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  1. #31
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Did Luke spending most of ESB making mistake after mistake take away from his victory in ANH? Look, the one constant in the original trilogy is that Luke was not the perfect hero. Why would we expect things to be different later down the line? Also, ROTJ isn't the end of the story, no more then any of us are finished with character development and backsliding and reclaiming until our own lives are done. (Besides, we saw what the Luke you're talking about looked like in the Legends tie-ins, and it was a stagnant, flat character. TLJ did the right thing in giving him a character arc instead of having him just come in like Superman and get the job done.)
    The first act had Luke cross the threshold to the supernatural world by him using the force to destroy the Death Star in ANH. The second act of the Hero's Journey is about failure and mistakes about facing the darkness inside and out and ESB did a great job in doing that it was forward progression of the character he had to deal with his introduction of this new world both good and the bad. As ROTJ did a great job in rounding off his entire hero's journey as a 3rd act with him rejoining Han and Leia and looking over at the force ghost signifying his mastery of the real world and the supernatural one.

    I'm not saying that Luke should not fail it is the way he failed I don't think that he needs to be "super perfect jedi Luke" just that the choice to kill a kid in his sleep not matter how fleeting the thought was the wrong way to go about creating a flawed and beaten Luke. Luke was willing to die by the Emperor's hands in order to save his father, in a since die than give over to his instinct. It is a back track in character development to retread over this ground.

    Eh, not so much:

    I saw darkness. I'd sensed it building in him. I'd see it at moments during his training. But then I looked inside... and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction, and pain, and death... and the end of everything I love because of what he will become. And for the briefest moment of pure instinct... I thought I could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow. And I was left with shame... and with consequence. And the last thing I saw... were the eyes of a frightened boy whose master had failed him.".
    He watched and sensed it building up over time knowing it was happening and by the time it seemed like it had grown too big his first instinct even for the briefest moment was to kill him while he was sleeping to make it stop? I'm sorry but it just seems odd and out of place. There were so many other ways to make Luke flawed and for him to fail than this. I understand and what Johnson was trying to do here and if Ben were not laying in bed sleeping when this instinct came over Luke it would be easier to swallow.

    To me when force projection Luke confronted Ren and basically said I'm not here to save you it was a huge development in his character in that you can't save them all. Just wished that he would have some where tried to save Ben in the story line and failed as opposed to the was thinking about killing him for a moment and that made me feel bad.

    Luke's whole story arc is refuting the "let the past die" idea and that is pretty explicitly telegraphed; from his starting the movie saying the Jedi need to end to ending the movie stating that the line will continue after him.
    I'm not refuting that in the end he had a change of heart. I really like that part of the story. What I'm saying is that in story that has 4 arcs going on at the same time Luke's revelation was lost in the shuffle. It was not that telegraphed if a good number of people walked away from the film thinking that "let the past die" and "to acknowledge the past and its mistakes but don't let it control the future" as being some what on the same path. Even Yoda striking the Jedi Tree Library feeds the "let it die, kill it if you have to" narrative. Yes we know that in the end the books were gone and from his dialogue he knew it too. But the reveal of the books being in the Milenium Falcon at the end was done so subtle that some people missed it (I know because I have to point it out to some). So for people that don't watch the movie over its easy to miss things.

    Again Luke's comeback from the dark place that he shut him self off in is the best part of TLJ, I just I really don't agree with the concept that was created to get him to his low point.


    I think TROS did a pretty darn good job showing that bloodlines weren't that big a deal period. That's kinda the main message of the film.
    And I agree, I think it is a strong contrast from Luke's "I'm a Jedi like my father before me" (Though Anakin was a terrible Jedi and I would not want to be like him). My point was that if not for JJ's "who is she" approach to Rey the idea of bloodlines being an obsession in the movies was not there before there for Johnson's "she is a nobody" was not a direct hit on it.
    Last edited by Moon Ronin; 01-22-2020 at 03:56 PM.
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  2. #32
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Weapon View Post
    Now they know how it feels to b on the other side. They celebrate when TLJ wiped it's ass with everything that came before it. Now that it's happened to the movie they liked they crying foul. Can't help but point and laugh at the hypocrisy.
    It really ironic that the same people who said that the idea that TLJ had no political agenda are now mad that "TROS moments that undermine TLJ’s commitment to diversity". The WP added a link to back this claim up but no where in the Forbes article that they linked said anything about diversity(the guy who actual wrote the Forbes article says that TROS may be the best one of the new trilogy which doesn't really back up the WP view here). All of this despite the fact the three mains are a woman, a black man, and a Hispanic man but ''TROS invites the perception that it is made with conservative, white and male audiences in mind." according to this WP article. And it really has noting to do with an actual criticism of the story it's self but that "TROS’s politics will not have a comparable platform as TLJ did". This whole thing is just the other side of the coin of what the Morons at “The Fandom Menace” that hate all of the Disney Star Wars movies and who cry about the social politics in every single one of the movies. Just like those ass hats this whole article is crying about the politics of the movie and not the content. Hell it is even under the Politics heading of the web site and not "arts & entertainment".

