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  1. #16
    Fantastic Member basbash99's Avatar
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    What a ridiculous article, full of generalizations and speculation not backed up by anything but the author's own wishes.

    We don't know whether TROS suffered financially because of TLJ fans who didn't go see it, because of TLJ haters who walked away from the franchise, or some combo of both.

    Unfortunately, a segment of those who disliked TLJ were blatantly sexist in their critiques, and thus ANYBODY who disliked the film for any reason got lumped in with them. Just a sign of the times we live in, where if you don't tow the progessive line 100% or made a problematic statement decades ago, you are persona non grate.

    My favorite bit in the article is when she points out how some of the female characters feats in TLJ are portrayed by TROS to have been the result of luck or the assistance of men. I assume she is referring to stuff like Holdo maneuver, Leia's force pull in space, and Rey's overall force skills. So let's address those in order:

    1) If flying a ship into another at hyperspeed was a viable option, wouldn't it be happening all the time, especially with kamikaze imperial pilots? It makes sense that it would be something unlikely to work in most circumstances, otherwise space battles would be completely different.

    2) Leia being trained by Luke made sense and also gave her a role in TROS in helping Rey hone her skills. Otherwise Leia goes right from being force sensitive to having pretty major skills out of the blue.. and if she had those skills from jump, why wouldn't she have used them in ROTJ? And i think this is JJ making lemonade, since he didn't show Leia having any adeptness in the force in TFA aside from her ability to sense the feelings of those closest to her from afar.

    3) Rey's instant skill with the force was questioned by many even in TFA. Making her Palpatine's heir explains why she is able to accomplish major force feats as quickly as she does, with so little training.

    I won't even get into how TLJ largely sidelined the black and hispanic lead characters, having them accomplish nothing except learn some lessons, afterschool-special style.

    I will say Rose should've gotten more to do in TROS, there were numerous instances were someone with engineering/technical expertise could have been handy. I'll take JJ at his word that she was meant for more scenes with Leia but they didn't like the final results.

    That rant completed, i actually don't hate TLJ, its OK but doesn't work well as part 2 of a trilogy (and less so as part 8 of 9).... i definitely liked TFA and TROS better, and felt TROS suffered from basically having to introduce a new Big Bad at the last minute and having to make up for lost time by giving the main trio a bunch of adventures together. TROS would have been better if had split into two parts, to give the audience more time to process things and to give the characters more space to breathe. Basically the pace was too frantic for too much of the movie because they were trying to squeeze so much in. While TLJ was OK, Rian basically handed JJ some lemons and JJ did the best he could, imo.

  2. #17
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by basbash99 View Post
    We don't know whether TROS suffered financially because of TLJ fans who didn't go see it, because of TLJ haters who walked away from the franchise, or some combo of both.
    Fact is that TFA is the highest grossing of the ST.

    The profitability of any Hollywood movie is ultimately determined by the domestic gross, i.e. the US Box-office. The international box-office in terms of profits has an asterix because of taxes, customs, and other deals companies sign with local distributors.

    Every Disney movie after that has declined in sales. In terms of Domestic Gross:

    1 TFA - $936,662,225

    2 ROGUE ONE - $532,177,324

    3 TLJ - $620,181,382

    4 SOLO - $213,767,512

    5 TROS - $483,645,801

    Now of the lot, you can say
    - Rogue One did better than anyone expected since it was a movie with entirely original characters and a prequel and had controversy for a lot of reshoots (apparent in the trailers which are so different).
    - Yet by the same token, one can say that SOLO definitely underperformed worse than people expected.
    - TLJ's high sales can be attributed to the goodwill, hype, and excitement that TFA brought to it, so that explains its high initial opening, but then it declined with word of mouth.
    - TROS was affected by the divisive reaction to TLJ and was the first movie that came after Solo. Solo became an outright flop, the first time any of these movies did so. So it had a bigger chip on its shoulder as opposed to TLJ which came after TFA and Rogue One.
    - The weak take of TROS is affected by it further dividing the audience, ones who like TLJ don't like this, ones who dislike TLJ like it, while the burden of being a finale to the Skywalker saga further divided SW fans who liked the OT or the PT. The death of Carrie Fisher before the movie also cast a cloud over the movie.

