Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 44
  1. #1
    Fighting Injustice on CBR SUPERECWFAN1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    WV ...in the Middle of Nowhere !
    Posts
    13,671

    Default Doomsday Clock : On How NOT to follow Alan Moore...




    30+ years ago Alan Moore wrote a series that for years has been revered. Watchmen for all intents and purposes is considered a modern classic in writing and Moore took newly created characters and crafted a masterpiece story. One built on cold war tensions and using super heroes to tell that tale. For years the story was never touched or the whole sequel idea was one that Paul Levitz would never allow.

    But as time and DC underwent corporate changes Levitz would leave. DC would undergo changes to the line as the New 52 was approved and Vertigo characters were pulled back. To increase sales and make as much profit as need be publishing wise. Then they saw the Watchmen characters. After Zack Snyder's "Watchmen" really helped increase TPB sales (Watchmen had always sold well in TPB , but DC printed tons of new editions and sold well) , DC & WB realized there was a market for these characters.

    This would lead to "Before Watchmen" and the critically panned books done. Many feeling this personally spit on Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons legacy of work. Many had hoped after the limited series run of books that DC would never do anything related to Watchmen again.


    They just didn't know how desperate DC would get to fix things...AGAIN.





    After a huge launch of millions of books sold within a few months of fall 2011 , the DC New 52 reboot of the core universe after 25 years began to go off the rails. Within a year some books were cancelled and DC was struggling to build a new continuity around its characters. But struggles with that led to numerous relaunches , changes etc that can be debated . After the failure of DC You in 2015 as new initiative , DC had to scramble with a new move in 2016 to restore faith from readers back in the line.

    In a shock DC Rebirth would come out in May 2016 and reveal that the New 52 Earth was in fact a creation of Dr. Manhattan. That he was responsible for the new universe that no longer knew Wally West , that had removed the Justice Society from existence and more. This was meant to fix EVERYTHING back and restore the legacy of the DC Universe everyone missed.





    The run down was Wally was needing to find out who was responsible for the missing years taken from his life and others. Meanwhile Dr. Oz had kidnapped Tim Drake over in Detective Comics. Oz claimed he knew Batman would come eventually and he seemingly was preparing Drake and everyone for what was ahead. Over in Action Comics Oz was revealed to be Jor-El who had due to Manhattan's meddling survived and he was responsible for Krypton's destruction. Batman itself had an event called "The Button" that crossed over with Flash as they discuss this "threat" that may have impacted their lives. An appearance by Jay Garrick seemed to hint the Justice Society would be involved.

    The wheels came off pretty quick as NONE OF THIS was at all involved in Doomsday Clock.

    In fact the whole 12 issue series that began in January 2018 involved a few elements that were never mentioned at all in the lead up to this event.


    - There was a level of distrust planted in people towards its super heroes as people started to protest Batman and others at times. This was never shown at all in any of the books I saw. Least of all Tom King's Batman or Detective. This global level of distrust grew more and more as nations got involved.

    - Saturn Girl was involved in this story but no where was it mentioned she would be a character involved in this storyline or the lead up.

    - Batman in an issue of Action Comics (Oz Effect epilogue) hints at getting help from Superman to handle this situation before Doomsday Clock begins. Yet the series really seems so behind the ball on things and never has that meeting with Superman to discuss anything.

    - Wally West is a non factor and months before this storyline kicked off , the whole reasoning of his missing years and people forgetting him changed. Instead of Doctor Manhattan being involved , it now was shown that his missing years was due to Abra Kadabra which was one of the weirdest changes in power levels done.

    - In fact Flash basically sit this one out as even though the Button arc had it seem that Barry Allen would be looking into this situation as well.


    The storyline itself was a delayed mess. With Geoff Johns trying to weave a complicated Alan Moore type written story. Johns is not Alan Moore and his talent at writing is basically big epic super hero battles. Not intricate detail stories that examine things that weave complex political themes etc. In creating a shifting metaverse concept it seemed like he was trying to be more Alan Moore and Grant Morrison. And failing in spectacular fashion.

    The very issues themselves tried copying Moore's storytelling aspect of Watchmen and failing as well. The typical 9 panel grid aspect seemingly was ripped from Watchmen to make it a companion series.

