Washington Post really liked The Last Jedi And wants you to know it.

[Anthony W]

Yikes. https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...tart-trolling/

TROS invites the perception that it is made with conservative, white and male audiences in mind. After suggesting that there would be a same-sex relationship in TROS, filmmakers included two women kissing in the background of a scene — a moment easily censored for overseas markets. TROS nearly eliminates the character Rose Tico, played by Asian American actress Kelly Marie Tran, who was the focal point for right-wing hate after her large role in TLJ.

So much to unpack in this article.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

So this is how film criticism dies, with hollow platitudes

[Moon Ronin]

So this is how film criticism dies, with hollow platitudes

I think its funny that if you didn't like TLJ you are a "right-wing troll". I know many people that are far from right wing and did not like that movie.

[Anthony W]

I think its funny that if you didn't like TLJ you are a "right-wing troll". I know many people that are far from right wing and did not like that movie.

I guess many critics feel betrayed because they spent so much time defending TLJ only for JJ to do a complete reversal. I could have sworn I saw the movies in this trilogy getting into a fist fight at a Waffle House

[motherofpearl1]

I think its funny that if you didn't like TLJ you are a "right-wing troll". I know many people that are far from right wing and did not like that movie.

I think they're referring to a group of bigots who hounded Kelly Marie Tran so horribly she closed her Instagram account.

[sunofdarkchild]

There were also plenty of people who are right-wing and also liked Last Jedi. Heck, I lean right and I like Last Jedi best of the trilogy and consider Rise of Skywalker to be a terrible movie.

[Moon Ronin]

I guess many critics feel betrayed because they spent so much time defending TLJ only for JJ to do a complete reversal. I could have sworn I saw the movies in this trilogy getting into a fist fight at a Waffle House

It's like it never crossed their mind in the whole article that maybe Abrams and Johnson had different ideas of where the trilogy was going. Its odd when Johnson was asked when he did add things like the Knights of Ren or a shot of R2-D2 and C3PO together (all of the others movies have this one) and so on. He just says there was not room in them for "his" movie. He even had to back track because there was no "I have a bad feeling about this" in his movie as something BB-8 said. But when Abrams puts Rose to a minor roll because there is not enough room in "his" movie it is an outrage. I don't think that JJ wrote TROS in the way he did to quell the "conservative fans"

I think they're referring to a group of bigots who hounded Kelly Marie Tran so horribly she closed her Instagram account.

I don't think a bunch of tweets and 5 guys on YouTube made Lucas Film course change on what was going to be in the next film. This whole thing for the Washington Post is saying that "right wing" hate ruined Star Wars by steering the course of TROS away from where TLJ was going which is laughable. The TLJ was going nowhere anyway, it was on huge circle of misdirection.

[motherofpearl1]

It's like it never crossed their mind in the whole article that maybe Abrams and Johnson had different ideas of where the trilogy was going. Its odd when Johnson was asked when he did add things like the Knights of Ren or a shot of R2-D2 and C3PO together (all of the others movies have this one) and so on. He just says there was not room in them for "his" movie. He even had to back track because there was no "I have a bad feeling about this" in his movie as something BB-8 said. But when Abrams puts Rose to a minor roll because there is not enough room in "his" movie it is an outrage. I don't think that JJ wrote TROS in the way he did to quell the "conservative fans"



I don't think a bunch of tweets and 5 guys on YouTube made Lucas Film course change on what was going to be in the next film. This whole thing for the Washington Post is saying that "right wing" hate ruined Star Wars by steering the course of TROS away from where TLJ was going which is laughable. The TLJ was going nowhere anyway, it was on huge circle of misdirection.

I think it was more than five guys on YouTube.
And whether you love or hate TROS, the way Kelly Marie Tran was treated was diabolical. She went from a major character into a bit part.