  3. #18
    Mighty Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    I've often wondered if Solo would have done better if launched during November or December of that year rather than during the early summer tentpole season.

  4. #19
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    I've often wondered if Solo would have done better if launched during November or December of that year rather than during the early summer tentpole season.
    Absolutely. Solo didn't feel like the event of the year. Which Rogue One actually did feel like.
    - Rogue One and Solo were both plagued with reshoots.
    - Both were ANH prequels.
    - Rogue One had the disadvantage in that it had entirely new characters as protagonists.
    - Whereas Solo had Han, Chewie, Lando. Sure the latter had the burden of recasting actors people already knew but it worked with Ewan McGregor and Obi-Wan Kenobi...and again if unknown actors can sell OC, I think Disney had a right to expect them to sell versions of iconic characters.
    - There was nothing inevitable or preordained about Solo being a disaster.
    - Solo's marketing was quite poor, like we didn't get a proper trailer until a short while before release. So it needed a longer build-up than what it got.
    - At the end of the day I do think Rogue One is a better movie than Solo but I think with a little more time, with heads a little cooler, Solo could well have sorted out its confusion.

  5. #20
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MASTER-OF-SUPRISE View Post
    I've said it before and I'll say it again. Those are two vastly different situations. Vader was a mass murder. One who was actively threatening Leia. Someone he already tortured before. Ben Solo at worst a sleeping edgelord. Luke's justifications for his actions are to put it bluntly excuses. Rey even calls him out on it.
    Who says anyone was justifying anything. Luke certainly was not. Besides, the point is not that Vader already had a list of crimes to his name and Kylo was just a newly minted dark sider with none, the point is how both had a similar threat to the future and Luke's response to that possible threat was the same. That's called character continuity and good writing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    In Empire Strikes Back, Darth Vader fails every single thing he sets out to do...
    -- The entire attack on Hoth is a worthless victory since the rebels evacuate with the bulk of the forces (whereas TLJ has the First Order morons decimate the entire fleet step by step and bit by bit) and all Vader has is claiming an empty base to his credit.
    -- Vader's actual plan in the movie is turning Luke to the dark side and plotting a coup d'etat on Palpatine. He fails utterly at that.
    -- Vader's only minor victory is him capturing Han Solo, but even that is undone because thanks to his total incompetence as a military governor, Cloud City a neutral area goes entirely to the side of the rebels and Lando Calrissian replaces the loss of Han Solo as another great pilot who is now all-in with the Resistance.

    ESB feels a lot darker and hopeless than it actually is. That's because it's entirely framed from the perspective of the main characters of Han, Leia, and Luke. But on the whole the resistance in ESB starts and ends more or less where they were post-Yavin. (I am sure there are some EU-readers and Marvel comics readers will tell me otherwise but I am going entirely by what's on screen in ANH and ESB.) The thing is ANH is a big epic war movie. But ESB is not, it has far lower stakes. It's not a sequel which believes "bigger is better", quite the opposite. ESB is a small-scale intense thriller. The stakes in ANH is much higher. The Death Star was a planet-killing machine, but in ESB, the stakes are about whether Han and Leia will tell each their feelings and make out, or whether Luke Skywalker will be corrupted by the dark side of the force, and exactly what is the deal with that Darth Vader guy. TLJ on the other hand is "bigger is better" in its approach and it has the same big war movie scale as TFA and TROS. The movie should have narrowed focus to Poe, Finn, Rey, Leia, Luke, Kylo. TLJ is the longest Star Wars movie ever made. So this is definitely not a movie of modest scale and intention.

    George Lucas knew exactly what ESB should be and what it should do. During pre-production he had horror movies screened for the cast, and said that he wanted the movie to be closer in tone to The Exorcist than the previous movie. So ESB has a lot of horror elements, the entire swamp of Dagobah, for instance and that vision where Luke cuts off Vader only to find his face behind that mask and the final duel with Vader at Bespin. Whereas nobody had that imagination and wit during the production of TLJ, in a sense of going somewhere entirely different in style and scale from the previous movie.



