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  1. #1
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    Default Jonathan vs Conner

    Hello,

    I must say looking at the careers of the two I become more and more frustrated.

    Conner had a hard time to prove himself worthy to carry the S and he had to prove himself many times.
    Jonathan had it easier.

    Conner is Kryptonian-Human and he will probably never be as powerful as Clark (if you dont consider the TTK which can eventually be used as Power Boost), while Jonathan is Kryptonian-Human and will probably even be more powerful than his father.

    Conner had to prove himself worthy to be in the Legion, Jonathan is invited.

    Jonathan will be Superman one day, Kara will also have a great career and Conner seems to be stuck.

    I am not sure what the Status of IC will be, but Conner is not as muscular as he was, nobody seems to remember that he saved many lives and dying.



    For me it seems almost as if Conners Career is like a circle and he is back there where he was before TT started, while Jonathan accomplish in few years what Conner couldnt in almost 20 years.

  2. #2
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    Neither Jon nor Conner has to be Superman.

  3. #3
    Astonishing Member sifighter's Avatar
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    Well in a manner of speaking it’s kind of like the dichotomy of Damian and Tim. Both were Robin around the same time and are important to Bruce but the main difference is Damian is Batman’s biological child which will make a bit of difference in both character and development, both in and out of universe. As much as I like Conner, I also like Jon who is different because he is Superman’s actual son who he raised and trained as he grew up(except for the time jump), where as Conner is the clone of Superman who has become through good character progression more of a brother to Superman but has always done things his way as his own person.

    But you know what, it’s ok because Conner can be different then Jon. Maybe Jon will be Superboy from now on and will go on to be Superman, but that just means it’s fine to let Conner grow and become his own character with a lot of history and connections to the Superfamily. What that will end up being we will just have to wait and see.
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  4. #4
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    I don't understand the comparison. Jon got invited to legion because of his contribution as the one who came up with the idea of united planets.it was sortof a payoff for the shit he went through on his journey in space and everywhere else.

    Saturn girl even says so.
    Being son of superman isn't exactly risk free. The kid got tortured and kidnapped by every other villains including his own grandpa. Jon isn't as powerful as clark he got scars to prove it. Jon and conner have nothing in common. Even jon and clark have more in common.As for the s, well it was given to him for protecting lois in lois and clark. He even tried to fly before falling on his face. And He was what? 7 or 8.


    Conner's lack of direction is because he is stuck in young justice book hoping universes. Jon at the moment is expendable. Conner would never be that.he had multiple media appearances last year.
    I will admit jon is privileged. He is as privileged as clark was.
    I would like jon to be someone who gets hurt and keeps on coming. Not the man of steel who never gets hurt. I don't want jon to have telekinesis or whatever. He should be some one good at hand to hand and street smart, finally learn to use a sword. Bring on the Superman sword.
    Jon and conner have nothing in common. Jon is quirky, energetic, ball of energy And conner is a cool, ladies man, city boy.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 01-22-2020 at 09:55 AM.

  5. #5
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    I think what I'm looking forward to the most with Conner is getting to see what he decides to do and become next. He's a fascinating idea because from 'birth' he was labeled and given a script to follow. They slapped a label on his chest and told him he was a clone, and that he had a baseline template of exactly what he was supposed to function like as a person. And it's not like Jon in the sense of living up to a legacy, no. It's not that simple. He'd have literally been marked a failure if he didn't emulate Superman. Whatever genuine version of him that could've been possible without being told "THIS IS WHO YOU ARE AND SHOULD BE" remains in question because some part of him would think "but would Superman do this?"

    One of the most powerful lines out of Johns' version of the character was when he got the email about being half Lex Luthor, but he wasn't accepting it, so he told Tim that it was fake and that "my genetics are all I have". That line always stuck with me because even though he's obviously proud of being part of the family in every sense, there's still this part of him that lines up who he his on a *fundamental level* based off some else.