[MASTER-OF-SUPRISE]

Typical political BS. I will say Kelly Marie Tran got screwed. However this is clear sensationalism. I highly doubt the bigots make even 1 percent of people who dislike TLJ. Honestly this has been going on for awhile on both wings of political parties. TLJ is just one of the films political parties over analyze to demonize the other.

Fun fact you can make a drinking game out of the sensationalism by the amount of quotes they take out of context. I’m looking at you syfy wire and Forbes.

[Moon Ronin]

I think it was more than five guys on YouTube.
And whether you love or hate TROS, the way Kelly Marie Tran was treated was diabolical. She went from a major character into a bit part.

I was referring to the Fandom Menace which is a relatively small group of people on YouTube that make angry videos for clicks and views, they also hated TFA by the way it wasn't just TLJ but the Washington Post doesn't mention that and they are not all that happy with TROS. So really using them in their argument does not prove the point they are trying to make.

I really like Gwendoline Christie and think what was done to her in TLJ and was not brought back for TROS was wrong. Captain Phasma had the potential of being one of the biggest driving points of Finn's development. In truth Rose takes more of the focus off of him. I don't think it was diabolical at all it was a choice to help put the focus more to Finn.


There is not much relationship between the three (Finn, Poe and Rey). Rey seriously does not meet Poe until the end of TLJ, Finn does absolutely nothing with Rey in TLJ, Poe and Finn don't go adventuring together he takes Rose with him. At one point in the trilogy there had to be some kind of onscreen relationship development so Rose would have been the 5th wheel in this.

[Anthony W]

I think the reason Rose didn't work was....

1. She is linked to Canto Bight, and no one likes Canto Bight.

2. She got in the way of Finn's sacrifice.

3. Rian couldn't find the right balance between movie star Kelly Marie Tran and mechanic Rose Tico and went too far towards the latter. Now before everyone flips out keep in mind that Rey was a scavenger but was still very much Daisy Ridley playing a scavenger

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I never understood what critics saw in TLJ. I have tried seeing into the movie what they want and it's very "Emperor has no clothes", or "Supreme Leader Snoke has no clothes". I think the reason why people liked TLJ is that it's a movie that panders to critics to Star Wars movies, and the backlash seemingly confirmed and reinforced that in the sense of "the right sort of people disliked it" or "seemed to be the loudest voices that disliked it". TLJ is the ultimate example of the bizarre fixation on "Empire Strikes Back" among Star Wars fans, as the supposedly darkest movie. It's what happens when people say that, repeat that, and drone on and on about it, constantly putting film-makers under pressure to make the "ESB in their mind" than be true to the actual values of The Empire Strikes Back People either have forgotten, or ignorant, about the fact that ESB is the only SW movie without any character deaths. The reason for ESB's greatness is that Irving Kershner executed George Lucas' story and vision very competently, and brought it in. He was doing a second part, and the aim was to do a deep dive into the established characters, and add in a few characters who helped explicitly with that. TLJ on the other hand adds in extra characters (like Holdo, Rose Tico) that have huge chunks of screentime without actually being tied to or explaining any of the established characters. Whereas in ESB, the two new characters (Yoda, Lando) explored and deepeened the characters of Vader, Obi-Wan, Luke, and Han Solo. So TLJ is absolutely not the ESB of our time, it's a total violation of the spirit of that movie.

It's a decent production, entertaining on a single viewing when you go in cold, but it's not an especially innovative movie, nor is it visually very interesting. Like all Disney movies, it uses the "house style" of the OT i.e. make the galaxy look just like the OT did even if three decades of Post-Imperial rule have passed and there should be a major aesthetic and stylistic shift.

In so far as its themes go, it borders on the incoherent. There's almost nothing the movie seems to really believe or hold conviction in. It's main theme is "let the past die" but you can't use the second installment of a sequel spinoff movie produced by Disney to make that claim. It spends an entire movie demolishing Luke Skywalker and then in the finale has him played as a hero by small children in a way that's not ironic at all. Making Rey a "nobody" even if she doesn't have the backstory some fan theories wanted/preferred robs her of a major character arc in what should have been the movie that went deep dive into her character.