    Can we just enjoy or dislike a movie please?
    Last edited by Moon Ronin; 01-22-2020 at 03:04 PM.
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  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    It really ironic that the same people who said that the idea that TLJ had no political agenda are now mad that "TROS moments that undermine TLJ’s commitment to diversity". The WP added a link to back this claim up but no where in the Forbes article that they linked said anything about diversity(the guy who actual wrote the Forbes article says that TROS may be the best one of the new trilogy which doesn't really back up the WP view here). All of this despite the fact the three mains are a woman, a black man, and a Hispanic man but ''TROS invites the perception that it is made with conservative, white and male audiences in mind." according to this WP article. And it really has noting to do with an actual criticism of the story it's self but that "TROS’s politics will not have a comparable platform as TLJ did". This whole thing is just the other side of the coin of what the Morons at “The Fandom Menace” that hate all of the Disney Star Wars movies and who cry about the social politics in every single one of the movies. Just like those ass hats this whole article is crying about the politics of the movie and not the content. Hell it is even under the Politics heading of the web site and not "arts & entertainment".

    Can we just enjoy or dislike a movie please?
    Real journalism died a long time ago. Now adays it's all sensationalism to drive up sales. Hypocrisy has been part of it for a long time.

  4. #34
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Did Luke spending most of ESB making mistake after mistake take away from his victory in ANH?
    Luke underwent failure in that movie but his failure was because he wanted to do the right thing, he wanted to help his friends, and he genuinely did the best he could. Not because he gave up, which is how it was in TLJ. Luke did the essential thing right in ESB. When Vader offered him to join the dark side, Luke chose to jump instead. He didn't get corrupted by the dark side which is what Yoda and Obi-Wan feared. There's a difference between, feeling, "so desperately that you're right, yet to fail nonetheless" (Thanos, IW), and raising a sword to whack your nephew out of a vision.

    Look, the one constant in the original trilogy is that Luke was not the perfect her.
    Luke was a noble and ideal hero who would never give in to the dark side and never give up even when he faced failure or setbacks. Luke trying his best and Kylo turning bad would have been acceptable, Kylo being triggered because Luke raised a sword over him is not, nor is Luke hiding in the wild abandoning Leia and Han out of shame, denying them the truth about what turned their son, and not facing the consequences of his actions.

    Why would we expect things to be different later down the line?
    Because when a character in a story goes from point A to point B and point C...it's not rational to expect a sequel to go Point Z and justify it by saying "But but Point B remember that, remember how that was the darkest and kewlest". And then the movie ends by having people go, "Wow Luke is the coolest, so nice we don't get to remember the really dark turn this movie took in the middle act".

    Also, ROTJ isn't the end of the story, no more then any of us are finished with character development and backsliding and reclaiming until our own lives are done.
    At the end of ROTJ, Luke proved them Yoda and Obi-Wan wrong when he redeemed Vader even when they thought all was lost. He knew first hand that the teachings of the Jedi needed reform, and he had a free hand in going about that. For Luke to recreate the Jedi Order more or less the same way in the PT (as his dialogue claims in TLJ) is not in character with his conclusion at the end of ROTJ. I mean did Luke decide after Vader sacrificed his life to save Palpatine and he then cremated his Dad, did he just go, "Maybe Obi-Wan and Yoda were right about Vader not being redeemable after all". That makes no sense. Luke's ranting about the Jedi in TLJ is a sop to prequel haters and nothing more. On a character level, it doesn't make sense. Because Luke proved Obi-Wan and Yoda wrong at the end of ROTJ. If anything it comes off as really disrespectful and mean because Yoda and Obi-Wan would absolutely not done what Luke did, and raise a sword over Ben Solo.

