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  1. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganAlpha30X33 View Post
    Warren's psyche issues have become like Jean and the Phoenix or Betsy and her body issues or Rogue and not being able to touch, it's often a crutch for writers to go back to seemingly when something new evades them...well I think that part of the reason that Warren never noticed that Bobby was attracted to him was partially because for most of both characters time in comics Bobby wasn't attracted to him, then it all got retconned in that he was...as for Nicieza I actually got into the X-Men really when Revanche first showed up and I never really saw Betsy as just the Asian body from day one and understood mostly the whole body change with Kwannon vs Betsy thing so I never grew to hate it like others...if anything I quickly grew to hate the recent turning Warren back into Archangel more with how it happened and then his two psyche things, leaving alone the whole Paige problem...and how she told him that she'd talked to Betsy in the afterlife thing, as we never found out if that actually happened or not, and if it did then does Betsy remember it...
    The characters never evolve and eventually they grow tiresome when their storylines only revolve around one issue. The ironic thing about the Warren-Bobby attraction thing is that way back in their Champions/New Defenders days, Bobby used to bring home girls who were only interested in him because of Warren.

    The Revanche/Psylocke storyline wasn't that bad in X-Men 31-32 but the fact that almost ten issues earlier Nicieza had tried to resolve that storyline only to realize he had completely messed it up and needed to retcon his mistake made it really difficult to absorb. I'm not surprised he got a lot of criticism over it from readers. Also, frankly Revanche's introduction never amounted to anything. She was barely around and even when she was, she was reduced to wallpaper and never had any major story or emphasis beyond being introduced and then dying. I didn't even remember the whole storyline about Betsy in the afterlife until you mentioned it.

  2. #167
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whitecrown View Post
    The characters never evolve and eventually they grow tiresome when their storylines only revolve around one issue. The ironic thing about the Warren-Bobby attraction thing is that way back in their Champions/New Defenders days, Bobby used to bring home girls who were only interested in him because of Warren.

    The Revanche/Psylocke storyline wasn't that bad in X-Men 31-32 but the fact that almost ten issues earlier Nicieza had tried to resolve that storyline only to realize he had completely messed it up and needed to retcon his mistake made it really difficult to absorb. I'm not surprised he got a lot of criticism over it from readers. Also, frankly Revanche's introduction never amounted to anything. She was barely around and even when she was, she was reduced to wallpaper and never had any major story or emphasis beyond being introduced and then dying. I didn't even remember the whole storyline about Betsy in the afterlife until you mentioned it.
    He should have revealed Kwannon to have been the real Betsy Braddock as she originally claimed and Psylocke to have been a fraud sent to infiltrate the X-men. They could have had everyone assume that she was the X-traitor that Bishop came to stop, not realizing that the traitor was still on the loose until Onslaught

  3. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by MechaJeanix View Post
    My brother and I debate Angel sometimes. He likes him as he was originally - with his feathered wings. I prefer him in the Archangel look - blue skin and metal wings that shoot knives. I do like it best when he can switch between the two versions.

    I agree that it is tedious the amount of times he loses control of the Archangel persona and I agree it is like when they always go back to Dark Phoenix with Jean. I like both Warren and Jean as Archangel and Phoenix but when they have them out of control or "bad" it is not good for them and it is recycling old stories.

    Archangel should be in control of his metal winged version, just like Jean should have stayed Phoenix and been in control, but writers can't help but have them go "dark".

    I am very excited for the X-men Empyre mini because of Warren. I want to see what role he has to play in this new era and I wish he would be featured regularly in a book. He could work well on X-force, X-factor, Marauders or Hellions imo. Someone just needs to give him a purpose.
    As an 05 fan, I prefer him with feathered wings but I like him being able to switch to Archangel rather than be permanently stuck in that form. Especially since the X-Men frankly have enough blue characters already (Beast, Nightcrawler, Mystique, Apocalypse, maybe even Iceman) that they really didn't need another one.