    Both Lando and Yoda are tied to the backstory of Han Solo, and the Jedi Order respectively. Whereas Rose Tico and Holdo aren't tied to the backstory of Finn and Poe. That's what I mean when I said the two characters served the established leads rather than being entirely unconnected to them. In TROS, JJ Abrams' new characters Zori Bliis and Jannah are actually connected to the backstories of Finn and Poe, the first being a former spice-runner like Poe and the other also being an ex-Stormtrooper. Not saying that doing that was right but basically, Rose and Holdo needed to have been connected to Finn and Poe. Holdo should have been a sergeant who knows Poe from his spice-smuggling days and was a martinet who gave him heat to do that. In fact, Holdo using Poe's past which he has hidden and feels ashamed of, would have given more reason for Holdo's suspicions. In TLJ, Finn is basically there to serve Rose's story, and not the other way around. It was Rose's sister who dies in the opening scene, it's Rose who has an interest in Canto Bight and saving the kids there, not Finn. It's also Rose who initiates a romance when Finn had no interest in her. This is the black male lead of The Force Awakens and he's basically demoted to being a tagalong for an OC in a sequel that should be a deep dive to his character. No wonder John Boyega was "iffy" about TLJ.



    Because it has none of the qualities that ESB had originally. To make Empire Strikes Back today is to have a philosophy and attitude entirely opposed to big budget hollywood studios, where the sequel always has to "bigger, better, darker, grittier" and so on. The closest movie to the spirit of ESB is James Gunn's Guardians of the Galaxy 2 because again a very small scale movie compared to the first movie, a deeper dive into the characters, and a plot with more personal stakes (albeit because of Ego it does also have grand stakes at the end).



    Flashy uses of red aren't good visuals. There are other colors.



    Canto Bight looks like a setting out of the prequels. It's not something entirely new and different. The look of the ST needed to be as new and distinct as the PT was, as the OT was. The PT established that the world before the Old Republic, the era before the Empire, was grand, shiny, opulent and a lot more diverse in aesthetics and visuals than the OT. It communicated to you visually that the "used future" of the OT was entirely created by the Empire and Palpatine's totalitarian regime. In the ST, we needed to see the government of the Resistance, we needed to see the galaxy built on the work of Luke, Han, and Leia.

    And what we got was...OT cosplay and retro-fetishism built by a bunch of people without any of the visual imagination of Lucas himself.
    The more you explain, the less I believe you. You do you and all that, but yeah.
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  6. #21

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    @WebLurker: The problem is they are NOT similar threats.

  7. #22
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Who says anyone was justifying anything. Luke certainly was not. Besides, the point is not that Vader already had a list of crimes to his name and Kylo was just a newly minted dark sider with none, the point is how both had a similar threat to the future and Luke's response to that possible threat was the same. That's called character continuity and good writing.
    That's where I disagree. In Jedi him and his friends were in danger and was face to face with the Emperor and Vader in actual combat. Vader was pushing him trying to make him angry. Ben was having bad thoughts or something and just sleeping there. It's a hard comparison to match Luke's final battle with Vader to killing Ben in his sleep let alone call it character continuity.
    It could have been just as easy to have Ben turn to the dark side and Luke fail at creating a new Jedi Order without him thinking about killing a kid in his sleep. I think that it would have been just as effective to have Ben leave to follow Snoke because Luke expects too much of him or Ben thinks that Luke is holding him back (much like Anakin did with the previous Jedi Order). Have him come back to Luke's Jedi temple to destroy it with the Knights of Ren. Him and Luke have a light saber duel. Luke has the chance to take him out and hesitates because him can't, just like he couldn't strike down Vader (character continuity) because of his attachment to him by family. His failure at saving Ben and loosening his new Jedi Order is the reason he goes into hiding and cut him self off form the force. Because his feelings, his attachments ,have become what he thinks of is a weakness. I would actually have been good to see Luke fail at trying to save Ben in the same way he succeeded at saving his father. Could have left out Rey's parentage and the long trippy dark side mirror cave with Rey (or all of Canto Bite) to fit it in with it being seen through Rey's force visions.
    In the end it is the same result but Luke is not thinking about killing children in their sleep. I liked a lot of the Luke arc in TLJ (one of the only things I did like about the movie) I just really did not like the origin of his self exile it did not seem very "Luke" in my opinion.
    Last edited by Moon Ronin; 01-21-2020 at 12:23 PM.
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    In so far as its themes go, it borders on the incoherent. There's almost nothing the movie seems to really believe or hold conviction in. It's main theme is "let the past die" but you can't use the second installment of a sequel spinoff movie produced by Disney to make that claim.
    I will never understand why people think the words of a the main villain (who doesn't even live by his philosophy as seen by his hero worship of his fascist grandfather and desire to restore the empire) as the message of the movie.