    (Besides, we saw what the Luke you're talking about looked like in the Legends tie-ins, and it was a stagnant, flat character. TLJ did the right thing in giving him a character arc instead of having him just come in like Superman and get the job done.)
    The other extreme being bad doesn't justify the extreme that goes so far in the opposite direction. The boring traditional Superman doesn't justify Zack Snyder's Superman after all.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Luke underwent failure in that movie but his failure was because he wanted to do the right thing, he wanted to help his friends, and he genuinely did the best he could. Not because he gave up, which is how it was in TLJ. Luke did the essential thing right in ESB. When Vader offered him to join the dark side, Luke chose to jump instead. He didn't get corrupted by the dark side which is what Yoda and Obi-Wan feared. There's a difference between, feeling, "so desperately that you're right, yet to fail nonetheless" (Thanos, IW), and raising a sword to whack your nephew out of a vision.
    In TLJ, Luke thought he was trying to prevent the rise of another Darth Vader. He was right about what Ren turned out to be, it was his approach that was wrong. And he didn’t get corrupted by the dark side in that movie either because, again, he didn’t kill Ben . You and everyone else who complains about Luke in that movie really don’t want to acknowledge that.



    Luke was a noble and ideal hero who would never give in to the dark side and never give up even when he faced failure or setbacks. Luke trying his best and Kylo turning bad would have been acceptable, Kylo being triggered because Luke raised a sword over him is not, nor is Luke hiding in the wild abandoning Leia and Han out of shame, denying them the truth about what turned their son, and not facing the consequences of his actions.
    Why is the blame being placed squarely on Luke’s shoulders and not on the guy who joined a neo-fascist organization and murdered his own father?





    At the end of ROTJ, Luke proved them Yoda and Obi-Wan wrong when he redeemed Vader even when they thought all was lost. He knew first hand that the teachings of the Jedi needed reform, and he had a free hand in going about that. For Luke to recreate the Jedi Order more or less the same way in the PT (as his dialogue claims in TLJ) is not in character with his conclusion at the end of ROTJ.
    Luke bought into his own legend and failed to see he was making a mistake until the last moment. Again, the guy has never been the perfect hero fans want him to be.


    If anything it comes off as really disrespectful and mean because Yoda and Obi-Wan would absolutely not done what Luke did, and raise a sword over Ben Solo.
    You have a rather idealized image of the two guys who lied to Luke about who his father was to get him to kill Vader. At least Luke was remorseful when his secret got out.


    The other extreme being bad doesn't justify the extreme that goes so far in the opposite direction. The boring traditional Superman doesn't justify Zack Snyder's Superman after all.
    The way fans reacted to TLJ is not unlike how fans reacted to MoS. Particularly, in how both Luke and Clark got demonized by fans to the point of ignoring the villains’ actions. “Luke triggered Kylo Ren to the dark side” is every bit as absurd as “Superman destroyed Metropolis”. In both cases, you’ve got fans who have an idealized image of a character who was never the perfect and pure paragon they thought he was going nuts when that image is torn down.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    I think the reason Rose didn't work was....

    3. Rian couldn't find the right balance between movie star Kelly Marie Tran and mechanic Rose Tico and went too far towards the latter. Now before everyone flips out keep in mind that Rey was a scavenger but was still very much Daisy Ridley playing a scavenger
    So people were mad at Rose because they couldn't fap to her?

  7. #37
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    He was right about what Ren turned out to be,
    At that time Ben Solo didn't do anything. You can't judge someone about who they might become. TROS shows that Ben Solo did have good in him, and that he redeemed himself in the end, so that meant that Luke Skywalker failing to reach to Ben and instead raising a sword out of fears he would become did turn Ben into Kylo. Among the many things that TROS does is make Luke's actions even more inexcusable. Because had Ben died unredeemed, at least then you could say, "Maybe Luke had the right idea", now you can't.

    it was his approach that was wrong.
    His approach was "try and kill his nephew". That's not wrong, that's criminal. Imagine if Luke did kill Ben Solo in that moment. He would then go around saying, "I had to kill Ben Solo because I had a vision he would go evil and my Jedi religion told me to kill my own nephew". You do know what that would make Luke sound like, don't you, like any Jim Jones cultist or fundamentalist who goes postal and kills people because "God told them to".

    he didn’t kill Ben
    When you raise a sword over a kid, and that kid sees you poised to strike...all those excuses fly away. There's no way to take that back. "Look, nephew, I did think about killing you but I didn't in the end, right? Right!"

    Why is the blame being placed squarely on Luke’s shoulders
    1) Experienced Jedi Knight. 2) Knew the kid from childhood. 3) Deprogrammed Vader from Dark to Light.