I am in a minority among TLJ-skeptics for actually liking Canto Bight and to me rather than a ridiculously prolonged chase scene...a good chunk of the rebel story should have centered around Canto Bight and the finale and climax should have taken place there rather than this new planet of Crait which was introduced so late into the story. In the same way that Cloud City was the location for the entire final act of ESB. The entire story of Canto Bight as backing both rebels and first order would have worked as a good and new interesting plot, and the entire back-and-forth drama of whose side it will take, and so on could have been the actual plot.

[WebLurker]

I think they're referring to a group of bigots who hounded Kelly Marie Tran so horribly she closed her Instagram account.

Yep, among other things.

I never understood what critics saw in TLJ. I have tried seeing into the movie what they want and it's very "Emperor has no clothes", or "Supreme Leader Snoke has no clothes". I think the reason why people liked TLJ is that it's a movie that panders to critics to Star Wars movies, and the backlash seemingly confirmed and reinforced that in the sense of "the right sort of people disliked it" or "seemed to be the loudest voices that disliked it".

Dunno, I liked it a lot and I'm not a critic of the franchise, kinda the opposite, in fact. As far as any "backlash" goes, I don't really care about people not liking it, so long as things stay civil. I don't like people using their "criticism" of the movie as a smokescreen for toxicity and bigotry, but that's something different.

TLJ is the ultimate example of the bizarre fixation on "Empire Strikes Back" among Star Wars fans, as the supposedly darkest movie. It's what happens when people say that, repeat that, and drone on and on about it, constantly putting film-makers under pressure to make the "ESB in their mind" than be true to the actual values of The Empire Strikes Back People either have forgotten, or ignorant, about the fact that ESB is the only SW movie without any character deaths.

ESB is the darkest movie of the OT (the good guys loose at the beginning and spend the rest of the movie trying to escape, Vader is revealed to be Luke's father, Luke -- the hero -- spends most of the movie getting everything wrong and pays an awful price for it before the end, Vader kills underlings who fail him (sometimes as black comedy). Now, I don't think that it being the darkest is why it's a candidate for best of the series, but it does it well.

The reason for ESB's greatness is that Irving Kershner executed George Lucas' story and vision very competently, and brought it in. He was doing a second part, and the aim was to do a deep dive into the established characters, and add in a few characters who helped explicitly with that. TLJ on the other hand adds in extra characters (like Holdo, Rose Tico) that have huge chunks of screentime without actually being tied to or explaining any of the established characters. Whereas in ESB, the two new characters (Yoda, Lando) explored and deepeened the characters of Vader, Obi-Wan, Luke, and Han Solo.

Except they are, Rose guiding Finn through his story arc, while Holdo is a key player in Poe's story. That's what Lando and Yoda did in ESB.

So TLJ is absolutely not the ESB of our time, it's a total violation of the spirit of that movie.

You say it cannot be this generation's ESB. I ask how, how can it not be that? Far from being a "total violation of the spirit" of the original, as noted above, TLJ does its own riff on the very things you said ESB did. It's thoughtfully-made and filmed, with a huge focus on the characters. Sounds about right to me.

It's a decent production, entertaining on a single viewing when you go in cold, but it's not an especially innovative movie, nor is it visually very interesting.

Funny, I found it to be best in the visuals since Lucas was doing it. As far as innovative, what do we mean by that in this context?

Like all Disney movies, it uses the "house style" of the OT i.e. make the galaxy look just like the OT did even if three decades of Post-Imperial rule have passed and there should be a major aesthetic and stylistic shift.

You mean like how Canto Bight was given its own style, we see new walkers that are a generation forward (just like how the Clone Wars tech in the prequels looked like a variation of the originals stuff from a prior timeline). Face it, across the three trilogies, stuff has never looked that radically different.

In so far as its themes go, it borders on the incoherent. There's almost nothing the movie seems to really believe or hold conviction in. It's main theme is "let the past die" but you can't use the second installment of a sequel spinoff movie produced by Disney to make that claim.

No, it's main theme is "learning from failure." Pretty much everything in the bulk of everything fits that lens.

It spends an entire movie demolishing Luke Skywalker and then in the finale has him played as a hero by small children in a way that's not ironic at all.

Funny thing is, most of the sins we see here built off of stuff we saw in the original trilogy (weird how people had a problem with him considering killing Kylo after seeing a glimpse of the future after he came close to doing the same kind of thing in ROTJ -- and not even realizing the sin until far later). The whole point is the "learning from failure" motif; the ending is Luke coming back from his failures, doing what was needed of him, and earning the legend that had been built around him.

Making Rey a "nobody" even if she doesn't have the backstory some fan theories wanted/preferred robs her of a major character arc in what should have been the movie that went deep dive into her character.

A.) I don't think that was her main story arc for this movie and B.) TROS retconned it, anyways, so it's not like it really counts anymore.

I am in a minority among TLJ-skeptics for actually liking Canto Bight and to me rather than a ridiculously prolonged chase scene...a good chunk of the rebel story should have centered around Canto Bight and the finale and climax should have taken place there rather than this new planet of Crait which was introduced so late into the story. In the same way that Cloud City was the location for the entire final act of ESB. The entire story of Canto Bight as backing both rebels and first order would have worked as a good and new interesting plot, and the entire back-and-forth drama of whose side it will take, and so on could have been the actual plot.

Maybe, maybe not.

[MASTER-OF-SUPRISE]

[/QUOTE=WebLurker;4793432]Funny thing is, most of the sins we see here built off of stuff we saw in the original trilogy (weird how people had a problem with him considering killing Kylo after seeing a glimpse of the future after he came close to doing the same kind of thing in ROTJ -- and not even realizing the sin until far later). The whole point is the "learning from failure" motif; the ending is Luke coming back from his failures, doing what was needed of him, and earning the legend that had been built around him. [/QUOTE]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Those are two vastly different situations. Vader was a mass murder. One who was actively threatening Leia. Someone he already tortured before. Ben Solo at worst a sleeping edgelord. Luke's justifications for his actions are to put it bluntly excuses. Rey even calls him out on it.

I think I screwed up the quote thing.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

ESB is the darkest movie of the OT (the good guys loose at the beginning and spend the rest of the movie trying to escape, Vader is revealed to be Luke's father, Luke -- the hero -- spends most of the movie getting everything wrong and pays an awful price for it before the end, Vader kills underlings who fail him (sometimes as black comedy).

In Empire Strikes Back, Darth Vader fails every single thing he sets out to do...
-- The entire attack on Hoth is a worthless victory since the rebels evacuate with the bulk of the forces (whereas TLJ has the First Order morons decimate the entire fleet step by step and bit by bit) and all Vader has is claiming an empty base to his credit.
-- Vader's actual plan in the movie is turning Luke to the dark side and plotting a coup d'etat on Palpatine. He fails utterly at that.
-- Vader's only minor victory is him capturing Han Solo, but even that is undone because thanks to his total incompetence as a military governor, Cloud City a neutral area goes entirely to the side of the rebels and Lando Calrissian replaces the loss of Han Solo as another great pilot who is now all-in with the Resistance.

ESB feels a lot darker and hopeless than it actually is. That's because it's entirely framed from the perspective of the main characters of Han, Leia, and Luke. But on the whole the resistance in ESB starts and ends more or less where they were post-Yavin. (I am sure there are some EU-readers and Marvel comics readers will tell me otherwise but I am going entirely by what's on screen in ANH and ESB.) The thing is ANH is a big epic war movie. But ESB is not, it has far lower stakes. It's not a sequel which believes "bigger is better", quite the opposite. ESB is a small-scale intense thriller. The stakes in ANH is much higher. The Death Star was a planet-killing machine, but in ESB, the stakes are about whether Han and Leia will tell each their feelings and make out, or whether Luke Skywalker will be corrupted by the dark side of the force, and exactly what is the deal with that Darth Vader guy. TLJ on the other hand is "bigger is better" in its approach and it has the same big war movie scale as TFA and TROS. The movie should have narrowed focus to Poe, Finn, Rey, Leia, Luke, Kylo. TLJ is the longest Star Wars movie ever made. So this is definitely not a movie of modest scale and intention.

George Lucas knew exactly what ESB should be and what it should do. During pre-production he had horror movies screened for the cast, and said that he wanted the movie to be closer in tone to The Exorcist than the previous movie. So ESB has a lot of horror elements, the entire swamp of Dagobah, for instance and that vision where Luke cuts off Vader only to find his face behind that mask and the final duel with Vader at Bespin. Whereas nobody had that imagination and wit during the production of TLJ, in a sense of going somewhere entirely different in style and scale from the previous movie.

Except they are, Rose guiding Finn through his story arc, while Holdo is a key player in Poe's story. That's what Lando and Yoda did in ESB.

Both Lando and Yoda are tied to the backstory of Han Solo, and the Jedi Order respectively. Whereas Rose Tico and Holdo aren't tied to the backstory of Finn and Poe. That's what I mean when I said the two characters served the established leads rather than being entirely unconnected to them. In TROS, JJ Abrams' new characters Zori Bliis and Jannah are actually connected to the backstories of Finn and Poe, the first being a former spice-runner like Poe and the other also being an ex-Stormtrooper. Not saying that doing that was right but basically, Rose and Holdo needed to have been connected to Finn and Poe. Holdo should have been a sergeant who knows Poe from his spice-smuggling days and was a martinet who gave him heat to do that. In fact, Holdo using Poe's past which he has hidden and feels ashamed of, would have given more reason for Holdo's suspicions. In TLJ, Finn is basically there to serve Rose's story, and not the other way around. It was Rose's sister who dies in the opening scene, it's Rose who has an interest in Canto Bight and saving the kids there, not Finn. It's also Rose who initiates a romance when Finn had no interest in her. This is the black male lead of The Force Awakens and he's basically demoted to being a tagalong for an OC in a sequel that should be a deep dive to his character. No wonder John Boyega was "iffy" about TLJ.

You say it cannot be this generation's ESB. I ask how, how can it not be that?

Because it has none of the qualities that ESB had originally. To make Empire Strikes Back today is to have a philosophy and attitude entirely opposed to big budget hollywood studios, where the sequel always has to "bigger, better, darker, grittier" and so on. The closest movie to the spirit of ESB is James Gunn's Guardians of the Galaxy 2 because again a very small scale movie compared to the first movie, a deeper dive into the characters, and a plot with more personal stakes (albeit because of Ego it does also have grand stakes at the end).

Funny, I found it to be best in the visuals since Lucas was doing it.

Flashy uses of red aren't good visuals. There are other colors.

You mean like how Canto Bight was given its own style,

Canto Bight looks like a setting out of the prequels. It's not something entirely new and different. The look of the ST needed to be as new and distinct as the PT was, as the OT was. The PT established that the world before the Old Republic, the era before the Empire, was grand, shiny, opulent and a lot more diverse in aesthetics and visuals than the OT. It communicated to you visually that the "used future" of the OT was entirely created by the Empire and Palpatine's totalitarian regime. In the ST, we needed to see the government of the Resistance, we needed to see the galaxy built on the work of Luke, Han, and Leia.

And what we got was...OT cosplay and retro-fetishism built by a bunch of people without any of the visual imagination of Lucas himself.