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  1. #16
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    I'll say this on Clock. It's last two issues are great. The problem comes from the ten previous ones, because Jonhs tried to do far too much, adding far too many players, when the core cast of Watchmen was extremely tight and the plot extremely simple, but thus extremely powerful. Doomsday Clock meander far too much, by mixing the Watchmen and larger DCU together, with new characters who serve next to no purpose (Mime and Marionette, Rorsarch II), returning characters who shouldn't have been brought back (Comedian) and a large misuse of the DCu characters, with far too many cameos.

    In fact, I'll go as far as saying that the Supermen Theory and the metahuman arm-race would make for an incredible series, because of the various geopolitcal elements it could lean into. But it'd require a lot of constant research and writers/artists/inputs from people of those countries.

    I think my problem is that until issue 11, Doomsday Clock can't even decide what is its plot.
    Last edited by Korath; 01-22-2020 at 05:40 AM.

  2. #17
    Always Rakzo
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    Best DC book from the last 2 years.

    That's all.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll View Post
    I wish Watchmen would be left alone, not because I revere it or think it's great, but because I find it extremely tiresome and incredibly overrated.
    Alan Moore agrees with you

  4. #19
    Incredible Member SixSpeedSamurai's Avatar
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    They need to just let Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns go. They were great as their own stories, but you don't need to keep trying to build off of them.
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    as a story, Doomsday Clock is fine, good even i'm not gonna lie, but it's not great. characters that were pivotal at the beginning are marginally significant to its conclusion, and it introduces all these REAL tangible conflicts like civil unrest, conspiracy culture, mirroring the ongoing tension with Russia, the US's presence on the world stage and its contentious standing with the rest of the world, a metahuman [stand-in for WMDs] arms race, just to be hand waved away (Manhattan literally just raises his hands and the world resets in such a way that everything works out) by the actions of two characters that barely do anything the entire series besides have people talk about how powerful and important they are.
    Not really. The ending issue literally closes off with:

    1) Martin Stein getting arrested for his role in the Supermen program
    2) Amanda Waller calling for impeachment of the President over the whole Supermen issue
    3) Superman brokering peace talks between the People's Heroes and the JLA
    4) Wonder Woman calling for a new iteration oath Global Guardians to encourage international cooperation
    5) The Justice Society opening an investigation into the Department of Metahuman Affairs

    So, I don't know if things are necessarily being waved away. It seems like how a lot of stories end when things like conspiracies and clandestine operations are at issue. It leaves things open-ended, which again, is a pretty common trope.

  6. #21
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    For me, I appreciated it on two levels:

    1) Study in the contrasts between Adrian and Manhattan
    2) Ode to Superman

    The story was worth it overall, as a journey moreso than an endpoint or a jumping off point for a new status quo. Its a story that never needs to be referenced again in order to move forward with the DCU.
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  7. #22
    Fantastic Member Eto's Avatar
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    I mean, the series made clear Superman is the most pivotal person in the DCU, this was Johns' intention. But yeah there are some iffy things like you've mentioned, why did Flash (be it Wally or Barry) sit this one out? Like wth.
    Ooh and WW is now the first superhero, that's not even remotely close to what this series has told the readers.
    But yeah, regardless of all the things, I loved D-Clock.
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  8. #23
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Not really. The ending issue literally closes off with:

    1) Martin Stein getting arrested for his role in the Supermen program
    2) Amanda Waller calling for impeachment of the President over the whole Supermen issue
    3) Superman brokering peace talks between the People's Heroes and the JLA
    4) Wonder Woman calling for a new iteration oath Global Guardians to encourage international cooperation
    5) The Justice Society opening an investigation into the Department of Metahuman Affairs

    So, I don't know if things are necessarily being waved away. It seems like how a lot of stories end when things like conspiracies and clandestine operations are at issue. It leaves things open-ended, which again, is a pretty common trope.
    you mean the denouement where they just exposited the resolution after the reset? an info dump is a lazy hand wave, the cardinal rule of visual medium is show don't tell, it's literally all tell and minimum show; lazy writing is common, common doesn't make it good. so yes, when you have the blue god character reset the universe or "metaverse" with a wave of his hand and then infodump how everything worked out in a denouement, the conflict of the book is literally being waved away. you can't "slow burn" for 11 issues building up conflict and then expect praise when you stuff all the conflict resolution in a couple pages of exposition; that's not "leaving things open-ended" it's simply not good storytelling. I mean look at your checklist, most (pretty much all) of these characters barely do anything on page for the majority series.
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  9. #24
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    I mean, D-Clock didn't say Superman has to be always the first superhero whenever there's a change of reality, all the potential Earths created after CoIE must hace the JSA predating him.

    I also loved the series and liked Mime, Marionnete and Reggie, but at the same time, all of them and Comedian were like fillers.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by SUPERECWFAN1 View Post

    SNIP!

    - OVERALL : Just a terrible 12 issue series that clearly was an evolving mess. If they had done this after Rebirth one shot a lot could have been different. So many things were dropped along the way and NONE OF THEM made it into Doomsday Clock. The end result is a mess and makes you question exactly where this series fits now. What is a shame is this was 2+ years of DC building to this huge event that ran over 2+ years and was such a colossal waste.
    Of course, you are entitled to your opinion, especially since everyone has their own.

    As to this mini-series: I do believe that this ambitious project helped to advance the narratives that Alan Moore had set out to do, which is the deconstruction of the hero type. In that regard, Geoff was successful: Superman is more than just a character; Superman is the foundation of the modern superhero. As such, whenever he changes, in order to fit the climate of the day, everything around him also changes. But, at the end of the day, Superman represents the best in humanity. To paraphrase a quote from the movies, "They can be a great people, Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you… my only son."

    Superman represents "hope", the literal "Man of Tomorrow". And, because of this, he was able to inspire a cynical, jaded god-being like Dr. Manhattan, who could not see past the night (i.e. with the clock striking midnight for DOOM). And thanks to being inspired, Dr. Manhattan restored past and future, which, in turn, could alter everything else around Superman (both literally and otherwise).

    Yes, Alan Moore's past works shouldn't be mined for stories, but I am willing to give DC a pass in this case. DOOMSDAY CLOCK was a good story, after all...

  11. #26
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    I think my hero academia is a better love letter to superman than doomsday clock could ever wish or hope to be. Yeah! I said it. Shots fired!!!!!! Go beyond! Plus Ultraaa!!

  12. #27
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    I think there are a lot of aspects of Doomsday Clock that were decent, but altogether it didn't exactly mesh. As a continuity fix, it (sort of) brought back the JSA and provided a cool meta-narrative of Superman/superheroes always destined to reappear, but it didn't actually seem to change anything in the broader DCU, and failed to incorporate the Flashes or Oz who were teased as essential. As political commentary, it didn't offer any useful critique of our world save some terribly ham-fisted complaint about deplorables and identity politics. As a plain story, it introduced a lot of tantalizing plot-points, but didn't follow up on them. Superman only had a few issues of agency in this story, Mime and Marionette's story was abandoned, Reggie's motivation was unclear to me, these world war 3-scale conflicts with Russia and the villains led by Adam were rushed and mostly off-panel; a lot of great ideas suffocating under the weight of the story. And while I could benefit from a re-read, I'm not sure if the meta-narratives of the TV Show meant anything significant, though I'm sure they were meant to.

  13. #28
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dswynne View Post
    Of course, you are entitled to your opinion, especially since everyone has their own.

    As to this mini-series: I do believe that this ambitious project helped to advance the narratives that Alan Moore had set out to do, which is the deconstruction of the hero type. In that regard, Geoff was successful: Superman is more than just a character; Superman is the foundation of the modern superhero. As such, whenever he changes, in order to fit the climate of the day, everything around him also changes. But, at the end of the day, Superman represents the best in humanity. To paraphrase a quote from the movies, "They can be a great people, Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you… my only son."

    Superman represents "hope", the literal "Man of Tomorrow". And, because of this, he was able to inspire a cynical, jaded god-being like Dr. Manhattan, who could not see past the night (i.e. with the clock striking midnight for DOOM). And thanks to being inspired, Dr. Manhattan restored past and future, which, in turn, could alter everything else around Superman (both literally and otherwise).

    Yes, Alan Moore's past works shouldn't be mined for stories, but I am willing to give DC a pass in this case. DOOMSDAY CLOCK was a good story, after all...
    I think the "reconstruction" of the superhero archetype was a cool approach, I just wasn't sold on Manhattan really being convinced. Nothing really happened that resonated with him in a believable way. We're talking layers and layers of jaded ambivalence. Veidt got through once with guilt, Superman gets through with a mention of his ex-girlfriend and a fairly basic speech?

  14. #29
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Yah Manhattan's big moment could look like a big of a "Martha" moment, if not for the fact that he spent all his time in the earlier issues building a huge misconception in his own mind about who Superman really was and what he was all about. But then again Manhattan has always been a bad judge of character.
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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    you mean the denouement where they just exposited the resolution after the reset? an info dump is a lazy hand wave, the cardinal rule of visual medium is show don't tell, it's literally all tell and minimum show; lazy writing is common, common doesn't make it good.
    Let me be more clear. A lot of really great, classic stories (whether they be films, books, comics, plays, etc.) engage in the same exact trope. Exposition, despite having gotten a somewhat bad rap among some readers for reasons I think are kind of bogus, is a necessity of storytelling. Stories, by their nature, are told through the perspectives of only a few select characters. Otherwise, every story would take 10 hours to tell. It's only really an issue when there is too much exposition. I mean, in Streetcar Named Desire, did we get a flashback scene showing us the loss of Belle Reve or are we just told about it?

    This story is not told through the perspective of Amanda Waller or Wonder Woman, but through the perspective of Superman, Lois, Lex, and the Watchmen characters. Also, it's largely about the "conflict" between Manhattan and Superman. So, a little bit of minor exposition that takes up one panel explaining that these consequences are still lingering doesn't really bother me.

    so yes, when you have the blue god character reset the universe or "metaverse" with a wave of his hand and then infodump how everything worked out in a denouement, the conflict of the book is literally being waved away.
    Again, the conflict was between Dr. Manhattan and Superman and the main theme was Dr. Manhattan trying to understand the DC Universe. It was also largely about how Manhattan had changed the universe because he didn't grasp the concept of personal attachment and connection. That came to a head in the final battle, which saw Manhattan realize this and bring back everyone who he'd erased. Now, granted, a lot of the characters erased were because of decisions made by higher ups that had nothing to do with this story, but that's what the creative team had to work with. And of course, there were also likely behind the scenes politics that interfered with the original vision of the story, but again, we don't know to extent to which that influenced the final product.

    I mean look at your checklist, most (pretty much all) of these characters barely do anything on page for the majority series.
    But the characters the story is actually about are.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 01-23-2020 at 03:50 PM.

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