Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 78
  1. #31
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    460

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    So the lesson is do a full hard reboot next time, cool.
    Well, that’s the rule with anything in life. IF you’re going to do something, don’t do it half assed. Problem is DC always wants to have it’s cake and eat it, too (which why all of their reboots have been half assed)

    Now I’m not saying DC SHOULD do a reboot, but IF they were to reboot I’d prefer a complete reboot starting with Superman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Green Arrow, Batman, Robin, (Dick) Speedy, (Roy) and mostly the Golden Age characters (Alan Scott/Green Lantern, Jay Garrick/Flash, Carter Hall/Hawkman, Ted Knight/Starman, etc,) with all of their original Golden Age concepts updated (unlike the New 52 Earth 2 versions) with some other characters like Firestorm, Vixen, Black Lightning, etc.

    That way they can ignore all of the disgruntled fans of all of the eras that came afterwards (Silver Age fans, Bronze Age fans, post Crisis on Infinite Earths to 1994 fans, Zero Hour to Identity Crisis fans, etc) and the infighting they do amongst themselves, so they can just focus on telling quality stories.

  2. #32
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    4,105

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Really what old fans want - new people would take one look at the old art with the bold colors and the outdated dialog and nope right out.
    Can confirm. I only started reading older comics once I realize New 52 sucks in an "I guess I have to" kind of way, and I still haven't touched the ugly 90s fashion period.

    I realized what I want is the same story with updated art... and dialogue... and less jerk Batman... but most of the story beats remain the same

  3. #33
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    2,213

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    So the lesson is do a full hard reboot next time, cool.
    Alternatively, the answer is don’t do a “reboot” - do a “remix” like the Batman books experienced after the Crisis on Infite Earths.

    Don’t start over; instead, while carrying on the successful elements of the previous contuinty in some stories, run parallel retellings... but only when you’ve got writers with quality ideas.

    Don’t go looking to give someone like Scott Lobdell a successful character founded by better writers and then tell him to reboot him just because you can.

    But when a Scott Snyder/Frank Miller/Jeph Loeb tells you, “Hey, I’ve got an idea for an early Batman story or origin idea, and my idea is genuinely good, and my record write now speaks for me...”

    ...That’s when you let them retell it, and that’s the story that you use marketing on to get new readers... along with other just good stories.

    Honestly, new readers are going to come for good stories that are well told, period.

    I was convinced to get into comics because of Young Justice, the Peter Alan David comic, because PAD was a good writer and new how to target a book at new readers. And that was a book dealing with a third Robin, a second Wonder Girl, a clone Superboy, and Impulse.

    “Continuity lockout” isn’t going to effect someone if the story is good enough. Reboots depends on getting a good enough writer and strong enough run to justify replacing the previous continuity; the Post-Crisis stories wound up generally having better writers than the New 52 had.
    Franchise Wars Podcast and YouTube Host.
    TITANS pilot Recap, Reaction, and Review video! https://youtu.be/l1tKBTUtiyM
    The Force Awakens vs The Last Jedi https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=2&i=408109126
    Teen Titans (03) vs Teen Titans Go! https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=2&i=400482734

  4. #34
    Astonishing Member Mutant God's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    2,539

    Default

    Not changing anything would be redundant but changing something would make it into an alternate universe so I think its best to just keep moving forward with the timeline.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    With Jason Todd as Batman, Dick Grayson as Two Face, Bruce Wayne as Joker, Tim Drake as Condiment King, and Damian Wayne as Robin.
    Im thinking Kate Kane as Bat(wo)man, Bruce as Joker, Joker as Red Hood with Dick, Tim, and Jason as Red Hoodlings, Bullock as Two-Face and Stephanie Brown as Anarky lol
    Skeeter: Hey time traveling O5 members of the X-Men We don't take kindly to people who create a time paradox around here!

    Bartender: Now calm down Skeeter they aint hurtin nobody.

    Skeeter: No! I wanna know som'in from the "O5" How come you cant go back to your own timeline in the first place and how come when Reed Richards "fixed" the universe you wasnt put back and how come the changes that happn to you dont happn to your present day selves?

    Bartender: Skeeter I dont want trouble

  5. #35
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    788

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by docmidnite View Post
    DC has never done a hard reboot where they started everything over completely from scratch before. They’ve done a bunch of half assed reboots where they rebooted a lot of things but didn’t reboot others, but they’ve never done a full reboot.

    That’s why DC’s had so many continuity problems since the first Crisis event.
    1986 - Superman, John Byrne, Wonder Woman, George Perez.

    Superman, a most notable instance for DC's most iconic hero / franchise, everything started over again. Re-updated his origins in Krypton, Smallville, Metropolis. Jonathan and Martha Kent living through Clark's Supermandom. Lex Luthor CEO of Lexcorp. Restarting relationship with Lois Lane. And gradually battling many of his enemies again. And it still took years before "classic" incarnation of characters like Bizarro Superman, Supergirl, Krypto, and Brainiac, became re-depicted again.

