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  1. #31
    Extraordinary Member Zero Hunter's Avatar
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    I still say to blame Johns/Frank for how Doomsday clock felt clunky is just not even close to fair. Everyone and their brother knows Didio forced the story to change when he decided to let Bendis steer the direction of the DCU and threw out whatever Johns had originally planned at the start of Rebirth forcing Johns and Frank to rewrite huge chunks of this story on the fly to fit into the new direction Bendis mapped out.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Hunter View Post
    I still say to blame Johns/Frank for how Doomsday clock felt clunky is just not even close to fair. Everyone and their brother knows Didio forced the story to change when he decided to let Bendis steer the direction of the DCU and threw out whatever Johns had originally planned at the start of Rebirth forcing Johns and Frank to rewrite huge chunks of this story on the fly to fit into the new direction Bendis mapped out.
    Agree with this.

  3. #33
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    I have a feeling that even if Bendis hadn't come aboard I would've been just as dissatisfied with Doomsday Clock. IMHO, Johns really doesn't do a whole lot more than rehash better stories from decades ago only in an incredibly pedestrian way.

    Oh wait, his stories do have a lot more decapitations in them, so there's that.
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  4. #34
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    There is a Youtuber called ComicTropes that occassionally pops into my feed and he said pretty much the same thing; that DC has a tendency to use event comics as a sort of meta narrative for editorial changes (DC wanted to slim down the DCU, so the main villain of Crisis on Infinite Earths is about a villain that destroys much of the universe). For Doomsday Clock, it was a story that gave an in-universe reason for DC to publish 'lighter' stories. Of course, DC could just publish lighter stories without a prolonged event giving them the right to do so.

    I agree with the point, though, I don't care for moralizing Watchmen and treating it as if it were a sacred cow. Yeah, it sucks that Moore doesn't have the rights his IP, but it doesn't ruin the original work if other creators take use those characters.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    Alan Moore agrees with you
    Didn't Alan Moore also say you should read or buy most of his published work too?
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  6. #36
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightning Rider View Post
    I think the "reconstruction" of the superhero archetype was a cool approach, I just wasn't sold on Manhattan really being convinced. Nothing really happened that resonated with him in a believable way. We're talking layers and layers of jaded ambivalence. Veidt got through once with guilt, Superman gets through with a mention of his ex-girlfriend and a fairly basic speech?
    I dunno. I mean, to a point yeah. But he tells this guy, who is fighting for his life against dozens of people, that he's responsible for the death of the Kents and broke time itself and essentially confesses to being the biggest threat since the Anti-Monitor. And Clark finally throws that punch we've seen coming for twelve issues and two years.....at someone else, and tells Manhattan to get off his ass and do something.

    Manhattan spent all that time expecting to be punched in the face, and knew he deserved it. And gods, he really did deserve it. And Clark still, after everything, took the high road. Has Manhattan ever in his life met anyone like that? I agree that it's still thin ice, and Manhattan's so damn jaded and cynical and locked in his role it seems unlikely such a simple act would change his mind about anything. But perhaps it's the simplicity of that act which got through to him.
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  7. #37
    Mighty Member krazijoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I dunno. I mean, to a point yeah. But he tells this guy, who is fighting for his life against dozens of people, that he's responsible for the death of the Kents and broke time itself and essentially confesses to being the biggest threat since the Anti-Monitor. And Clark finally throws that punch we've seen coming for twelve issues and two years.....at someone else, and tells Manhattan to get off his ass and do something.

    Manhattan spent all that time expecting to be punched in the face, and knew he deserved it. And gods, he really did deserve it. And Clark still, after everything, took the high road. Has Manhattan ever in his life met anyone like that? I agree that it's still thin ice, and Manhattan's so damn jaded and cynical and locked in his role it seems unlikely such a simple act would change his mind about anything. But perhaps it's the simplicity of that act which got through to him.
    Wasn't Manhattan in the dark about what was gonna happen? His powers just couldn't see past his meeting with Superman, so he just made a logical guess as to what would happen, what always happens? The outcome blew him away because what Superman jsut did was not logical and no one in their right mind would do that.
    Superman showed him what a righteous hero was and he didn't know how to cope with that...

    At least that is what I get out of it.

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Hunter View Post
    I still say to blame Johns/Frank for how Doomsday clock felt clunky is just not even close to fair. Everyone and their brother knows Didio forced the story to change when he decided to let Bendis steer the direction of the DCU and threw out whatever Johns had originally planned at the start of Rebirth forcing Johns and Frank to rewrite huge chunks of this story on the fly to fit into the new direction Bendis mapped out.
    "Everyone and their brother knows" a fan theory you have?

    Bendis is mapping out a subsection of the DC Universe. He's had his hands in the Superman books and the Teen books (Wonder Comics/Legion). Last I checked the person leading the majority of the DC universe at the moment is Snyder. The entire "Year of the Villain" initiative that took over a large chunk of the main books is directly from his lead with Batman Who Laughs and the Justice/Doom War stuff. Snyder has clearly been steering the boat at DC for a bit now.

    I get Bendis is hated but claiming he has control over the direction of the entire DCU? Come on now.
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  9. #39
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noodle View Post
    "Everyone and their brother knows" a fan theory you have?

    Bendis is mapping out a subsection of the DC Universe. He's had his hands in the Superman books and the Teen books (Wonder Comics/Legion). Last I checked the person leading the majority of the DC universe at the moment is Snyder. The entire "Year of the Villain" initiative that took over a large chunk of the main books is directly from his lead with Batman Who Laughs and the Justice/Doom War stuff. Snyder has clearly been steering the boat at DC for a bit now.

    I get Bendis is hated but claiming he has control over the direction of the entire DCU? Come on now.
    I also believe (could be wrong) that 5G was planned before Bendis came on. He's certainly had a hand in sculpting the concept for the IP's and characters he's writing, but that initiative, far as I know, predates him coming to DC. Snyder seems to be the main guy these days.
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  10. #40
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Honestly I did not so long ago think that Bendis was cultivating a primary pull capacity at DC too. I thought he was mainly responsible for 5G. But indeed more recent news makes it out that for the most part, this was more Didio's idea than I initially believed. I mean who knows, maybe Bendis finds himself in that role eventually. It wouldn't surprise me. But not there right now.
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  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I also believe (could be wrong) that 5G was planned before Bendis came on. He's certainly had a hand in sculpting the concept for the IP's and characters he's writing, but that initiative, far as I know, predates him coming to DC. Snyder seems to be the main guy these days.
    I meant the youth line in regards to Wonder Comics (Young Justice, etc), not 5G. Anything 5G is just baseless rumors right now as aside from a one-line comment in the final issue of Doomsday Clock it's never even been brought up in any confirming fashion by DC either in-story or by it's creators.
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  12. #42
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    Reading it as a stand alone story helps a lot.
    It's still a bit of a mess, but it sticks the landing with the last issues being very good.

    Regardless of what the creators are saying, I'm sure this story was BUTCHERED to fit DiDio's mysterious plans.
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  13. #43
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I dunno. I mean, to a point yeah. But he tells this guy, who is fighting for his life against dozens of people, that he's responsible for the death of the Kents and broke time itself and essentially confesses to being the biggest threat since the Anti-Monitor. And Clark finally throws that punch we've seen coming for twelve issues and two years.....at someone else, and tells Manhattan to get off his ass and do something.

    Manhattan spent all that time expecting to be punched in the face, and knew he deserved it. And gods, he really did deserve it. And Clark still, after everything, took the high road. Has Manhattan ever in his life met anyone like that? I agree that it's still thin ice, and Manhattan's so damn jaded and cynical and locked in his role it seems unlikely such a simple act would change his mind about anything. But perhaps it's the simplicity of that act which got through to him.
    That's kind of how I took it. He moved heaven and earth to manufacture himself into something Clark needed to punch-- someone he'd want above all else to beat senseless-- and Clark still acted altruistically. He clearly doesn't like Doctor Manhatten, but he's focused on how to help, not what he wants. I think that's what it comes down to in the end. Nobody truly got over themselves on his world, and yet in the DCU universe, he met someone who really did live up to his own legend-- and it dawns on him that he could have been that person too. He finds an example to live by, one he can respect. Instead of living as a puppet to his strings, he realized he too can forge destiny and that it's only set in stone if he allows things to fall into place without intervention-- like Clark, Jon can become a man of action and help.

    Is it the best development? Well, no, but the explanation in the narrative is that Superman is the DCU's best antibody against malevolent force so on a metatextual level it was always going to come down to this.

  14. #44
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    I don't think Doomsday Clock tarnishes Watchmen, but it's not great storytelling by any means. I think most people were just waiting for a resolution to the missing JSA and Legion. Unfortunately, we get yet another Legion reboot. I think, though, that JSA is still the same as it was before new 52.

    DC editorial is and has been a mess for too many years to count. They couldn't even capitalize on the success of the Wonder Woman film.

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