    My favorite incarnation of Jean is the Phoenix version as well but like Warren as Archangel, it's a storyline that's become tedious now. They should be left alone or allowed to embrace those parts of themselves without going crazy and committing mass genocide. At this point it would be more radical and revolutionary for a story where Warren or Jean could be in control of their powers and not go dark.

    I'd like to see him in X-Force personally because he has close connections to the main cast like Jean, Logan, and Hank and could establish new bonds with the other characters.

  4. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    He should have revealed Kwannon to have been the real Betsy Braddock as she originally claimed and Psylocke to have been a fraud sent to infiltrate the X-men. They could have had everyone assume that she was the X-traitor that Bishop came to stop, not realizing that the traitor was still on the loose until Onslaught
    From what I remember isn't that what he started off telling in X-Men 20-22 before he was told that Betsy actually did appear in Acts of Vengeance in her British body even after entering the Siege Perilous so his version of events didn't gel with continuity? Thus forcing him to hold off and then tell the real story in X-Men 31-32 where he killed off Kwannon? I know Claremont never planned for Asian Betsy to be permanent and he also claimed that writers after him used a lot of his dropped storylines so maybe this is what Nicieza was going off of, he just couldn't execute it properly. There were hints I think even in Claremont's run that Betsy was still brainwashed by the Hand and then the Omega Red introduction arc also used this idea to an extent.

  5. #170
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    If memory serves Remender was going to fully kill off Warren during his run but he wasn't allowed, thus we got the NuAngel, as for Warren I do like him with the metal wings though that he is in control of with only one psyche in his head, and the whole Paige thing only happened because Paige came back and told him that she'd seen Betsy in the afterlife and that Betsy had told her to tell Warren to move on, though nobody made it clear whether that actually happened or whether Paige just thought that it happened, and later on there was that one mutant that tried to kill Bobby and Warren and admitted that Betsy had a very special place in Warren's heart and that no one could ever dislodge her from that spot or something along those lines...

    I'd rather Warren stay away from X-Force, Betsy as well...as for Revanche I've long thought that body should have gotten a different soul and had her own existence apart from Betsy, say some woman that was suffering from an illness like Stephen Hawking only to die and then wake up in the Revanche body with looks and powers and all of that and go from there...

  6. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by whitecrown View Post
    From what I remember isn't that what he started off telling in X-Men 20-22 before he was told that Betsy actually did appear in Acts of Vengeance in her British body even after entering the Siege Perilous so his version of events didn't gel with continuity? Thus forcing him to hold off and then tell the real story in X-Men 31-32 where he killed off Kwannon? I know Claremont never planned for Asian Betsy to be permanent and he also claimed that writers after him used a lot of his dropped storylines so maybe this is what Nicieza was going off of, he just couldn't execute it properly. There were hints I think even in Claremont's run that Betsy was still brainwashed by the Hand and then the Omega Red introduction arc also used this idea to an extent.
    I believe his original idea, might have to look at it if it still exists somewhere on the internet just to double check, is that the Psylocke everyone knew was going to be the impostor (the Asian Betsy) and the real Betsy was the one that came back in her original body. There was something regarding the switcharoo and the original Betsy was going to die of the Legacy Virus with Kwannon taking the mantle.
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  7. #172
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    As stated in multiple interviews, Remender didn't want to kill Warren off, the thought came as a garbage idea when you are ready to write a rough draft for an issue and he discarded the thought when he got to that part of his script. Marvel had no say about bringing him back as NuAngel.
    I come when there's something to take but I never give anything back.
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  8. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Izanami View Post
    I believe his original idea, might have to look at it if it still exists somewhere on the internet just to double check, is that the Psylocke everyone knew was going to be the impostor (the Asian Betsy) and the real Betsy was the one that came back in her original body. There was something regarding the switcharoo and the original Betsy was going to die of the Legacy Virus with Kwannon taking the mantle.
    So basically in his original version, the British Betsy would die and the Asian Kwannon (the 90s Psylocke the readers would have spent the most time with) would have ended up sticking around and taking over the British Betsy's mantle? It's funny because a lot of Betsy fans would claim that this is exactly what has ended up happening just 30 years later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Izanami View Post
    As stated in multiple interviews, Remender didn't want to kill Warren off, the thought came as a garbage idea when you are ready to write a rough draft for an issue and he discarded the thought when he got to that part of his script. Marvel had no say about bringing him back as NuAngel.
    I remember his interview about how he wanted that moment where Betsy would see Warren again and run to him only to realize he's not her Warren and he doesn't recognize her. So it definitely wasn't a case where Remender wanted to kill him off but Marvel wouldn't let him.