    The end its revealed that Superman means hope repeatedly for the DC Universe and its constant need to evolve and reboot itself as a living creature outside of Manhattan being involved. Superman's way of hope change Dr. Manhattan's views and he allows the universe to reset to the Post Crisis world that was long missing. Clark has his parents alive again , he was Superboy originally , the Justice Society also existed.

    I won't spoil anything else since its a gigantic piss all over Moore's work essentially. As we have to hope this ends and no more is done with Watchmen Universe because it could get even worse.



    - OVERALL : Just a terrible 12 issue series that clearly was an evolving mess. If they had done this after Rebirth one shot a lot could have been different. So many things were dropped along the way and NONE OF THEM made it into Doomsday Clock. The end result is a mess and makes you question exactly where this series fits now. What is a shame is this was 2+ years of DC building to this huge event that ran over 2+ years and was such a colossal waste.
    "The story so far: As usual, Ginger and I are engaged in our quest to find out what the hell is going on and save humanity from my nemesis, some bastard who is presumably responsible." - Sir Digby Chicken Caesar.

  2. #2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SUPERECWFAN1 View Post



    30+ years ago Alan Moore wrote a series that for years has been revered. Watchmen for all intents and purposes is considered a modern classic in writing and Moore took newly created characters and crafted a masterpiece story. One built on cold war tensions and using super heroes to tell that tale. For years the story was never touched or the whole sequel idea was one that Paul Levitz would never allow.

    But as time and DC underwent corporate changes Levitz would leave. DC would undergo changes to the line as the New 52 was approved and Vertigo characters were pulled back. To increase sales and make as much profit as need be publishing wise. Then they saw the Watchmen characters. After Zack Snyder's "Watchmen" really helped increase TPB sales (Watchmen had always sold well in TPB , but DC printed tons of new editions and sold well) , DC & WB realized there was a market for these characters.

    This would lead to "Before Watchmen" and the critically panned books done. Many feeling this personally spit on Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons legacy of work. Many had hoped after the limited series run of books that DC would never do anything related to Watchmen again.


    They just didn't know how desperate DC would get to fix things...AGAIN.





    After a huge launch of millions of books sold within a few months of fall 2011 , the DC New 52 reboot of the core universe after 25 years began to go off the rails. Within a year some books were cancelled and DC was struggling to build a new continuity around its characters. But struggles with that led to numerous relaunches , changes etc that can be debated . After the failure of DC You in 2015 as new initiative , DC had to scramble with a new move in 2016 to restore faith from readers back in the line.

    In a shock DC Rebirth would come out in May 2016 and reveal that the New 52 Earth was in fact a creation of Dr. Manhattan. That he was responsible for the new universe that no longer knew Wally West , that had removed the Justice Society from existence and more. This was meant to fix EVERYTHING back and restore the legacy of the DC Universe everyone missed.





    The run down was Wally was needing to find out who was responsible for the missing years taken from his life and others. Meanwhile Dr. Oz had kidnapped Tim Drake over in Detective Comics. Oz claimed he knew Batman would come eventually and he seemingly was preparing Drake and everyone for what was ahead. Over in Action Comics Oz was revealed to be Jor-El who had due to Manhattan's meddling survived and he was responsible for Krypton's destruction. Batman itself had an event called "The Button" that crossed over with Flash as they discuss this "threat" that may have impacted their lives. An appearance by Jay Garrick seemed to hint the Justice Society would be involved.

    The wheels came off pretty quick as NONE OF THIS was at all involved in Doomsday Clock.

    In fact the whole 12 issue series that began in January 2018 involved a few elements that were never mentioned at all in the lead up to this event.


    - There was a level of distrust planted in people towards its super heroes as people started to protest Batman and others at times. This was never shown at all in any of the books I saw. Least of all Tom King's Batman or Detective. This global level of distrust grew more and more as nations got involved.

    - Saturn Girl was involved in this story but no where was it mentioned she would be a character involved in this storyline or the lead up.

    - Batman in an issue of Action Comics (Oz Effect epilogue) hints at getting help from Superman to handle this situation before Doomsday Clock begins. Yet the series really seems so behind the ball on things and never has that meeting with Superman to discuss anything.