    It spends an entire movie demolishing Luke Skywalker and then in the finale has him played as a hero by small children in a way that's not ironic at all.
    So Luke shouldn't have been allowed to make a heroic comeback?

    Making Rey a "nobody" even if she doesn't have the backstory some fan theories wanted/preferred robs her of a major character arc in what should have been the movie that went deep dive into her character.
    Where is this character arc that Rey being a nobody robbed her of? In TROS she's a prize for Kylo Ren and a pawn for Palpatine's scheme. This obsession with special bloodlines is exactly what TLJ was criticizing.

    Quote Originally Posted by basbash99 View Post

    We don't know whether TROS suffered financially because of TLJ fans who didn't go see it, because of TLJ haters who walked away from the franchise, or some combo of both.
    Solo was never going to be a success. It was a movie starring a guy who hasn't aged well as a character, wasn't played by Harrison Ford who was the only reason Solo was ever tolerable and was released far too early after the previous Star Wars movie. You can justify making a movie trilogy not to mention a six season t.v. series about the fall of the republic and the rise of the empire but no one gave a damn about how Han Solo got his name.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 01-21-2020 at 09:05 PM.

  9. #24
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MASTER-OF-SUPRISE View Post
    @WebLurker: The problem is they are NOT similar threats.
    "So...you have a twin sister. Your feelings have now betrayed her, too. Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me. Now his failure is complete. If you will not turn to the darkside, then perhaps she will." - ROTJ

    "I saw darkness. I'd sensed it building in him. I'd see it at moments during his training. But then I looked inside... and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction, and pain, and death... and the end of everything I love because of what he will become." - TLJ

    The latter may be more severe in terms of consequences (a whole school vs. one person), but the same spectrum of threat and we see Luke react in much the same way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    That's where I disagree. In Jedi him and his friends were in danger and was face to face with the Emperor and Vader in actual combat. Vader was pushing him trying to make him angry. Ben was having bad thoughts or something and just sleeping there. It's a hard comparison to match Luke's final battle with Vader to killing Ben in his sleep let alone call it character continuity.
    It could have been just as easy to have Ben turn to the dark side and Luke fail at creating a new Jedi Order without him thinking about killing a kid in his sleep. I think that it would have been just as effective to have Ben leave to follow Snoke because Luke expects too much of him or Ben thinks that Luke is holding him back (much like Anakin did with the previous Jedi Order). Have him come back to Luke's Jedi temple to destroy it with the Knights of Ren. Him and Luke have a light saber duel. Luke has the chance to take him out and hesitates because him can't, just like he couldn't strike down Vader (character continuity) because of his attachment to him by family. His failure at saving Ben and loosening his new Jedi Order is the reason he goes into hiding and cut him self off form the force. Because his feelings, his attachments ,have become what he thinks of is a weakness. I would actually have been good to see Luke fail at trying to save Ben in the same way he succeeded at saving his father. Could have left out Rey's parentage and the long trippy dark side mirror cave with Rey (or all of Canto Bite) to fit it in with it being seen through Rey's force visions.
    In the end it is the same result but Luke is not thinking about killing children in their sleep. I liked a lot of the Luke arc in TLJ (one of the only things I did like about the movie) I just really did not like the origin of his self exile it did not seem very "Luke" in my opinion.
    Maybe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Where is this character arc that Rey being a nobody robbed her of? In TROS she's a prize for Kylo Ren and a pawn for Palpatine's scheme. This obsession with special bloodlines is exactly what TLJ was criticizing.
    Funny thing that TROS's final word on special bloodlines is that they mean far less then the actions of the person.
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  10. #25

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    @WebLurker: That is not the same thing. One is a direct threat. The other is a flimsy justification of a very vague darkness. There is a Galaxy level of difference between the two.