    To my knowledge, the only remainder slips of Pre-Crisis Superman that processed Post-Crisis, was Darkseid remembering Pre-Crisis Parasite, which led to Post-Crisis Parasite, and a couple of Fourth Walls in Animal Man. But, other than that, everything Superman started over again, and built from there.

  6. #36
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,974

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ngroove View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by docmidnite View Post
    DC has never done a hard reboot where they started everything over completely from scratch before. They’ve done a bunch of half assed reboots where they rebooted a lot of things but didn’t reboot others, but they’ve never done a full reboot.

    That’s why DC’s had so many continuity problems since the first Crisis event.
    1986 - Superman, John Byrne, Wonder Woman, George Perez.

    Superman, a most notable instance for DC's most iconic hero / franchise, everything started over again. Re-updated his origins in Krypton, Smallville, Metropolis. Jonathan and Martha Kent living through Clark's Supermandom. Lex Luthor CEO of Lexcorp. Restarting relationship with Lois Lane. And gradually battling many of his enemies again. And it still took years before "classic" incarnation of characters like Bizarro Superman, Supergirl, Krypto, and Brainiac, became re-depicted again.

    To my knowledge, the only remainder slips of Pre-Crisis Superman that processed Post-Crisis, was Darkseid remembering Pre-Crisis Parasite, which led to Post-Crisis Parasite, and a couple of Fourth Walls in Animal Man. But, other than that, everything Superman started over again, and built from there.
    Superman and Wonder Woman are everything?

    I guess the New Teen Titans were nothing in 1986.
    Last edited by scary harpy; 01-24-2020 at 09:41 AM.

  7. #37
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    460

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ngroove View Post
    1986 - Superman, John Byrne, Wonder Woman, George Perez.

    Superman, a most notable instance for DC's most iconic hero / franchise, everything started over again. Re-updated his origins in Krypton, Smallville, Metropolis. Jonathan and Martha Kent living through Clark's Supermandom. Lex Luthor CEO of Lexcorp. Restarting relationship with Lois Lane. And gradually battling many of his enemies again. And it still took years before "classic" incarnation of characters like Bizarro Superman, Supergirl, Krypto, and Brainiac, became re-depicted again.

    To my knowledge, the only remainder slips of Pre-Crisis Superman that processed Post-Crisis, was Darkseid remembering Pre-Crisis Parasite, which led to Post-Crisis Parasite, and a couple of Fourth Walls in Animal Man. But, other than that, everything Superman started over again, and built from there.
    New Teen Titans, Green Lantern, Justice League Detroit, Flash, Batman and the Outsiders, etc, were not rebooted after Crisis on Infinite Earths in 1986.

  8. #38
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,974

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by docmidnite View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ngroove View Post
    1986 - Superman, John Byrne, Wonder Woman, George Perez.

    Superman, a most notable instance for DC's most iconic hero / franchise, everything started over again. Re-updated his origins in Krypton, Smallville, Metropolis. Jonathan and Martha Kent living through Clark's Supermandom. Lex Luthor CEO of Lexcorp. Restarting relationship with Lois Lane. And gradually battling many of his enemies again. And it still took years before "classic" incarnation of characters like Bizarro Superman, Supergirl, Krypto, and Brainiac, became re-depicted again.

    To my knowledge, the only remainder slips of Pre-Crisis Superman that processed Post-Crisis, was Darkseid remembering Pre-Crisis Parasite, which led to Post-Crisis Parasite, and a couple of Fourth Walls in Animal Man. But, other than that, everything Superman started over again, and built from there.
    New Teen Titans, Green Lantern, Justice League Detroit, Flash, Batman and the Outsiders, etc, were not rebooted after Crisis on Infinite Earths in 1986.
    Exactly.

    New Teen Titans was selling well so DC, in it's finite wisdom, decided not to reboot this title. Big Mistake.


    Yes, ngroove, Superman was rebooted to classic status.

    Wonder Woman was not rebooted to classic status. She had her supporting cast and her history removed e.g. she wasn’t a founding member of the JLA.

    New Teen Titans were not rebooted…because the title sold well.

    That decision resulted in Wonder Girl debuting years before Wonder Woman did. (This would be like Superboy of Smallville debuting years before Superman of Metropolis…if they were 2 different people.)

    Years later, the Titans book was not selling well…but this hot mess was still with us.
    Last edited by scary harpy; 01-25-2020 at 05:28 AM.

  9. #39
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,676

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Can confirm. I only started reading older comics once I realize New 52 sucks in an "I guess I have to" kind of way, and I still haven't touched the ugly 90s fashion period.

    I realized what I want is the same story with updated art... and dialogue... and less jerk Batman... but most of the story beats remain the same
    See, I've always had an issue with this. This is not how you move stories and characters forward. This is how you keep them stagnant and static (which is pretty much the same reason I'm not really a fan of Geoff Johns. The guy basically just rewrites his favorite stories from his childhood only sucking all the life and wonder from them. This isn't creativity, it's counterfeiting).