    Luke can still fail and still be wrong, but raising a sword over a kid before Ben did anything is unforgivable on his part.

    Luke bought into his own legend
    Which we never see or get a sense of. I mean Luke's problems in the OT weren't arrogance or being obsessed with fame after all. This is what I mean with the movie going to "Point Z" and justifiying it via "Point B" but skipping all the points between. To paraphrase Han Solo in TFA, "That's not how characterization works".

    Again, the guy has never been the perfect hero fans want him to be.
    Things don't have to be extreme. There's a line between "perfect" and "Luke becoming a nephew-killing religious nut after all". That middle-area is quite flexible. Stuff like Luke complaining about Tosche Station and getting the power convertors and so on.

    You have a rather idealized image of the two guys who lied to Luke about who his father was to get him to kill Vader.
    Two guys who despite all their problems and issues with Anakin's rage issues and general attitude never decided to get together and slice him in his sleep. Did Obi-Wan and Yoda fail Anakin? Yes. Did they make mistakes? Yes. But ultimate agency still rested with Anakin when he turned to the Dark Side. All Obi-Wan and Yoda did was make it harder for Anakin to be a Jedi, but it was still Anakin who made the ultimate choice. Both Obi-Wan and Yoda preached and practiced what a Jedi should do and lived an ideal without accounting for all the people who couldn't live up to it.

    Whereas Luke was like, cut my nephew into pieces, this is my first resort.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    At that time Ben Solo didn't do anything. You can't judge someone about who they might become. TROS shows that Ben Solo did have good in him, and that he redeemed himself in the end, so that meant that Luke Skywalker failing to reach to Ben and instead raising a sword out of fears he would become did turn Ben into Kylo.
    I thought it was Palpatine’s fault for brainwashing Ren. TROS was blatantly pandering to anyone who wanted to absolve Ren of any wrongdoing on his part.

    His approach was "try and kill his nephew". That's not wrong, that's criminal. Imagine if Luke did kill Ben Solo in that moment. He would then go around saying, "I had to kill Ben Solo because I had a vision he would go evil and my Jedi religion told me to kill my own nephew". You do know what that would make Luke sound like, don't you, like any Jim Jones cultist or fundamentalist who goes postal and kills people because "God told them to".
    Again, he didn’t try and kill Ren. You seem really hellbent on ignoring this very important detail as if it excuses everything else Ren did. How many people do you know join a fascist organization just because someone else contemplated killing them and then decided not to go through with it? No matter how bad Luke’s actions are, nothing Ren did afterwards is remotely justified.


    When you raise a sword over a kid, and that kid sees you poised to strike...all those excuses fly away. There's no way to take that back. "Look, nephew, I did think about killing you but I didn't in the end, right? Right!"
    And when that kid goes on to become Space Voldemort 2.0, the actions of the person he’s mad at are of no consequence.


    1) Experienced Jedi Knight.
    So were Obi-Wan and Yoda. They still didn’t stop Anakin’s fall and Luke had far less experience as a Jedi than they did.

    2) Knew the kid from childhood.
    See above.



    3) Deprogrammed Vader from Dark to Light.
    Vader’s so called redemption was a fluke that relied on a number of lucky factors and could just as easily have failed. Luke didn’t even have an actual plan for how to bring him back to the light and Rey found out the hard way that this action was not so easily replicated.

    Luke can still fail and still be wrong, but raising a sword over a kid before Ben did anything is unforgivable on his part.
    It would have been unforgivable if he actually went through with killing him.


    Which we never see or get a sense of. I mean Luke's problems in the OT weren't arrogance or being obsessed with fame after all. This is what I mean with the movie going to "Point Z" and justifiying it via "Point B" but skipping all the points between. To paraphrase Han Solo in TFA, "That's not how characterization works".
    Says who?


    Things don't have to be extreme. There's a line between "perfect" and "Luke becoming a nephew-killing religious nut after all". That middle-area is quite flexible. Stuff like Luke complaining about Tosche Station and getting the power convertors and so on.
    Please show me the scene in TLJ of Luke actually killing his nephew.



    Two guys who despite all their problems and issues with Anakin's rage issues and general attitude never decided to get together and slice him in his sleep. Did Obi-Wan and Yoda fail Anakin? Yes. Did they make mistakes? Yes. But ultimate agency still rested with Anakin when he turned to the Dark Side.
    And ultimate agency rests with Ren. Or at least it did until TROS backpedaled to make his joke of a “redemption” easier to sell.