    For me, Conner becoming Superman eventually has never really made much sense as something he eventually decides for himself. He always struck me as guy quietly dreading the day he'd have to fill the boots--the day he'd have to compete his pre scripted reason for life and be someone else, but always putting on a facade of confidence and self absurdness. So, I'm glad we're moving into real uncharted waters here with him, and I hope DC allows itself to be bold.
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  6. #6
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    They are completely different characters and the only thing they have in common is half their DNA.

    Conner is not Clark’s son. He’s a Clone. He was created without Clark’s consent (and the consent piece is actually really important and something fandom glosses over far too much btw) and he has different struggles and a different relationship to Clark because of this fact. The relationship often resembled more of a brother relationship/extended family vs. parent/child and that’s why.

    Jonathan is the much wanted child of Lois and Clark. The presence of his mother alone makes him a distinct character as there is a female influence on his upbringing that Conner does not have. Clark raises him from infancy which very naturally changes the dynamic.

    Putting the two boys against each other is pointless because they are completely different characters. Neither of them have to be Superman and both will go their own path. Jon’s path, should, under the right writing, be equally influenced by his mother. But neither of them have to do anything and are going to feel unique pressure. If anything, the pressure on Jon is unique distinctly because he’s the dream child of this golden couple etc. There is plenty of pressure to go around.
    Last edited by Nelliebly; 01-22-2020 at 12:35 PM.

  7. #7
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Jon's journey as a character parallels Conner's in the sense that because of who they are they feel the weight of the legacy of Superman. But in Jon's case it's going into the family business, and in Conner's case it's completing what his design promised. Their issues with making the choice are very different. Conner has to decide how much of that choice is him and how much is the label put on him before birth. Jon articulates his issues perfectly when he asks why him. He's not a clone of his father nor was created specifically to take up this task, thus his question is "why me". One is an issue of finding identity, and the other is an issue of finding confidence.
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  8. #8
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Neither Jon nor Conner has to be Superman.
    Doesn't mean jon can't dream of being superman. The kid had been dreaming it, nonstop no matter who wrote him. Supersons concept is based on the father-son relationship and rivalry.

  9. #9
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    I'm with Superlad on this.

    I think the best thing to ever happen to Conner is Jon showing up. Now, for the first time ever in Conner's life and publication history, he gets to be his own person without all the pressure of being the next Superman. He can forge his own path without guilt, without having to worry about leaving the world without a champion.

    Now he can do what Dick Grayson and Jason Todd have done; make his own way and be his own person. And I am very excited about what that might look like.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Doesn't mean jon can't dream of being superman. The kid had been dreaming it, nonstop no matter who wrote him. Supersons concept is based on the father-son relationship and rivalry.
    I really like the implied arc in how Jon viewed being Superman Tomasi's Superman to Bendis' Superman issue 16.

    It's kind of bookended by having Jon scared that he'd be an awful Superman in Man of Steel issue 6/Superman issue 8 and him, in almost quite confidence, smile and answering "yeah, almost" to Damian saying that he's almost Superman. That's directly opposite to when Lobo came up to Jon calling him "little Superman", and Jon was quick to correct him demanding to be called Superboy.

    He's not totally there yet, but I really dig the background progress.
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  11. #11
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    I don't like the concept of legacy for Superman as a whole, because I'm very invested in, well, Clark! Kal-El! You know... Superman!

    I like Kon, I like Jon, but I don't want either of them to be framed in a way that eclipses the Real Steel Deal, which is something I'm concerned has happened with Jon a tad. The Legion's total lack of interest in Kal compared to Jon is one indication, for example.