  11. #26
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I will never understand why people think the words of a the main villain (who doesn't even live by his philosophy as seen by his hero worship of his fascist grandfather and desire to restore the empire) as the message of the movie.
    Because the movie doesn't offer a single moment to the Light Side to counter that claim of "let the past die". That scene also has Kylo telling Rey she's a nobody, so it's a moment of truth scene. So there's no reason to think that the movie wants you to leave that he's wrong in that moment.

    So Luke shouldn't have been allowed to make a heroic comeback?
    Not after he tried to kill his nephew in cold blood over a vision. Obi-Wan and Yoda would never have done that. That's definitely crossing a major line. You don't have a character do that, and then do a soft reunion tour where he acts the way Luke Skywalker fans expected, all for the sake of a small distraction. And then after that small children talk about his heroic legend which neglects the fact that he triggered the villain of the enterprise on the path he went down on.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Because the movie doesn't offer a single moment to the Light Side to counter that claim of "let the past die".
    You mean other than Rey taking the Jedi texts with her? The movie’s message is to neither glorify not demonize the past but to learn from it. Ren does the former and that is what makes him the villain. If he isn't following his own philosophy how can you claim the movie is pushing it as the core message?


    That scene also has Kylo telling Rey she's a nobody, so it's a moment of truth scene. So there's no reason to think that the movie wants you to leave that he's wrong in that moment.
    Him being right about Rey’s parents and being right about “letting the past die” are two different things. We can after all accept that Darth Vader was still a villain even after he told Luke the truth about his father so why is accepting that Ren is both a hypocrite about letting the past die and right about Rey’s parents so difficult?


    Not after he tried to kill his nephew in cold blood over a vision. Obi-Wan and Yoda would never have done that. That's definitely crossing a major line. You don't have a character do that, and then do a soft reunion tour where he acts the way Luke Skywalker fans expected, all for the sake of a small distraction. And then after that small children talk about his heroic legend which neglects the fact that he triggered the villain of the enterprise on the path he went down on.
    You’re making it look like he tried to kill Ren and simply failed. He had a moment of weakness in which he contemplated killing Ben and then realized what he was doing and pulled back. Everything else that Ren did was entirely on his own head not Luke’s (or Palpatine’s because apparently Kylo Ren can’t be allowed to have any agency whatsoever). Lucas had Anakin accepted into Force Heaven despite his far more egregious crimes. Luke’s one mistake doesn’t even put him in the top ten most vile people in the Star Wars universe.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 01-22-2020 at 08:35 AM.

  13. #28
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    "So...you have a twin sister. Your feelings have now betrayed her, too. Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me. Now his failure is complete. If you will not turn to the darkside, then perhaps she will." - ROTJ

    "I saw darkness. I'd sensed it building in him. I'd see it at moments during his training. But then I looked inside... and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction, and pain, and death... and the end of everything I love because of what he will become." - TLJ.
    Leia was already in danger the Emperor told him as much when he said that every thing up to that point was a planed trap. This was Vader and Palpatine trying to push Luke to the edge to create fear,anger, and hate with in him and turn him to the dark side and it almost worked but Luke was able to push the emotions back and not kill Vader. The mark of the end of the Hero's Journey is that the hero is the master of 2 worlds, this overcoming of his emotion of fear, hate, and, anger was the final step to his mastery of the supernatural world. To have him revert back to his fear and reacting to it even in an instant takes away from his victory over his emotions in ROTJ.

    The latter may be more severe in terms of consequences (a whole school vs. one person), but the same spectrum of threat and we see Luke react in much the same way
    Luke's action held the entire future galaxy in the balance in ROTJ so the consequences weren't as scale tipping as a whole school vs. one person. Luke acting the same way takes away from his growth as a character. That and you would figure that his focus would be toward Snoke and not Ben. If Vader did get to Leia and started her toward the dark side would Luke think "well I got to kill her too I guess ".

    It was all done in the heat of battle and a flood of emotions at one time, with Ben it over a long period of time to the point that one night Luke thought "might as well go kill the kid in his sleep before this goes to far".

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I will never understand why people think the words of a the main villain (who doesn't even live by his philosophy as seen by his hero worship of his fascist grandfather and desire to restore the empire) as the message of the movie.
    Because it is the most memorable line in the movie, and is seemed to be a sentiment shared by both Kilo Ren and Luke Skywalker shared through most of the movie. So it wasn't just the main villain that had this view but also the hero, with the plot trying to have so many twist and turns Luke's revelation was lost in the mix to some so they came away with "let the past die" as the theme to the movie. Johnson seemed to push Ren's fixation with Vader to the back burner or completely off the stove in TLJ. As there was none of it what so ever really in the movie and even had him smash his helmet which I was kind of led to believe it was his homage to Vader in TFA from what Han said about it. I was under the impression that he sort of left that behind him after Snoke shamed him about it. His smashing the helmet seem to be symbolism of the idea of killing the past if you have to.
    So Luke shouldn't have been allowed to make a heroic comeback?
    The come back was fine, his stumble was a mess.

    Where is this character arc that Rey being a nobody robbed her of? In TROS she's a prize for Kylo Ren and a pawn for Palpatine's scheme. This obsession with special bloodlines is exactly what TLJ was criticizing.
    Bloodlines really were not a big deal in the Star Wars movies until JJ created Rey. TLJ was writhen and filmed so soon after it couldn't be a reacting to that. I think that Johnson was in a since trying to capture the "No, I am your father" of ESB. The only thing is that the character of Rey seemed to have no expectations of who her family was just that they were out there somewhere and she didn't know who they were. And in the previous movie she was already told that they were not coming back for her by Maz Kanata. Oddly Maz saying what Rey sought was not behind her, but ahead sort of give Rey a redundant lesson in TLJ (same with what Maz told Finn and his arc in TLJ was redundant too that she no longer saw a coward but a warrior in him). It was not such a great revelation at all given the scope of the character given what she has already been told so it seem the "nobody" premise was put there more for audience reaction than story driven.

    Solo was never going to be a success. It was a movie starring a guy who hasn't aged well as a character, wasn't played by Harrison Ford who was the only reason Solo was ever tolerable and was released far too early after the previous Star Wars movie. You can justify making a movie trilogy not to mention a six season t.v. series about the fall of the republic and the rise of the empire but no one gave a damn about how Han Solo got his name.
    I like Solo it was actually the first movie to add something new to Star Wars. I never thought it was gonna be a run away hit and with the production problems and other missteps its success was even further diminished. I think the reason that The Mandoloran has been so well received (other than "Baby Yoda") is that it is outside the main Star Wars story line. Both Rogue One and Solo have direct ties to characters or plot points to the "Skywalker Saga" and I don't think that they should keep going in that direction. I hope that Disney+ will pick up after Solo and try and get Emilia Clarke to play Qi'ra and make some kind of Star Wars crime syndicate series.

    I never really understood how people said TLJ brought something new to Star Wars when it really didn't do any thing but be a misleading circle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Him being right about Rey’s parents and being right about “letting the past die” are two different things. We can after all accept that Darth Vader was still a villain even after he told Luke the truth about his father so why is accepting that Ren is both a hypocrite about letting the past die and right about Rey’s parents so difficult?
    His actions also pushed this idea. His killing Snoke and fighting along side Rey indicated that he really wasn't with the status quo, not that he was a good guy just that his idea's of how things should go were different. No one thought that Vader was a good guy after he told Luke that he was his father. I do think that Ren held the belief for letting the past die, and to kill it if you have to. His killing of Han and Snoke were literal representations of this not to mention smashing his helmet that was clearly part of his need to be like Vader.
    Last edited by Moon Ronin; 01-22-2020 at 12:40 PM.
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  14. #29
    Put a smile on that face Immortal Weapon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    I guess many critics feel betrayed because they spent so much time defending TLJ only for JJ to do a complete reversal. I could have sworn I saw the movies in this trilogy getting into a fist fight at a Waffle House
    Now they know how it feels to b on the other side. They celebrate when TLJ wiped it's ass with everything that came before it. Now that it's happened to the movie they liked they crying foul. Can't help but point and laugh at the hypocrisy.