    That said, I'm well aware that most comic fans really aren't interested in character or story progression in the least. They want what guys like Geoff Johns puts out: the same stories over and over and over again, each time just a little more diluted.
    His current approval rating is 34%, meaning 34% of Americans are still morons.

  10. #40
    Spectacular Member Gotham citizen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2019
    Posts
    182

    Default

    I don't think Restingvoice is wrong, because after eighty years all the stories are already been told: we had Batman who fight against every kind of mafia: Chinese, Italian… (or street gangs like the Street Demons), against every kind of sociopathic/psychopathic, against every kind of supernatural beings: vampires, werewolves, mutants; he fought also against terrorists. What kind of story never told before can we have?
    I don't think someone would want story like (I'm exaggerate) Batman meets a Damian older than him, born by a Talia's clone and risen by an Helena Wayne of an alternative future or where we find out Bruce's father wasn't killed by a criminal, but kidnapped by the aliens and now he is a space corsair; every reference to the X-men is not unintentional.
    I think every comic book must have a well defined identity and the stories must be faithful to that identity, leaving evolve the title accordingly to the time and the tastes of the readers, but without betray that identity because the kind of stories which works for the X-men (or Superman) doesn't work for Batman; and vice versa.
    In my humble opinion is the quality of the stories that make a title great, not the "jumps in the dark" of the illusory changes (like when the Commissioner Gordon became the Barbara's uncle when before was her father) or the revolutions not well pondered.

    In my humble opinion the first step to start a reboot should be understand what works and what doesn't work in every title, what is the identity of each title, what the readers really want, how to preserve these identities and the things that work, fix what doesn't work and how to give to the reader the kind of story they want read. Without that every reboot will fail, leaving to the reader the distasteful taste of an illusory change that didn't changed nothing and that nobody wanted.
    Last edited by Gotham citizen; 01-25-2020 at 11:57 AM.
    «It's like kids trying to write stories for adults or something.» The World about the Alfred's dead.
    «Heroism is not about being perfect or always winning, but breathing hope into the hopeless.» Literature Devil about "Luke Skywalker betrayal".

  11. #41
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,676

    Default

    Writers come up with them all the time. Batman's Grave is an example, as is Batman White Knight, Batman Universe, and Dark Knight Returns: The Golden Child.

    I honestly just think that's just an excuse not to write anything new and roll around in nostalgia.
    His current approval rating is 34%, meaning 34% of Americans are still morons.

  12. #42
    Spectacular Member Gotham citizen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2019
    Posts
    182

    Default

    I might agree with you, but you should explain what you mean with new, because the only new thing I read is "No men's land": it was the only time Batman had to face something he didn't ever face before; but maybe my idea of new is different by yours.
    Last edited by Gotham citizen; 01-25-2020 at 12:14 PM.
    «It's like kids trying to write stories for adults or something.» The World about the Alfred's dead.
    «Heroism is not about being perfect or always winning, but breathing hope into the hopeless.» Literature Devil about "Luke Skywalker betrayal".

  13. #43
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,676

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gotham citizen View Post
    I might agree with you, but you should explain what you mean with new, because the only new thing I read is "No men's land": it was the only time Batman had to face something he didn't ever face before; but maybe my idea of new is different by yours.
    Could be, fair enough. In addition to the stories in my previous post, Officer Down was new, as was Murderer/Fugitive. The original Flashpoint Batman story while obviously a take on the old Thomas Wayne was also Batman idea, it was certainly a wildly different take.
    His current approval rating is 34%, meaning 34% of Americans are still morons.

  14. #44
    Spectacular Member Gotham citizen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2019
    Posts
    182

    Default

    Now I understand what you mean: I never considered Officer Down like a new story, because it was deeply rooted in the usual Batman scenario: the fight against Gotham criminality. Instead about Flashpoint Batman I can't say I like that kind of stories, because they are stories about alternative realities and I don't think they fit to Batman, on the contrary I think they betray the identity of the title. Like I wrote the kind of stories which are good for the X-men doesn't are good for Batman and vice versa and in my opinion the stories about alternative realities are exactly that kind of stories: they are perfect for the X-men (if only Marvel put some order in the mess they have become: they really need a hard reboot), but they don't work for Batman.
    Last edited by Gotham citizen; 01-26-2020 at 06:20 AM.
    «It's like kids trying to write stories for adults or something.» The World about the Alfred's dead.
    «Heroism is not about being perfect or always winning, but breathing hope into the hopeless.» Literature Devil about "Luke Skywalker betrayal".

  15. #45
    Astonishing Member batnbreakfast's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,167

    Default

    The problem is there already was the best possible way to restart Batman and it could not have been more perfect. Year One... Dini's TEC at the same time as Morrison Batman. Just go from there to any Batman story

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •