren working with the HTC wont have anything to do with his past disinterest in the HFC

    Im not CRaymond but the value Warren brings is his assets and wealth. Even if Warren isnt the best at running a company, that wouldnt matter to Emma as she'd be running the show. We've seen her give men the allusion that they were running the show, while she was ultimately the one in power
    Yeah Havok answered for me pretty clearly. I like the idea of leadership pairs so we see cooperation and conflict, and even though Frost is handling the diplomatic trade of Krakoan pharmaceuticals, it would benefit her to have a spokesperson with a beneficial, harmless, and visible mutation to be the voice and face of mutant trade. Warren is exactly that, plus handsome, white, and rich. Emma could deploy Warren to sell to the masses, while she arm wrestles the politicians. I know he's never been that engaged with his family's business, or the Hellfire Organization, but this is a role he's perfectly suited to. Even if he DOES suffer from violent mood swings and reclusive introversion, that would just lead to tough love pep talks from Emma.

    I think the focus in Marauders on the Red Court is boring, especially when the White and Black operations are far more higher stakes for Krakoa's international standing. Red just goes around liberating mutants, which is fine, but it does nothing to stabilize Krakoa in the global economy.

  4. #109
    Mighty Member Thievery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    The Hellfire Trading Company and the Hellfire Club are two different entites. The Brats from Aaron's run are back in control of the HFC over in Maraurders. Warren working with the HTC wont have anything to do with his past disinterest in the HFC

    Im not CRaymond but the value Warren brings is his assets and wealth. Even if Warren isnt the best at running a company, that wouldnt matter to Emma as she'd be running the show. We've seen her give men the allusion that they were running the show, while she was ultimately the one in power
    The brats from Aaron's run are calling themselves Hominus Verendi over in Marauders. Not the Hellfire Club. So there

    I get the idea that Emma is good at manipulating people into thinking that they are in control when she is the one who is really pulling the strings. However, I think that Warren would realize that Emma may be trying to use him. Warren may not always be depicted at running his company or having good public relation skills, but that doesn't mean that he is stupid. I don't think that he would just take Emma's word at face value.
    And, there are already X-Men who don't trust Emma or the Hellfire orginazation. Bishop pointed out that the Hellfire Trading Company still has titles like King and Queen. And Beast received an invitation to some sort of Hellfire party or meeting, and gave the impression that he wouldn't trust it.
    I doubt that Shinobi recruiting the Fenris Twins into the Black faction would increase any one's trust of the Hellfire Organization. I really do like the Fenris Twins, by the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    Yeah Havok answered for me pretty clearly. I like the idea of leadership pairs so we see cooperation and conflict, and even though Frost is handling the diplomatic trade of Krakoan pharmaceuticals, it would benefit her to have a spokesperson with a beneficial, harmless, and visible mutation to be the voice and face of mutant trade. Warren is exactly that, plus handsome, white, and rich. Emma could deploy Warren to sell to the masses, while she arm wrestles the politicians. I know he's never been that engaged with his family's business, or the Hellfire Organization, but this is a role he's perfectly suited to. Even if he DOES suffer from violent mood swings and reclusive introversion, that would just lead to tough love pep talks from Emma.

    I think the focus in Marauders on the Red Court is boring, especially when the White and Black operations are far more higher stakes for Krakoa's international standing. Red just goes around liberating mutants, which is fine, but it does nothing to stabilize Krakoa in the global economy.
    I agree that the White and Black operations are more interesting than Red, but I still enjoy the Red team's role. I think that they fit in really nicely in the Marauders' comic's Game of Thrones type stories.

    I've never been a big fan of Kitty Pryde, but I do feel as if Captain Kate is one of the best parts of Marauders. She's really grown on me in that role. I will miss her if she is gone for a while.

    However, if Captain Kate is going to be gone for an extended amount of time, perhaps Archangel could take her spot in the Red faction. Emma could get a figure head for her Hellfire company that way. The Red faction focuses a lot on search and rescue type operations. Warren could act as the (somewhat) heroic face of the company. However, if the public saw Archangel as the heroic face of the company, he could still be a ticking time bomb beneath the surface. Warren's mental instability, violent mood swings, and reclusive introversion could still be part of the story that way.
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  5. #110
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    Or they could do something entirely different and have Warren be of sound mind and body, with only one psyche in his head...though sadly I probably shouldn't hold my breath on that one...