    All Obi-Wan and Yoda did was make it harder for Anakin to be a Jedi, but it was still Anakin who made the ultimate choice. Both Obi-Wan and Yoda preached and practiced what a Jedi should do and lived an ideal without accounting for all the people who couldn't live up to it.
    The entire point of the prequel trilogy was that the Jedi weren’t practicing what they preached. In the original trilogy, Obi and Yoda still weren’t practicing what they preached.
    Oh and if people are still blaming Luke for hiding out on a planet from the rest of the galaxy, I’d like to point out that Yoda and Obi-Wan did nothing for decades while the Empire ripped the galaxy apart and only started training Luke when he was barely out of his teens. Yoda wasn’t even on the same planet as Luke.

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    In TLJ, Luke thought he was trying to prevent the rise of another Darth Vader. He was right about what Ren turned out to be, it was his approach that was wrong. And he didn’t get corrupted by the dark side in that movie either because, again, he didn’t kill Ben . You and everyone else who complains about Luke in that movie really don’t want to acknowledge that.




    Why is the blame being placed squarely on Luke’s shoulders and not on the guy who joined a neo-fascist organization and murdered his own father?






    Luke bought into his own legend and failed to see he was making a mistake until the last moment. Again, the guy has never been the perfect hero fans want him to be.



    You have a rather idealized image of the two guys who lied to Luke about who his father was to get him to kill Vader. At least Luke was remorseful when his secret got out.



    The way fans reacted to TLJ is not unlike how fans reacted to MoS. Particularly, in how both Luke and Clark got demonized by fans to the point of ignoring the villains’ actions. “Luke triggered Kylo Ren to the dark side” is every bit as absurd as “Superman destroyed Metropolis”. In both cases, you’ve got fans who have an idealized image of a character who was never the perfect and pure paragon they thought he was going nuts when that image is torn down.
    Wow there is a lot wrong there. Luke did push Ben to the dark side. His reasoinng for his actions are quite frankly excuses. It really showed Luke as a very bad person. While I never got that criticism for MOS I can clearly see it here. Kylo's own actions do NOT excuse Luke's.

    Rey even calls him out on his reasons being excuses and she's right. What Luke did was the equivalent of pulling a gun on someone with a drug problem. If Leia ever got the full story I don't think thier reunion would be as heartwarming.

  10. #40
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Again, he didn’t try and kill Ren.
    He ignited his lightsaber and raised it above him. That definitely qualifies as "try".

    And when that kid goes on to become Space Voldemort 2.0
    Ben/Kylo is Space Snape, truth be told.

    Oh and if people are still blaming Luke for hiding out on a planet from the rest of the galaxy, I’d like to point out that Yoda and Obi-Wan did nothing...
    The minute the Jedi learn Palpatine was the Sith Lord,
    1) Mace Windu led a band of Padawan to directly attack him in his chambers. They failed because Anakin turned on Mace Windu.
    2) When Order 66 happens, both Obi-Wan and Yoda survive, and immediately investigate what happens.
    3) Yoda heads out and battles Palpatine mano-e-mano, fights to a draw and ultimately has to flee when reinforcements arrive and Palpatine makes himself out of reach.
    4) Obi-Wan heads to Mustafar and defeats Darth Vader in battle at the height of his powers and leaves him crippled with burns, and severely weakened.
    5) Obi-Wan and Yoda then meet Bail Organa and form the first plans for what ultimately becomes the Rebel Alliance, deciding on the childhood and futures of Luke and Leia in particular.
    6) Obi-Wan hides out his days on Tatooine remaining in contact with the Resistance, and accessible to them, or at least the ones on the upper command.

    This was all done by Yoda and Obi-Wan in the first 6 Star Wars movies.

    That's way more than what Luke did. People who say "they did nothing" simply did not watch these movies closely and are basing their memories on the opinions of other fans rather than their own eyes.

    Quote Originally Posted by MASTER-OF-SUPRISE View Post
    Kylo's own actions do NOT excuse Luke's.
    Agreed.

    Rey even calls him out on his reasons being excuses and she's right.
    Luke lied about it.

    What Luke did was the equivalent of pulling a gun on someone with a drug problem.
    Or you know acting because of the voices in their head and doing it because "god told me to".

    If Leia ever got the full story I don't think thier reunion would be as heartwarming.
    If the full story got out, those kids playing with toys wouldn't have worked.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 01-23-2020 at 07:04 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    He ignited his lightsaber and raised it above him. That definitely qualifies as "try".
    And then he deactivated it when he realized what he was about to do.


