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  1. #31
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kilderkin View Post
    I appreciate they tell us this

    But external observations show this isn't true

    He was crafted from the cubes power from that memory

    But it's still a new cap crafted by the cube based on the extracted memory

    True in spirit perhaps but certainly not in body

    Whether that's important or not is up to the individual I suppose
    The "memory" aka real!Steve was there all along. In the Vanishing Point. This was shown to us from the very beginning of Secret Empire. Real!Steve, of the Vanishing Point, appeared in Secret Empire #2. So he and hydra!Cap existed simultaneously, all along. It wasn't this last minute plot twist. But whatever, actual canon contradicts your feelings on the matter. The point has been addressed by Marvel, ON PANEL, the current Cap is the real Cap. They have answered this definitively. You want to feel different go ahead, but official canon contradicts you.



    BTW Hydra!Cap is also a construct of the cosmic cube. He too was molded by her. Because none of his history, was, in fact, real. It was all constructed.
    Last edited by capandkirby; 01-21-2020 at 12:57 PM.

  2. #32
    Extraordinary Member Zero Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Because she has her original mind/soul?

    This is comics. The meat doesn't matter as much as what's resting in the brainpan.

    So cloned body but original soul.

    So, so what?
    But is it her original soul though. Since this is Marvel and they have shown there is an afterlife in the MCU they would need some way of pulling her soul back from where its at. Otherwise she is just s copy with implanted memories. There is nothing saying a clone can't have a soul, but it would be a totally new person and not the original. When you start getting into god like characters resurecting people then it gets a little more grey in did they just bring back the body or did they pull the soul back too, but most of the time I don't think just creating a new body brings back the soul unless it is stated. I mean the Fantastic Four had to actually go to the afterlife to get the Things soul back in that one story so the afterlife is a very real thing.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cmbmool View Post
    That's how I view it all as I truly do not think that the current Cap we have is the real one and that the real one was lost in the mind of Hydra Steve Rogers.
    while it is a fair intepretation of the way secret empire ended, i do think it is better this way and it might've been better written

    i think I've heard people say that nick on twitter also said that the good steve was the real steve, but he deleted his twitter so I can't confirm

  4. #34
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichijinijisanji View Post
    while it is a fair intepretation of the way secret empire ended, i do think it is better this way and it might've been better written

    i think I've heard people say that nick on twitter also said that the good steve was the real steve, but he deleted his twitter so I can't confirm
    He did say that, yes. I used to follow him when he had a twitter and I, also, remember that tweet.

  5. #35
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    I remember when the book was coming out and people thought the flashback panel showing the dead characters like Rick and Natalia meant Kobik brought them back even though the beat was explicitly about how she wouldn't do that.

  6. #36
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Hunter View Post
    But is it her original soul though. Since this is Marvel and they have shown there is an afterlife in the MCU they would need some way of pulling her soul back from where its at. Otherwise she is just s copy with implanted memories. There is nothing saying a clone can't have a soul, but it would be a totally new person and not the original. When you start getting into god like characters resurecting people then it gets a little more grey in did they just bring back the body or did they pull the soul back too, but most of the time I don't think just creating a new body brings back the soul unless it is stated. I mean the Fantastic Four had to actually go to the afterlife to get the Things soul back in that one story so the afterlife is a very real thing.
    Nick Spencer's ASM dealt with the same issue during the last Kraven storyline, the Billy (Lizard's son) clone is the same 'soul' as the original Billy according to Dr. Strange.
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  7. #37
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    It's a comic book resurrection. Natasha is Natasha because the comic says she's Natasha and has a continuity of personhood from her death to now. It's no different than Arnim Zola popping between bodies, as far as I can tell.

    The only time its an issue is when the comic makes an issue of it, like say with what they're doing with Stark right now.

  8. #38
    Astonishing Member Gaastra's Avatar
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    Well prof X got a clone body in the 90s so he could walk again then his clone body got his legs broke (What are the odds of him ending in a wheelchair twice with two bodies? It's almost like some writer wanted to recon him back to their childhood instead of gong forward with him. But marvel would never do that right?)

    Didn't the red skull use a few clone bodies also? Thor has two clones running around and isn't x23 a clone of wolverine? Isn't the lizards family clones?

    Vision is not in his real body but a evil vision from another universe he switched minds with. (people forget about that one) His real body was white at the time.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaastra View Post
    Well prof X got a clone body in the 90s so he could walk again then his clone body got his legs broke (What are the odds of him ending in a wheelchair twice with two bodies? It's almost like some writer wanted to recon him back to their childhood instead of gong forward with him. But marvel would never do that right?)
    lmao
    every time charles gets the use of his legs back there's someone around the corner with a crowbar

  10. #40
    Extraordinary Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seren View Post
    I mean, technically anyone who died in Secret Wars isn't really the original right? Soooo...
    I'm still trying to wrap my head around that one. Although it probably wouldn't be the first time that heroes died, but somehow returned to the earth in some form or another. I wish I had a gate pass to my own personal Siege Perilous.

  11. #41
    Extraordinary Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaastra View Post
    Vision is not in his real body but a evil vision from another universe he switched minds with. (people forget about that one) His real body was white at the time.
    I think I missed something. I thought Vision's original body was that of the original Human Torch. Did they give him another body after that??? Now that I think about it, I guess they'd have to, since the original Human Torch is back in action these days.

  12. #42
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    I think I missed something. I thought Vision's original body was that of the original Human Torch. Did they give him another body after that??? Now that I think about it, I guess they'd have to, since the original Human Torch is back in action these days.
    In Avengers Forever, they had to fix the mess Byrne and Thomas(?) made in WCA by having Immortus duplicate Jim's body, so that one could be stolen by Ultron and the original could be reawakened later.

  13. #43
    Astonishing Member Gaastra's Avatar
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    Yeah. The body the vision is in now was the anti-visions body. He was a member of a evil avengers team the gatherers and stole visions white body posing as him in the avengers for a bit. After he was destroyed(??) vision was stuck in anti-visions body. His body was the classic green one. More or less the writer wanted the classic vision back and this is how he got it.

    [IMG][/IMG]
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  14. #44
    Extraordinary Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Thank you both for getting me up to speed. What a mess.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaastra View Post
    Yeah. The body the vision is in now was the anti-visions body. He was a member of a evil avengers team the gatherers and stole visions white body posing as him in the avengers for a bit. After he was destroyed(??) vision was stuck in anti-visions body. His body was the classic green one. More or less the writer wanted the classic vision back and this is how he got it.

    [IMG][/IMG]
    [IMG][/IMG]
    [IMG][/IMG]
    The Vision was restored to his original body at the time of Heroes Reborn/Return.

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