  9. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganAlpha30X33 View Post
    If memory serves Remender was going to fully kill off Warren during his run but he wasn't allowed, thus we got the NuAngel, as for Warren I do like him with the metal wings though that he is in control of with only one psyche in his head, and the whole Paige thing only happened because Paige came back and told him that she'd seen Betsy in the afterlife and that Betsy had told her to tell Warren to move on, though nobody made it clear whether that actually happened or whether Paige just thought that it happened, and later on there was that one mutant that tried to kill Bobby and Warren and admitted that Betsy had a very special place in Warren's heart and that no one could ever dislodge her from that spot or something along those lines...

    I'd rather Warren stay away from X-Force, Betsy as well...as for Revanche I've long thought that body should have gotten a different soul and had her own existence apart from Betsy, say some woman that was suffering from an illness like Stephen Hawking only to die and then wake up in the Revanche body with looks and powers and all of that and go from there...
    My issue with Warren as pure Archangel as that the 90s already did it and he was basically just dark and brooding the whole time. It suited the era but it's a concept that's grown stale. If it wasn't Betsy who reached out to Paige I suppose it could have been Jamie Braddock pulling the strings behind the encounter because that sounds like something he would do, especially considering he brought Betsy back.

    There was a lot they could have done with Revanche but they chose to just kill her off. And even now that they've brought her back, they've only done so because Marvel feels she can take on Psylocke's image and keep the popular Asian version of the character around since British Betsy posing as her is too problematic now. They have no interest in developing Kwannon as her own unique character, hence why she has the codename, the costume, the powers, and even the butterfly effect from Betsy.

  10. #175
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Remender killing off Warren in UXF was such a powerful moment that was cheapened by the Hippie Angel. They should have had him be an amnesiac at the school for a short time who got fed up with people refusing to accept that he wasnt Warren and take off. We wouldnt see him for a few years with a new name an identity.

  11. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by whitecrown View Post
    So basically in his original version, the British Betsy would die and the Asian Kwannon (the 90s Psylocke the readers would have spent the most time with) would have ended up sticking around and taking over the British Betsy's mantle? It's funny because a lot of Betsy fans would claim that this is exactly what has ended up happening just 30 years later.
    I still need to find the source where he talks about it so I may be wrong. I do remember that originally he planned the impostor storyline to go much longer than was shown. Psylocke was never made to become Asian and would have perished with the Legacy Virus at a later date if they didn't change their mind. In Issue 22 of X-men published in 1993, the story starts with Kwannon finding Post-Siege Perilous Psylocke. When she comes into Physical contact with her their minds fuse and get shuffled. Kwannon runs away thinking she is Psylocke and is found by the hand who brainwashes her and have her serve as Lady Mandarin. Nyoirin finds OG Psylcoke and nurses her back to health. This was going to be the original storyline until someone pointed out it contradicts the elements established in the original storyline. Due to that, he ended up making the storyline shorter and killing Revanche faster than intended as to get rid of the horribly edited plothole no one notified him off. As much crap as Nicieza gets, it wasn't his fault but the editor who didn't do his job or anyone higher up. Her awful behavior with seducing Scott was also hinting at that being Kwannon and not the real Betsy who was not around at the time. Also to show why Scott was deserving of Jean as he didn't cheat and Jean standing up to Kwannon.