  6. #111
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thievery View Post
    The brats from Aaron's run are calling themselves Hominus Verendi over in Marauders. Not the Hellfire Club. So there

    I get the idea that Emma is good at manipulating people into thinking that they are in control when she is the one who is really pulling the strings. However, I think that Warren would realize that Emma may be trying to use him. Warren may not always be depicted at running his company or having good public relation skills, but that doesn't mean that he is stupid. I don't think that he would just take Emma's word at face value.

    And, there are already X-Men who don't trust Emma or the Hellfire orginazation. Bishop pointed out that the Hellfire Trading Company still has titles like King and Queen. And Beast received an invitation to some sort of Hellfire party or meeting, and gave the impression that he wouldn't trust it.
    Does that have to be a problem though? I think that dynamic could be incredibly interesting as they learn to try to work with each other in spite of initial mistrust. He and Emma have had very little interaction despite her being a longtime X-men at this point. I want to see more.

    Kitty would never have joined the Hellfire Club in the past but she had a change of heart is here at the HTC. I dont see why Warren cant. I think for him to be viable, he needs to be willing to adapt and not come into 2020 with the same ideologies as 1990. The current status quo is forcing most characters to embrace new approaches and methods. Jean Grey and Beast in X-Force, Kitty and Bishop as part of the HTC, Gambit working alongside Apocalypse in Excalibur, etc... Right now Warren is stuck on the cutting room floor and the idea that he has never done this or would do that in the past is going to keep there. The natural friction that comes from him stepping outside of his comfort zone will lend itself to tension thats worth writing. I think people need to be open minded and get it out of their head that Warren should be brought back to the same status quo of old

  7. #112
    Extraordinary Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    I think people need to be open minded and get it out of their head that Warren should be brought back to the same status quo of old
    Bendis had Dazzler run for President because she was a well-known and well-regarded mutant. I'm thinking Archangel could serve in a similar capacity as a similarly well-regarded mutant among those international states that recognize international trade with Krakoa. It would be different, interesting, and a challenge for a guy that would prefer to sit back and enjoy his parents money in relative seclusion, or succumb to murderous inclinations with sharp metal wings.

  8. #113
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    Bendis had Dazzler run for President because she was a well-known and well-regarded mutant. I'm thinking Archangel could serve in a similar capacity as a similarly well-regarded mutant among those international states that recognize international trade with Krakoa. It would be different, interesting, and a challenge for a guy that would prefer to sit back and enjoy his parents money in relative seclusion, or succumb to murderous inclinations with sharp metal wings.
    Hmmmm....I guess Im confused on what you actually want. Warren cant be President of the US bc he is now a Krakoan citizen and Krakoa's government doesnt have a President. What exactly do you forsee for him?

  9. #114
    Extraordinary Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Hmmmm....I guess Im confused on what you actually want. Warren cant be President of the US bc he is now a Krakoan citizen and Krakoa's government doesnt have a President. What exactly do you forsee for him?
    I meant it was equivalent in many ways, not that Archangel would run for POTUS. Both Warren and Alison are well-known and well-regarded mutant heros. They could hold a public-facing position. In Bendis/ Dazzler's case, it was President. In CRaymond/Archangel's case, it's as international spokesman for Hellfire Pharmaceuticals.

    Ever read Joe Casey's Wildcats 3.0?

  10. #115
    Mighty Member Thievery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Does that have to be a problem though? I think that dynamic could be incredibly interesting as they learn to try to work with each other in spite of initial mistrust. He and Emma have had very little interaction despite her being a longtime X-men at this point. I want to see more.