    - Wally West is a non factor and months before this storyline kicked off , the whole reasoning of his missing years and people forgetting him changed. Instead of Doctor Manhattan being involved , it now was shown that his missing years was due to Abra Kadabra which was one of the weirdest changes in power levels done.

    - In fact Flash basically sit this one out as even though the Button arc had it seem that Barry Allen would be looking into this situation as well.


    The storyline itself was a delayed mess. With Geoff Johns trying to weave a complicated Alan Moore type written story. Johns is not Alan Moore and his talent at writing is basically big epic super hero battles. Not intricate detail stories that examine things that weave complex political themes etc. In creating a shifting metaverse concept it seemed like he was trying to be more Alan Moore and Grant Morrison. And failing in spectacular fashion.

    The very issues themselves tried copying Moore's storytelling aspect of Watchmen and failing as well. The typical 9 panel grid aspect seemingly was ripped from Watchmen to make it a companion series.

    The end its revealed that Superman means hope repeatedly for the DC Universe and its constant need to evolve and reboot itself as a living creature outside of Manhattan being involved. Superman's way of hope change Dr. Manhattan's views and he allows the universe to reset to the Post Crisis world that was long missing. Clark has his parents alive again , he was Superboy originally , the Justice Society also existed.

    I won't spoil anything else since its a gigantic piss all over Moore's work essentially. As we have to hope this ends and no more is done with Watchmen Universe because it could get even worse.



    - OVERALL : Just a terrible 12 issue series that clearly was an evolving mess. If they had done this after Rebirth one shot a lot could have been different. So many things were dropped along the way and NONE OF THEM made it into Doomsday Clock. The end result is a mess and makes you question exactly where this series fits now. What is a shame is this was 2+ years of DC building to this huge event that ran over 2+ years and was such a colossal waste.
    Which makes it all the more curious as to why Wonder Woman is now the first superhero as opposed to Superman; especially if he is the glue that holds everything together?

    Great write-up, this entire thing was FUBARed when the delays hit. Anyone who is a Superman fan got screwed the most; like what the hell was the point of Mr. Oz aka Jor-El? The entire Tomasi & Jurgen's run depended on it; but nothing ever came of it. Luckily they are good enough writers they were able to salvage it.

    Nothing ever came about from Tim being kidnapped or all the other machinations.

    I am pretty sure this will be forgotten and handwaved away like Spider-Man's Clone Saga or Batman's Robin timeline.

    And this is coming from a guy who doesn't care at all about continuity; but when it is this egregious it cannot be ignored.

  3. #3
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    San Jose, CA
    Posts
    1,770

    Default

    Man, you and lemonpeace are about to be great friends.

  4. #4
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    1,456

    Default

    Amazing thread. I didn't even read Doomsday Clock and I see all your points very clearly.

    They definitely dropped the ball on this disaster.

  5. #5
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Posts
    682

    Default

    Really great series.

    Now Watchmen tv? Super awful.

  6. #6
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    6,023

    Default

    Oh boy. Let me guess, if it wasn't Geoff Johns who was writing this book, but someone like Grant Morrison, people on this forum would literally be singing its praises. I mean, it would be one thing if Doomsday Clock itself didn't receive very good reviews throughout its run or if #12 itself wasn't only one of two comics to sell over 100,000 copies in December. But it accomplished both of those things. These reviewer I think sum up the series pretty well:

    Overall: While it isn’t quite perfect, Doomsday Clock #12 is as good an ending to this story as you could want. It is masterfully written and illustrated, with strong themes that resonate through each and every page. Rather than being a sequel to Watchmen, this is a story about how Superman can and should inspire goodness and hope, and in turn save even a world as “too far gone” as Ozymandias, Rorschach, and Doctor Manhattan’s. This is a series that will inspire no end of debate and discussion, and even if it doesn’t impact the wider DC Universe as much as it could or, frankly, should, it is still a great work of comics art and storytelling that I will gladly return to again and again. At its core, this is a story about hope in the darkness, and at the end of Doomsday Clock, hope shines bright.
    Source: https://batman-news.com/2019/12/18/d...ock-12-review/

    This issue really should have come sooner. Doomsday Clock will be known for its constant delays and attempts at being a sequel to Watchmen. It should be remembered for being a fantastic story, and this issue hammers that home. It has great action and brings this grand ending to the series. Gary Frank’s art continues to be top form and will get praise for years to come. The problems that the story has are minuscule in comparison to the story as a whole. I highly recommend this conclusion and series for anyone who has been wanting to read this. Pick it up now and see how the DC universe changes for the better.
    Source: https://monkeysfightingrobots.co/doo...ock-12-review/

    I think they hit the nail on the head. People will judge this unfairly because of the delays, but all in all, it's actually a great story that performed well financially. Its pretty much a love letter to Superman and his role in the DCU.

