Circe and Queen of Fables vs Umar and Morgan Le Fay

[big_adventure]

I get your feeling on that. I'm not sure about 'equal', myself. But if she's reality warping on a planetary scale, she's at least somewhere in the ballpark, enough that even if she's the 'weak link' on the team, she's not insignificant.

In the scaling in Marvel, I'd put Umar a fair bit above Classic Strange in raw oomph, but worse in technique, creativity, etc., much of that because of her immortal and humongous ego. It's not on the Dorm's level, but it's pretty massive.

As an aside, isn't it interesting that Strange, noted for being a colossal egomaniac prior (and sometimes post) becoming a wizard, has a rogue's gallery consisting almost entirely of foes whose egos are the size of universes?

Back at it, that leaves Umar around Strange's level for effficacity.

I'd put Morgan a bit below that level. Strange would know he's been in a fight if he challenged her directly, but he's going to win the large majority as long as he's not facing extensive one-sided prep. I wouldn't say the same for Umar: Strange is going to win in a comic, but he's never going to do it by just powering through her.

[Sharpandpointies]

In the scaling in Marvel, I'd put Umar a fair bit above Classic Strange in raw oomph, but worse in technique, creativity, etc., much of that because of her immortal and humongous ego. It's not on the Dorm's level, but it's pretty massive.

I'm personally iffy on taking it that far. Umar's power...Strange has taken it to her with considerably more gusto than against Furnace Face. Plus, that was back when he hadn't arrived at his full-on, Sorcerer Supreme level of power.

To note, Clea -- in the Dark Dimension, as its ruler -- is roughly on par with Strange (possibly slightly below) in the Earth dimension, and there seems to be very little gap between Clea and her mother.

I would put Umar only a little above Strange in raw power, and (as you note) below him in technique, breadth of displayed power, etc. Rather than 'a fair bit'. And she's considerably trickier than her brother, which does erase some of Stephen's advantages - she steals power with esoteric spells, uses illusions, etc, rather than just blowing through everything in front of her like a battering ram.

Mileage, it may vary.

As an aside, isn't it interesting that Strange, noted for being a colossal egomaniac prior (and sometimes post) becoming a wizard, has a rogue's gallery consisting almost entirely of foes whose egos are the size of universes?

It's kind of a thing that Marvel sorcerers are afflicted with ego. Like, lots of it. To the point where in the old Classic Marvel RPG, the rules for magic had special rules for magic-using villains. If they actually started to get the upper hand on a player character, they needed to make a 'Gloat Check' (I kid you not) to see if they'd stop kicking all hell out of the player to gloat. At which point the player could do anything secret to try to prepare for something, or escape (though overt attacks would cancel out the gloating) for a certain amount of time, the variance of that time dependent on the power level of the enemy. A novice black mage would perhaps gloat for a few rounds, but Mordo or Dormammu were capable of gloating for 10-20 rounds on end.

ONLY magic villains, mind; this was a special rule for them.

Back at it, that leaves Umar around Strange's level for effficacity.

I'm not going to argue against that. ^_^

[Dark Soul # 7]

To add a couple of notches, Morgan has reality-warped the whole world once, making herself the ruler of all, convincing the Avengers they were her loyal servants, et. al. and only Wonder Man, being energy something or other managed to somehow something something the situation back to normal. Yeah, it was a stupid story.

In regards to this storyline, Morgan did not do this completely under her own power.

She used Scarlet Witch's powers to give herself a connection to the Twilight Sword and used said sword to remake reality, and to keep this new reality in check she kept Scarlet Witch locked up as a kind of anchor for it.

How much of that was her own magic I don't quite remember, but there were more parts than just Morgan doing everything by herself.

[Beadle]

It's kind of a thing that Marvel sorcerers are afflicted with ego. Like, lots of it. To the point where in the old Classic Marvel RPG, the rules for magic had special rules for magic-using villains. If they actually started to get the upper hand on a player character, they needed to make a 'Gloat Check' (I kid you not) to see if they'd stop kicking all hell out of the player to gloat. At which point the player could do anything secret to try to prepare for something, or escape (though overt attacks would cancel out the gloating) for a certain amount of time, the variance of that time dependent on the power level of the enemy. A novice black mage would perhaps gloat for a few rounds, but Mordo or Dormammu were capable of gloating for 10-20 rounds on end.

ONLY magic villains, mind; this was a special rule for them.

Ah, Realms of Magic....

*looks back wistfully*

^_^

[Rightoya]

Circe and Queen of Fables...what kind of top-end feats do they have?

Umar is roughly on the level of Classic Strange, is what I'm getting at. She considers planets to be tissue paper.