    Kitty would never have joined the Hellfire Club in the past but she had a change of heart is here at the HTC. I dont see why Warren cant. I think for him to be viable, he needs to be willing to adapt and not come into 2020 with the same ideologies as 1990. The current status quo is forcing most characters to embrace new approaches and methods. Jean Grey and Beast in X-Force, Kitty and Bishop as part of the HTC, Gambit working alongside Apocalypse in Excalibur, etc... Right now Warren is stuck on the cutting room floor and the idea that he has never done this or would do that in the past is going to keep there. The natural friction that comes from him stepping outside of his comfort zone will lend itself to tension thats worth writing. I think people need to be open minded and get it out of their head that Warren should be brought back to the same status quo of old
    I think that I did a poor of trying to explain what point that I was trying to make. I do that a lot, in case anyone reads this post

    I wasn't trying to imply that Archangel shouldn't try new roles or that his character should stay stagnant. I agree that having Archangel join the Hellfire Company would lead to new stories. That's why I suggested that he might take Captain Kate's place in the Red faction, if Kate is indeed sidelined for a while. And, with Shinobi and Sebastian Shaw part of the Black faction, it would indeed make Warren try new things with people that he doesn't like or trust. I was merely trying to suggest that I don't think that Warren would be foolish enough to let Emma manipulate him and use his company.

    Also, Warren reverting to a killer with split personalities isn't something that I usually advocate for. I've been pretty on the record that I prefer for him to just have his metal wings without having an uncontrollable need to kill. I just think that it would make the idea of Warren putting up a front as a respectful business man who's dangerous would actually be a little more interesting. A Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde type of story. Jekyll was a respected doctor who had to hide his desire to do evil things. Instead of a respected doctor with a repressed dark personality, Warren would be a respected businessman and hero trying to hide his dark impulses from the public.

    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    Bendis had Dazzler run for President because she was a well-known and well-regarded mutant. I'm thinking Archangel could serve in a similar capacity as a similarly well-regarded mutant among those international states that recognize international trade with Krakoa. It would be different, interesting, and a challenge for a guy that would prefer to sit back and enjoy his parents money in relative seclusion, or succumb to murderous inclinations with sharp metal wings.
    I would actually think that Warren occasionally succumbing to his murderous rages while posing as a well regarded mutant spokesman to foreign trade companies and international states would make your story idea more interesting. Sort of the wolf in sheep's clothing type of story. Like I said earlier, a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde story. And, it would make him more like the Hellfire club members that he despises.
    Last edited by Thievery; 05-14-2020 at 09:58 AM. Reason: to try and correct my terribele spelling and grammer
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  11. #116
    Extraordinary Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thievery View Post
    I would actually think that Warren occasionally succumbing to his murderous rages while posing as a well regarded mutant spokesman to foreign trade companies and international states would make your story idea more interesting. Sort of the wolf in sheep's clothing type of story. Like I said earlier, a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde story. And, it would make him more like the Hellfire club members that he despises.
    Oh sure. Being both dangerous and reclusive would add pressure to him in this new position. Drama for your mama.

    I certainly wasn't saying he wouldn't be those things, but that the new spokesperson role would be a new element and focus added to the character.

    Hell, I want Wolverine to be Shaw's spokesperson!

  12. #117
    Mighty Member Thievery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    Oh sure. Being both dangerous and reclusive would add pressure to him in this new position. Drama for your mama.

    I certainly wasn't saying he wouldn't be those things, but that the new spokesperson role would be a new element and focus added to the character.

    Hell, I want Wolverine to be Shaw's spokesperson!
    I forgot to ask you this earlier.

    Why do you want Wolverine to speak for Sebastian Shaw?

    I'm not trying to be critical. I just would have never thought of something like this and am genuinely interested in how you came up with this idea.
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  13. #118
    Extraordinary Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    I ASSUME New York City would be the center of White Court economic activity. It's where Frost Holdings, the Hellfire Club, and the NYSE is located. That could change, obviously, if diplomacy changes. But then the other possible centers for global trade are all Atlantic port cities, like London, Amsterdam, Cape Town, São Paulo...

    Where would the center of black market trade be located in the Marvel Universe, and for symmetry's sake, where in the Pacific/East Asian hemispheres? The obvious answer is Madripoor. SO, if Shaw wants to keep Shaw Holdings clean, but needs an impressive and threatening persona to manage sales and deals in Madripoor, he would see the potential in making Patch that point-person. Backed financially by Landau, Luckman & Lake, "Patch" could hold court in Madripoor, and personally handle deals that go wrong, and be given missions to take out threats to Shaw's business interests.