  7. #7
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    580

    Default

    It certainly sold well and lot of people liked it but not for me.

    I wish they'd just forget alan moore and be themselves. Every passing year they just find new ways to pi$$ all over his work... just let it die and move on.

  8. #8
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    4,301

    Default

    Agree with basically everything said in the opening post. It's blunt but it does highlights all the major problems with the whole Doomsday Clock story and everything that lead up to it following Rebirth. So many inconsistencies and dropped plot points. The entire Wally mess is one that REALLY sticks out badly. Looking back at it retrospectively there are so many issues with it. Of course there was probably a ton of politics and fighting behind the scenes that we will never know about that caused some of them, but I still can't look past all the problems around the whole series.

    While the event sold well, and I can understand why people like all the Superman fanservice in it with him being the hope that ties every DC universe together even the Watchmen universe, I don't think the Watchmen property was the right medium to try and tell that story. It completely misses the point of the Watchmen story and Johns tried to change it to something it was never meant to be.

  9. #9
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    13,674

    Default

    I suspect that, years from now, Clock will be regarded as a solid stand alone story that probably comes as close to being worthy of a Watchmen sequel as we're likely to find, unless Moore himself shows up to pen one. And that's not to say it *is* worthy of Watchmen, but it's as close as we're gonna get.

    The biggest issues with Clock stem from the delays, which will be forgotten in time (I'm told Watchmen itself had delays too, but no one talks about it anymore), and from the fact that the wider DCU ended up having damn little to do with it. The original plan clearly changed, and tons of stuff from Rebirth was forgotten or screwed over, and stuff was tossed aside.

    In other books.

    Clock itself? It's a solid story. It might even be a great story. But only when taken on its own, in a vacuum, without considering the role it was supposed to play in the larger Rebirth narrative. When compared to Watchmen, or if you judge it by the failure of DC to capitalize on the promises of Rebirth, Clock will fail. But on its own? If you read those twelve issues and don't factor in the other stuff, it's probably the best thing Johns has ever written. The only plot point where Clock really drops the ball is with Saturn Girl, as even within its own pages that subplot ended in such a weird, cheap way it's clear this was not the original intention.

    And I actually, actively, hate virtually everything Johns does with Superman and the Trinity and I think he's one of the worst Super-writers of the modern age. And I hate the idea that all of creation revolves around Clark (he's not a god) and I hate the Kents being alive when Clark's an adult. And I'm sure both of these things will come back into the main Super books and ruin what I've been enjoying.

    But Clock, as a stand alone story, might just be excellent. Not as good as Watchmen, and it's not the savior Rebirth told us it would be. But Clock itself was a quality read.
    Last edited by Ascended; 01-21-2020 at 07:30 PM.
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

    Truth, Justice, and a Better Tomorrow!

    Bridge Four!

  10. #10
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    the internet
    Posts
    2,177

    Default

    oh god yes! thank you!



    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Man, you and lemonpeace are about to be great friends.
    Last edited by lemonpeace; 01-22-2020 at 12:54 AM.
    SIGNAL/Duke Thomas is the Midnight Sun of Gotham(respect thread)

    John Stewart is my Guardian.

    Naomi was great, pass it on...