The Queen of Fables is a mostly fables/fairy tales-themed reality warper who liked to wreck the Justice League, Circe depends on the exact version, but her absolute top-end would be the Rebirth version from Justice Leauge Dark with the powers of Hecate. Hecate is a multiverse affecting reality warper beyond the Sphere of Gods, her feats involve to put the whole main multiverse of DC into a magical barrier to protect it from the Dark Multiverse, rewriting the base concept of magic, rewriting the Underworld, putting the fear into all the gods together, and other crazy stuff.

I don't think it would be very fair to use that version of Circe though.

[Sharpandpointies]

The Queen of Fables is a mostly fables/fairy tales-themed reality warper who liked to wreck the Justice League, Circe depends on the exact version, but her absolute top-end would be the Rebirth version from Justice Leauge Dark with the powers of Hecate. Hecate is a multiverse affecting reality warper beyond the Sphere of Gods, her feats involve to put the whole main multiverse of DC into a magical barrier to protect it from the Dark Multiverse, rewriting the base concept of magic, rewriting the Underworld, putting the fear into all the gods together, and other crazy stuff.

I don't think it would be very fair to use that version of Circe though.

I have vague memories of this. Short-term power-up? Like, just for that arc?

[Rightoya]

I have vague memories of this. Short-term power-up? Like, just for that arc?

Actually not so short-term anymore(it's still a thing after the Witching Hour arc, and Circe basically like some overpowered lingering threat in the backround of the current Justice League Dark series), you're probably thinking on Witching Hour Wonder Woman who had these powers before Circe and just for that arc. And Circe's connection to Hecate is arguably even a lot older going by DC's new a bit confusing canon, she channeled some of Hecate's powers already in the Post Crisis event War of the Gods.

[Sharpandpointies]

Actually not so short-term anymore(it's still a thing after the Witching Hour arc, and Circe basically like some overpowered lingering threat in the backround of the current Justice League Dark series), you're probably thinking on Witching Hour Wonder Woman who had these powers before Circe and just for that arc. And Circe's connection to Hecate is arguably even a lot older going by DC's new a bit confusing canon, she channeled some of Hecate's powers already in the Post Crisis event War of the Gods.

Okay, so it's a thing she can do then. What has she done with those powers thus far? Because this could turn the whole fight on its head.

[big_adventure]

In regards to this storyline, Morgan did not do this completely under her own power.

She used Scarlet Witch's powers to give herself a connection to the Twilight Sword and used said sword to remake reality, and to keep this new reality in check she kept Scarlet Witch locked up as a kind of anchor for it.

How much of that was her own magic I don't quite remember, but there were more parts than just Morgan doing everything by herself.

All true - but that's generally a magic thing, especially in Marvel. Even Dormammu calls on Cytorrak when he wants to spit out Crimson Bands.

[Dark Soul # 7]

All true - but that's generally a magic thing, especially in Marvel. Even Dormammu calls on Cytorrak when he wants to spit out Crimson Bands.

Very true.

I think that the main point is that Morgan doesn't generally have access to the Twilight Sword or Scarlet Witch, so unless stated otherwise she probably won't be doing any planet wide reality warping in this rumble.

[Sharpandpointies]

All true - but that's generally a magic thing, especially in Marvel. Even Dormammu calls on Cytorrak when he wants to spit out Crimson Bands.

It's actually a little different. It's less like Dormammu -- or anyone else -- calling upon an entity, and more like having a situational power-up through the use (or theft) of another character's powers.

Example: Strange calls upon Dormmamu (he has) to reverse someone's spell versus Strange steals Morgana Blessing's magical power to add to his own (he has, the rotten ****). The first is a normal thing for Strange (and Marvel sorcerers in general). The second is pretty situational.

Regarding the Twilight Sword, again that's different. It's more like Strange calls upon the Eye of Agamotto, in his amulet. It's the use of a magical item, rather than a dimensional entreaty. Strange CAN do this in Rumbles because the Eye is part of his standard equipment.

Surtur may object to Morgana LeFay feeling that the Twilight Sword is part of her own standard equipment... ^_^

Very true.

I think that the main point is that Morgan doesn't generally have access to the Twilight Sword or Scarlet Witch, so unless stated otherwise she probably won't be doing any planet wide reality warping in this rumble.

Pretty much.

[Sophicles]

The Queen of Fables is a mostly fables/fairy tales-themed reality warper who liked to wreck the Justice League, Circe depends on the exact version, but her absolute top-end would be the Rebirth version from Justice Leauge Dark with the powers of Hecate. Hecate is a multiverse affecting reality warper beyond the Sphere of Gods, her feats involve to put the whole main multiverse of DC into a magical barrier to protect it from the Dark Multiverse, rewriting the base concept of magic, rewriting the Underworld, putting the fear into all the gods together, and other crazy stuff.

I don't think it would be very fair to use that version of Circe though.

Let's stick with post-Crisis Circe then.

[Captain Morgan]

So a little flipping through her arc, and the Queen of Fables is pretty potent. Even her random hench people were capable of shutting down most of the powers of the Martian Manhunter and Plastic Man and drag them to their doom, for example.