    This is a page from the old issue.

    https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-cfqnRGP5T...-%2BRetcon.png
    I come when there's something to take but I never give anything back.
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  12. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Izanami View Post
    I still need to find the source where he talks about it so I may be wrong. I do remember that originally he planned the impostor storyline to go much longer than was shown. Psylocke was never made to become Asian and would have perished with the Legacy Virus at a later date if they didn't change their mind. In Issue 22 of X-men published in 1993, the story starts with Kwannon finding Post-Siege Perilous Psylocke. When she comes into Physical contact with her their minds fuse and get shuffled. Kwannon runs away thinking she is Psylocke and is found by the hand who brainwashes her and have her serve as Lady Mandarin. Nyoirin finds OG Psylcoke and nurses her back to health. This was going to be the original storyline until someone pointed out it contradicts the elements established in the original storyline. Due to that, he ended up making the storyline shorter and killing Revanche faster than intended as to get rid of the horribly edited plothole no one notified him off. As much crap as Nicieza gets, it wasn't his fault but the editor who didn't do his job or anyone higher up. Her awful behavior with seducing Scott was also hinting at that being Kwannon and not the real Betsy who was not around at the time. Also to show why Scott was deserving of Jean as he didn't cheat and Jean standing up to Kwannon.

    This is a page from the old issue.

    https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-cfqnRGP5T...-%2BRetcon.png
    Thank you for the info. The 90s is when Marvel editorial really just stopped doing their jobs although that decline may have started even a few years before then. I know the Cyclops/Psylocke stuff was inspired by the fact that Claremont planned on breaking up Scott and Jean and pairing Jean up with Logan and Scott with Betsy. However considering how OOC the characters were, it turned out to be a blessing when they could later blame it all on Kwannon and her psychic manipulations. To be honest, Scott may not have physically cheated but he clearly was interested in Psylocke and didn't make an effort hiding it. There was also a panel where I think he was imagining himself with Psylocke and I can't remember if the implication was that psychically they were really kissing.

  13. #178
    The Queen of Maggots Izanami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Remender killing off Warren in UXF was such a powerful moment that was cheapened by the Hippie Angel. They should have had him be an amnesiac at the school for a short time who got fed up with people refusing to accept that he wasn't Warren and take off. We wouldn't see him for a few years with a new name and identity.
    The worst part is that the same premise happened with Kid Loki which was not only successful but actually addressed the problems he had to confront while creating his own identity. You have various examples in other media with this plot of amnesia like Robocop, Faye Valentine, and even Cloud from FF7. I wouldn't even mind if he helped out Teen Warren and become an interesting Legacy Character.
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  14. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Remender killing off Warren in UXF was such a powerful moment that was cheapened by the Hippie Angel. They should have had him be an amnesiac at the school for a short time who got fed up with people refusing to accept that he wasnt Warren and take off. We wouldnt see him for a few years with a new name an identity.
    What I found hard to believe is that he resided at the Jean Grey school but only Logan, Kitty, and Hank knew the truth about what had happened to him. So what about someone like Bobby or Rogue or Rachel who would clearly be able to tell that this isn't the same Warren and something is seriously wrong? And wouldn't Rachel be able to figure out the truth in a second and disclose that information?

  15. #180
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whitecrown View Post
    What I found hard to believe is that he resided at the Jean Grey school but only Logan, Kitty, and Hank knew the truth about what had happened to him. So what about someone like Bobby or Rogue or Rachel who would clearly be able to tell that this isn't the same Warren and something is seriously wrong? And wouldn't Rachel be able to figure out the truth in a second and disclose that information?
    It wasnt a secret. Warren's change was obvious and Wolverine had no problem explaining what happened


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