    I realize Wolverine is very unlikely to want to work with Shaw, but someone needs to make sure his business activity is strictly Krakoan, and not engaging in Sentinel technologies. Wolverine is a spy for the Quiet Council —they anticipate that Shaw will seek to destroy Krakoa and return to the original global status quo. Letting Shaw run the Black Court will expose the money flow to Orchis and other threats.

    I have a whole workup for how I'd have re-rostered the Hellfire Organization and "Marauders", starting with Monarchs choosing a Consort. Shaw & Patch, Frost & Worthington, Pryde & Caliban(!)

  14. #119
    Mighty Member Thievery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    I ASSUME New York City would be the center of White Court economic activity. It's where Frost Holdings, the Hellfire Club, and the NYSE is located. That could change, obviously, if diplomacy changes. But then the other possible centers for global trade are all Atlantic port cities, like London, Amsterdam, Cape Town, São Paulo...

    Where would the center of black market trade be located in the Marvel Universe, and for symmetry's sake, where in the Pacific/East Asian hemispheres? The obvious answer is Madripoor. SO, if Shaw wants to keep Shaw Holdings clean, but needs an impressive and threatening persona to manage sales and deals in Madripoor, he would see the potential in making Patch that point-person. Backed financially by Landau, Luckman & Lake, "Patch" could hold court in Madripoor, and personally handle deals that go wrong, and be given missions to take out threats to Shaw's business interests.

    I realize Wolverine is very unlikely to want to work with Shaw, but someone needs to make sure his business activity is strictly Krakoan, and not engaging in Sentinel technologies. Wolverine is a spy for the Quiet Council —they anticipate that Shaw will seek to destroy Krakoa and return to the original global status quo. Letting Shaw run the Black Court will expose the money flow to Orchis and other threats.

    I have a whole workup for how I'd have re-rostered the Hellfire Organization and "Marauders", starting with Monarchs choosing a Consort. Shaw & Patch, Frost & Worthington, Pryde & Caliban(!)
    I know that I'm late responding to your post, but I've been busy. Sorry.

    When you say Consort, do you mean romantic relationship?

    I'm interested in how you would re-roster the comic seeing as you have obviously put a lot of thought into this idea.

    If I were to re-roster the Hellfire Organization and Marauders, I think that I would do this

    White Faction:
    Emma Frost
    Christian Frost
    Iceman
    Callisto
    Banshee

    Black Faction:
    Sebastion Shaw
    Lourdes Chantel
    Shinobi Shaw
    Fenris Twins

    Red Faction:
    Kate Pryde
    Karma
    Bishop
    Archangel
    Monet

    Marauders:
    Storm
    Pyro
    Warpath
    Siryn
    Wolverine
    Caliban

    Really though, you could probably just switch the Marauders line up in every story. The Hellfire Organization would just pick whatever characters just fit a mission.
    I like Wolverine, but I think that he appears in to many books. I'd make an exception in this case though, because the comic has used Madripoor as part of it's location.

    Edit: If Captain Kate wont be resurrected for a while, I'm not sure who I would replace her with. Storm, maybe. Just so she could act as an antagonist to Emma and Shaw.
    Last edited by Thievery; 05-18-2020 at 03:13 PM.
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  15. #120
    Extraordinary Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thievery View Post
    When you say Consort, do you mean romantic relationship?
    lol no. strictly business. the monarch leads, the consort executes. bishops guide, knights battle, rooks protect.

    White
    Monarch // Emma
    Consort // Warren
    Bishops // Robert Drake & Jon Starsmore
    Knights // Jubilee, Husk, Penance
    Rooks // Gateway

    Black
    Monarch // Sebastian
    Consort // Logan (Patch)
    Bishops // Shinobi Shaw & Trevor Fitzroy
    Knights // Gambit, Psylocke, Frenzy
    Rooks // Fenris

    Red
    Monarch // Kate
    Consort // Caliban
    Bishops // Rogue & Bishop
    Knights // Magik, Rachel
    Rooks // Wiz Kid

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