    Ben/Kylo is Space Snape, truth be told.
    Zero difference. Either way, he’s still scum.


    Or you know acting because of the voices in their head and doing it because "god told me to".
    Funny, that excuse seemed to work pretty well for Ren. And Luke ultimately chose NOT to listen to the voice in his head unlike his asshole nephew.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    And then he deactivated it when he realized what he was about to do.
    That's still way too far. And it's absolutely not established at any point before that Luke would go this far. There needs to be extra backstory justifying and explaining how Luke became more rigid about his beliefs about the Jedi, light side, and dark side. Because the expectation was that that the sequel trilogy would pick up with the characters left off at the end of ROTJ. Harrison Ford's Han Solo in TFA as well as Carrie Fisher in TFA and TLJ are consistent to who they were at the end of Episode VI, so people had a right to expect the same with Luke.

    Either way, he’s still scum.
    I agree that Snape's scum, but at the end of the day people don't think James Potter was right to bully him simply because of who Snape turned out to be later on, right?

    Funny, that excuse seemed to work pretty well for Ren.
    Kylo is not the one on trial in this sub-discussion. Luke is. The issue of Kylo's redemption and so on, and for that matter Vader's redemption is a separate topic entirely.

  13. #43
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    I think that having both Ren's and Luke's version if what happened kind of helps. I really think that what Ren tells Rey and how it is shown is how he saw it, I think that every thing that he says to Rey is more shades of truth in TLJ. No Luke didn't kill him but it is a very true argument that he was going to and even ignited his light saber to do so before coming to reason. No Luke didn't "turn" Ben to the dark side but he did seem to give him a little push to that doorway.

    I really disliked both Finn and Poe's story line and Rey's seemed to be over shadowed by Luke's and even Kilo Ren's. Luke's was possibly the best one out of it but I think that his failure to been and reason that he push himself in to exile was wrong. I have no issue with how the Jedi order was characterized by Luke as failures or that Luke was a self defeated get off my lawn old man because he could not keep up with the myth and legend of "Luke Skywalker Jedi Knight". The issue I have is that he went into a sleeping boys room to probe his mind and from what he saw his very first thought was to kill him.

    After watching the entire new trilogy in order for the second time I am disappointed in one thing. The Galaxy is in the same place that it was at the end of Return of the Jedi. We have Palpatine defeated the bad guy side kick that is of the Skywalker bloodline redeemed and with a self sacrifice. And we have one Jedi left a "Skywalker" no less to rebuild the Jedi order. A new galactic government to be established. The other to trilogies ended with the galaxy in a different place than where it started this one seemed to go around in a circle back to the end of the story before it. Don't misunderstand I like this trilogy for the most part just wish that it would have ended with something new.
    Last edited by Moon Ronin; 01-23-2020 at 10:44 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    That's still way too far. And it's absolutely not established at any point before that Luke would go this far. There needs to be extra backstory justifying and explaining how Luke became more rigid about his beliefs about the Jedi, light side, and dark side. Because the expectation was that that the sequel trilogy would pick up with the characters left off at the end of ROTJ. Harrison Ford's Han Solo in TFA as well as Carrie Fisher in TFA and TLJ are consistent to who they were at the end of Episode VI, so people had a right to expect the same with Luke.
    There indeed has been. In fact in a moment of darkness he's done much worse. On Death Star II he briefly let in the dark side and beat down his father so ferociously that he sliced off his hand. It was the symbolism of that act which snapped him back to reality and the light and made him relent or he might have killed Vader then and there. Regardless of the fact he was fighting someone whom was at the time evil, his offensive flurry on Vader was a confirmed dark side moment. Plus its widely been established that the dark side is a consistent and constant threat to any Jedi, regardless of their age, status, or whatever. It always has to be kept at bay for life. There is no period in which it just stops being a threat to any one Jedi. No further justification or backstory is required for Luke having a momentary brush with the dark again. Especially since, per usual, he rejects it. It was a split-second thing, just unfortunately Ben saw that split second.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 01-23-2020 at 11:51 AM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    There indeed has been.
    No there has not.

    In fact in a moment of darkness he's done much worse.
    No he has not.

    On Death Star II he briefly let in the dark side and beat down his father so ferociously that he sliced off his hand.
    Obi-Wan and Yoda told him that he had to kill his father. So when Luke is beating down on Vader, it's not the "dark side" which led him there.

    Regardless of the fact he was fighting someone whom was at the time evil,
    Glad that we agree that a Vader who had killed people and betrayed many does not have the same value as Ben Solo who had not done anything at that time.

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