    DC: Batman and the Outsiders, Justice League, Teen Titans, Suicide Squad, The Flash, Justice League Odyssey, Far Sector, Red Hood: Outlaws

    Marvel: Immortal Hulk, Miles Morales: Spiderman, Black Panther, X-Men (2019), Venom, X-Force

    Anticipated titles: John Ridley IV's Batman w/Luke Fox, Love Army*, The Other History of DC*

  11. #11
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    the internet
    Posts
    2,177

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Oh boy. Let me guess, if it wasn't Geoff Johns who was writing this book, but someone like Grant Morrison, people on this forum would literally be singing its praises. I mean, it would be one thing if Doomsday Clock itself didn't receive very good reviews throughout its run or if #12 itself wasn't only one of two comics to sell over 100,000 copies in December. But it accomplished both of those things. These reviewer I think sum up the series pretty well:



    Source: https://batman-news.com/2019/12/18/d...ock-12-review/



    Source: https://monkeysfightingrobots.co/doo...ock-12-review/

    I think they hit the nail on the head. People will judge this unfairly because of the delays, but all in all, it's actually a great story that performed well financially. Its pretty much a love letter to Superman and his role in the DCU.
    I can almost guarantee if Morrison wrote this story i would more likely than not absolutely hate it.

    as a story, Doomsday Clock is fine, good even i'm not gonna lie, but it's not great. characters that were pivotal at the beginning are marginally significant to its conclusion, and it introduces all these REAL tangible conflicts like civil unrest, conspiracy culture, mirroring the ongoing tension with Russia, the US's presence on the world stage and its contentious standing with the rest of the world, a metahuman [stand-in for WMDs] arms race, just to be hand waved away (Manhattan literally just raises his hands and the world resets in such a way that everything works out) by the actions of two characters that barely do anything the entire series besides have people talk about how powerful and important they are. it kicks off drawing clear parallels to Watchmen, inviting the assumption it's going to be a similar meditation of similar themes and ideas but in the end, it's just another story affirming certain comic books and the brand overall. in a vacuum on its own, I can say it's a mostly well-crafted story, the second half, particularly the ending, is where it has the most technical issues. the problem is that the story draws attention to its own existence and positions itself to be juxtaposed in a wider context; it's message literally boils down to Superman is such an inspiring figure that the metaverse (yes META, as in something making reference to it's medium and the conventions of the genre it inhabits) shapes and reshapes around him, he's the literal (literally literal) center of the universe, believe in him and it'll all be fine. that's the conclusion Doctor Manhattan comes to before wiping the metaverse and letting it reset. So if we're going to praise it for being a "love letter", an intertextual statement, then it should be critiqued for how it holds up intertextually, and it doesn't.
    SIGNAL/Duke Thomas is the Midnight Sun of Gotham(respect thread)

    John Stewart is my Guardian.

    Naomi was great, pass it on...

    DC: Batman and the Outsiders, Justice League, Teen Titans, Suicide Squad, The Flash, Justice League Odyssey, Far Sector, Red Hood: Outlaws

    Marvel: Immortal Hulk, Miles Morales: Spiderman, Black Panther, X-Men (2019), Venom, X-Force

    Anticipated titles: John Ridley IV's Batman w/Luke Fox, Love Army*, The Other History of DC*

  12. #12
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    2,159

    Default

    Whilst the story intrigues me I'm more interested in the backgriund politics that lead to the Delays. Because when both the Artist and the Writer are repeatedly saying "We're done" its all on Didio.

  13. #13
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    580

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Oh boy. Let me guess, if it wasn't Geoff Johns who was writing this book, but someone like Grant Morrison,
    Grant morrison wouldnt waste his time with watchmen unless it was as a laugh to stir the pot.

  14. #14
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    580

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    Whilst the story intrigues me I'm more interested in the backgriund politics that lead to the Delays. Because when both the Artist and the Writer are repeatedly saying "We're done" its all on Didio.
    Yes thats what i always thought. The actual good story here is the story of the commissioning and everything that followed. That would have made a great comic

  15. #15
    Astonishing Member Jekyll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    3,096

    Default

    I wish Watchmen would be left alone, not because I revere it or think it's great, but because I find it extremely tiresome and incredibly overrated.
    AKA FlashFreak
    Favorite Characters:
    DC: The Flash (Jay & Wally), The Atom (Ray Palmer) , Jack Knight, Stargirl, & Shazam!.
    MARVEL: Daredevil, Spider-Man (Peter Parker), Iron Fist, Doctor Strange, & Ant-Man (Scott Lang).

    Current Pulls: Daredevil, Amazing Spider-Man, Venom, Immortal Hulk, Guardians of The Galaxy, Ghost Rider, Dr. Strange, Star Wars,Shazam, & TMNT!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •