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  1. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    Isn't it possible that she changed her mind? Or possible that absorbing •-[A]-• did something to her? Or maybe seeing Shogo turned into a dragon made her not want to have an infant?
    Anything is possible. Anything can happen. Doesn’t make it good storytelling.

  2. #167
    Proud Krakoan Jbenito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malachi View Post
    Anything is possible. Anything can happen. Doesn’t make it good storytelling.
    Thank goodness these things are subjective.
    Boop! Krakoa forever!

  3. #168
    Fire and life incarnate! phoenixzero23's Avatar
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    I love Rogue and Gambit as a couple but this may be an unpopular opinion.
    Rogue has shown before interest on having a family that is true but she suffers a special condition that I feel makes totally undertandable to have doubts when the opportunity of actually having a kid presents. People change opinions all the time, both in real life and on these fictional works, like for example, look at Cyclops, at one point he had a view on marriage, relationships and kids but now his point of view on these matters are totally different.
    Now that Rogue is married her views on these topics and her relationship with Gambit could change a little because they are now something different. Having a kid is a huge commitment, a responsibility both characters could live up to but still be afraid and dislike on certain parts.

    With Rogue's special condition I felt like these doubts made total sense, her body has always been different to others, both a blessing and a curse. For her touching someone is an entire different experience than for 99% of the characters and people, it is more meaningful but also complicated. If something as simple as contact can be so different for her, having a kid could mean something entirely different for her than for example Storm or Jean Grey or any other woman.
    When people become parents they change a lot, their view of themselves, their relationships. Most important the kid changes who the characters are, Rogue for the moment has all these things on her mind, everybody does when the time comes.
    And for all we know this could be something temporary, just marvel playing with the drama and teasing the idea until they do it maybe some day.
    The fact that they are touching the topic is a good sign, it would have been worse if they just didn't talk about it.
    Last edited by phoenixzero23; 01-24-2020 at 05:13 PM.

  4. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    Thank goodness these things are subjective.
    I'm going to go on a limb and and actually engage you in this subject. Something I don't normally do. There is no subjectivity in what I wrote. That is just common sense. Show it, don't tell it. The age old golden rule in storytelling(especially in visual mediums this holds true even more). Don't have a character talk about some new experience that changes her previous opinions. Show us how she changes. Invite us in on the journey.

    So all the options you listed are possible and could have happened. We didn't see it though. That's what makes it bad storytelling. It's all speculation from us. However good or insightful said speculation might be.

  5. #170
    Incredible Member Ferro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixzero23 View Post
    I love Rogue and Gambit as a couple but this may be an unpopular opinion.
    Rogue has shown before interest on having a family that is true but she suffers a special condition that I feel makes totally undertandable to have doubts when the opportunity of actually having a kid presents. People change opinions all the time, both in real life and on these fictional works, like for example, look at Cyclops, at one point he had a view on marriage, relationships and kids but now his point of view on these matters are totally different.
    Now that Rogue is married her views on these topics and her relationship with Gambit could change a little because they are now something different. Having a kid is a huge commitment, a responsibility both characters could live up to but still be afraid and dislike on certain parts.

    With Rogue's special condition I felt like these doubts made total sense, her body has always been different to others, both a blessing and a curse. For her touching someone is an entire different experience than for 99% of the characters and people, it is more meaningful but also complicated. If something as simple as contact can be so different for her, having a kid could mean something entirely different for her than for example Storm or Jean Grey or any other woman.
    When people become parents they change a lot, their view of themselves, their relationships. Most important the kid changes who the characters are, Rogue for the moment as all these things on her mind, everybody does when the time comes.
    And for all we know this could be something temporary, just marvel playing with the drama and teasing the idea until they do it maybe some day.
    The fact that they are touching the topic is a good sign, it would have been worse if they just didn't talk about it.
    i think if her new opinion was presented as a change of mind now that she has a sense of security and choice, but it reads like she felt this way before, wich simply wouldnt be true.

  6. #171
    Proud Krakoan Jbenito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malachi View Post
    I'm going to go on a limb and and actually engage you in this subject. Something I don't normally do. There is no subjectivity in what I wrote. That is just common sense. Show it, don't tell it. The age old golden rule in storytelling(especially in visual mediums this holds true even more). Don't have a character talk about some new experience that changes her previous opinions. Show us how she changes. Invite us in on the journey.

    So all the options you listed are possible and could have happened. We didn't see it though. That's what makes it bad storytelling. It's all speculation from us. However good or insightful said speculation might be.
    One's idea of "bad storytelling" is not another's. That's what is subjective. None of us know if this subject will be resurfacing although many, including myself, believe it will. Any of the possibilities I threw out I meant as potential future subjects to be seen. That's what I was saying. I don't think we've seen the last of •-[A]-•'s influence from Rogue's absorption of him.

    In any case, she said she didn't currently feel comfortable having children. That's enough for me even if it isn't for others. That's subjective.
    Boop! Krakoa forever!

  7. #172
    Ultimate Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferro View Post
    i think if her new opinion was presented as a change of mind now that she has a sense of security and choice, but it reads like she felt this way before, wich simply wouldnt be true.
    This really clashes with the previous chaaracterizations

  8. #173
    Astonishing Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    That's subjective.
    You're avoiding the conversation Malachi presented. Taste is subjective. Storytelling is an art, which can be debated, judged, and given worth.

  9. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    You're avoiding the conversation Malachi presented. Taste is subjective. Storytelling is an art, which can be debated, judged, and given worth.
    Because Malachi misinterpreted what I said. They thought I meant we should just fill in the gaps with our imagination and move on, but that's not what I said. I agree that that is bad storytelling. But I said maybe there are reasons for Rogue's decision that haven't been revealed yet. She did just come off a power high and we all know full well that things tend to circle back in comics.
    Boop! Krakoa forever!

  10. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixzero23 View Post
    I love Rogue and Gambit as a couple but this may be an unpopular opinion.
    Rogue has shown before interest on having a family that is true but she suffers a special condition that I feel makes totally undertandable to have doubts when the opportunity of actually having a kid presents. People change opinions all the time, both in real life and on these fictional works, like for example, look at Cyclops, at one point he had a view on marriage, relationships and kids but now his point of view on these matters are totally different.
    Now that Rogue is married her views on these topics and her relationship with Gambit could change a little because they are now something different. Having a kid is a huge commitment, a responsibility both characters could live up to but still be afraid and dislike on certain parts.

    With Rogue's special condition I felt like these doubts made total sense, her body has always been different to others, both a blessing and a curse. For her touching someone is an entire different experience than for 99% of the characters and people, it is more meaningful but also complicated. If something as simple as contact can be so different for her, having a kid could mean something entirely different for her than for example Storm or Jean Grey or any other woman.
    When people become parents they change a lot, their view of themselves, their relationships. Most important the kid changes who the characters are, Rogue for the moment has all these things on her mind, everybody does when the time comes.
    And for all we know this could be something temporary, just marvel playing with the drama and teasing the idea until they do it maybe some day.
    The fact that they are touching the topic is a good sign, it would have been worse if they just didn't talk about it.
    But they're not explaining ANY of this.

    If Rogue said something like "Ah Known just a few months ago ah told you ah wanted kids, but with me never knowing if ah will lose my ability to control my powers,I don't want to hope anymore. It hurts too much. Ah'd be no good with a kid." then I'd be happy.

    But no character exploration was taken. Did she even read the last few Rogue books (UA, Gambit and Rogue, and Mrs and Mr X)? Cause the only thing she's acknowledge from those runs is the fact that R&G are tight.

  11. #176
    Proud Krakoan Jbenito's Avatar
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    This was just brought up in the Rogue/Gambit thread and I'm still very curious as to what she was referring to...

    Boop! Krakoa forever!

  12. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    One's idea of "bad storytelling" is not another's. That's what is subjective. None of us know if this subject will be resurfacing although many, including myself, believe it will. Any of the possibilities I threw out I meant as potential future subjects to be seen. That's what I was saying. I don't think we've seen the last of •-[A]-•'s influence from Rogue's absorption of him.

    In any case, she said she didn't currently feel comfortable having children. That's enough for me even if it isn't for others. That's subjective.
    There is bad storytelling. I just listed a prime exemple of it. Not because I think so based on any personal bias. The "Show it, don't tell it" is used for a good reason. When you write you don't enter some lawless jungle where it's all subjective. There is good writing and bad writing. This is a classic example. In screenwriting it's often talked about.

    I'm not writing this for any other reason then that this is a well established fact. You and I might like or dislike a story based on premises that are subjective. That is both rewarding and frustrating sometimes to discus. The fact that bad storytelling exist and the example I gave are not something to discus. We can find countless other scenes that are just bad storytelling in comics. It's not a perfect industry.

    To make it perfectly clear. I'm not questioning your enjoyment, the validity of your speculation or the right to speculate. I'm saying there is bad storytelling. Now whatever you do with that or how it affects you is for you to decide.

  13. #178
    Astonishing Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Your comment about screenwriting is something I wish we at CBR took more seriously when we discuss comic stories. ESPECIALLY given the six issue trade format that’s seemingly forced on writers. We SHOULD be discussing character arcs, 3 act structures, fat-trimming, tone, pace, everything films get... these books are basically storyboards.

  14. #179
    Proud Krakoan Jbenito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malachi View Post
    There is bad storytelling. I just listed a prime exemple of it. Not because I think so based on any personal bias. The "Show it, don't tell it" is used for a good reason. When you write you don't enter some lawless jungle where it's all subjective. There is good writing and bad writing. This is a classic example. In screenwriting it's often talked about.

    I'm not writing this for any other reason then that this is a well established fact. You and I might like or dislike a story based on premises that are subjective. That is both rewarding and frustrating sometimes to discus. The fact that bad storytelling exist and the example I gave are not something to discus. We can find countless other scenes that are just bad storytelling in comics. It's not a perfect industry.

    To make it perfectly clear. I'm not questioning your enjoyment, the validity of your speculation or the right to speculate. I'm saying there is bad storytelling. Now whatever you do with that or how it affects you is for you to decide.
    I agree with you that the reader having to fill in the blanks to make sense of a story is bad storytelling. So maybe I should have been more clear when I was responding to spirit because what I meant was that perhaps we haven't seen the last of the subject and the reasoning for her decision. Similar to how many believed Krakoa doesn't allow humans and that was a fact to them, end of story. We then see the first glance of X-Factor and there's Kyle in a Krakoan kitchen (something Leah has had in the works for 8-9 months), and we hear Tini and Leah are working on a story dedicated to humans living on the island. So my point was things come back around and maybe there are unknown reasons at play here especially considering who Rogue just absorbed. That's what I thought you were calling bad storytelling. But that's my fault for not being clear on that.
    Boop! Krakoa forever!

  15. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    I agree with you that the reader having to fill in the blanks to make sense of a story is bad storytelling. So maybe I should have been more clear when I was responding to spirit because what I meant was that perhaps we haven't seen the last of the subject and the reasoning for her decision. Similar to how many believed Krakoa doesn't allow humans and that was a fact to them, end of story. We then see the first glance of X-Factor and there's Kyle in a Krakoan kitchen (something Leah has had in the works for 8-9 months), and we hear Tini and Leah are working on a story dedicated to humans living on the island. So my point was things come back around and maybe there are unknown reasons at play here especially considering who Rogue just absorbed. That's what I thought you were calling bad storytelling. But that's my fault for not being clear on that.
    In some senses I hate forums because it's not an optimal format to express your opinion. If we met person to person this would have been over extremly quickly and both us would have gotten our points across better.

    On your previous subject Tini has left it open how much -A- influenced Rogue. It's clear in the first pages so it wouldn't surpise me to see it revisted. Or that it influenced scenes after she got de-apocalypsed... or whatever we might call it.

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