  15. #30
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    Leia was already in danger the Emperor told him as much when he said that every thing up to that point was a planed trap. This was Vader and Palpatine trying to push Luke to the edge to create fear,anger, and hate with in him and turn him to the dark side and it almost worked but Luke was able to push the emotions back and not kill Vader. The mark of the end of the Hero's Journey is that the hero is the master of 2 worlds, this overcoming of his emotion of fear, hate, and, anger was the final step to his mastery of the supernatural world. To have him revert back to his fear and reacting to it even in an instant takes away from his victory over his emotions in ROTJ.
    Did Luke spending most of ESB making mistake after mistake take away from his victory in ANH? Look, the one constant in the original trilogy is that Luke was not the perfect hero. Why would we expect things to be different later down the line? Also, ROTJ isn't the end of the story, no more then any of us are finished with character development and backsliding and reclaiming until our own lives are done. (Besides, we saw what the Luke you're talking about looked like in the Legends tie-ins, and it was a stagnant, flat character. TLJ did the right thing in giving him a character arc instead of having him just come in like Superman and get the job done.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    Luke's action held the entire future galaxy in the balance in ROTJ so the consequences were as scale tipping as a whole school vs. one person. Luke acting the same way takes away from his growth as a character. That and you would figure that his focus would be toward Snoke and not Ben. If Vader did get to Leia and started her toward the dark side would Luke think "well I got to kill her too I guess ".

    It was all done in the heat of battle and a flood of emotions at one time, with been it over a long period of time to the point that one night Luke thought "might as well go kill the kid in his sleep before this goes to far".
    Eh, not so much:

    I saw darkness. I'd sensed it building in him. I'd see it at moments during his training. But then I looked inside... and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction, and pain, and death... and the end of everything I love because of what he will become. And for the briefest moment of pure instinct... I thought I could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow. And I was left with shame... and with consequence. And the last thing I saw... were the eyes of a frightened boy whose master had failed him."


    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    Because it is the most memorable line in the movie, and is seemed to be a sentiment shared by both Kilo Ren and Luke Skywalker shared through most of the movie. So it wasn't just the main villain that had this view but also the hero, with the plot trying to have so many twist and turns Luke's revelation was lost in the mix to some so they came away with "let the past die" as the theme to the movie. Johnson seemed to push Ren's fixation with Vader to the back burner or completely off the stove in TLJ. As there was none of it what so ever really in the movie and even had him smash his helmet which I was kind of led to believe it was his homage to Vader in TFA from what Han said about it. I was under the impression that he sort of left that behind him after Snoke shamed him about it. His smashing the helmet seem to be symbolism of the idea of killing the past if you have to.
    Luke's whole story arc is refuting the "let the past die" idea and that is pretty explicitly telegraphed; from his starting the movie saying the Jedi need to end to ending the movie stating that the line will continue after him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    Bloodlines really were not a big deal in the Star Wars movies until JJ created Rey. TLJ was writhen and filmed so soon after it couldn't be a reacting to that. I think that Johnson was in a since trying to capture the "No, I am your father" of ESB. The only thing is that the character of Rey seemed to have no expectations of who her family was just that they were out there somewhere and she didn't know who they were. And in the previous movie she was already told that they were not coming back for her by Maz Kanata. Oddly Maz saying what Rey sought was not behind her, but ahead sort of give Rey a redundant lesson in TLJ (same with what Max told Finn and his arc in TLJ was redundant too). It was not such a great revelation at all given the scope of the character given what she has already been told so it seem the "nobody" premise was put there more for audience reaction than story driven.
    I think TROS did a pretty darn good job showing that bloodlines weren't that big a deal period. That's kinda the main message of the film.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
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    (All-New Wolverine #4)

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