    And I just don't like the idea that Superman could ever be replaced, really. I know there's a handful of really cool stories out there that allude to the Superman Dynasty or whatever, but being real, none of those characters ever really get close enough to Kal for me to worry about them. Jon is starting to be in that position a little. Kon had a buffer because like people said, being Superman isn't really something he ever wanted to happen to him, at least not once he was mature enough to think about it seriously. Jon doesn't necessarily have that same buffer. I'm a little worried Bendis might do an arc where Clark retires from Superman to focus on space-politics or something, and gives Jon the Superman title. It might be interesting! But I don't think I would be too happy about such a development.
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  12. #12
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    I don't like the concept of legacy for Superman as a whole, because I'm very invested in, well, Clark! Kal-El! You know... Superman!

    I like Kon, I like Jon, but I don't want either of them to be framed in a way that eclipses the Real Steel Deal, which is something I'm concerned has happened with Jon a tad. The Legion's total lack of interest in Kal compared to Jon is one indication, for example.

    And I just don't like the idea that Superman could ever be replaced, really. I know there's a handful of really cool stories out there that allude to the Superman Dynasty or whatever, but being real, none of those characters ever really get close enough to Kal for me to worry about them. Jon is starting to be in that position a little. Kon had a buffer because like people said, being Superman isn't really something he ever wanted to happen to him, at least not once he was mature enough to think about it seriously. Jon doesn't necessarily have that same buffer. I'm a little worried Bendis might do an arc where Clark retires from Superman to focus on space-politics or something, and gives Jon the Superman title. It might be interesting! But I don't think I would be too happy about such a development.
    Well, 5G is happening. So, who knows what they are doing. Either way i am willing to wait.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    I don't understand the comparison. Jon got invited to legion because of his contribution as the one who came up with the idea of united planets.it was sortof a payoff for the shit he went through on his journey in space and everywhere else.

    Saturn girl even says so.
    Being son of superman isn't exactly risk free. The kid got tortured and kidnapped by every other villains including his own grandpa. Jon isn't as powerful as clark he got scars to prove it. Jon and conner have nothing in common. Even jon and clark have more in common.As for the s, well it was given to him for protecting lois in lois and clark. He even tried to fly before falling on his face. And He was what? 7 or 8.

    Conner's lack of direction is because he is stuck in young justice book hoping universes. Jon at the moment is expendable. Conner would never be that.he had multiple media appearances last year.
    I will admit jon is privileged. He is as privileged as clark was.
    I would like jon to be someone who gets hurt and keeps on coming. Not the man of steel who never gets hurt. I don't want jon to have telekinesis or whatever. He should be some one good at hand to hand and street smart, finally learn to use a sword. Bring on the Superman sword.
    Jon and conner have nothing in common. Jon is quirky, energetic, ball of energy And conner is a cool, ladies man, city boy.
    The comparison makes sense as both have the same Code-Name and both "sons" of Clark, who are both half-human, half kryptonian.
    Its like comparing two Robins.

    The "not being as powerful as Clark" is difficult.
    This is one of my main points of criticism: It was implied that Conner will never be as powerful as Clark, because he is half-human.
    BUT! then Jon was born and BATMAN!! stated that he will be more powerful as Clark, because of his Hybrid DNA.

    My main point of criticism is that Jon is now there since 2015 and his career is completely straight forward and we are talking now about him as new Superman, while Conner is now seemingly back as where he was before joining TT.

    Jonathan seems to be more successfull now as Conner is, even Conner is much longer around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    They are completely different characters and the only thing they have in common is half their DNA.

    Conner is not Clark’s son. He’s a Clone. He was created without Clark’s consent (and the consent piece is actually really important and something fandom glosses over far too much btw) and he has different struggles and a different relationship to Clark because of this fact. The relationship often resembled more of a brother relationship/extended family vs. parent/child and that’s why.

    Jonathan is the much wanted child of Lois and Clark. The presence of his mother alone makes him a distinct character as there is a female influence on his upbringing that Conner does not have. Clark raises him from infancy which very naturally changes the dynamic.

    Putting the two boys against each other is pointless because they are completely different characters. Neither of them have to be Superman and both will go their own path. Jon’s path, should, under the right writing, be equally influenced by his mother. But neither of them have to do anything and are going to feel unique pressure. If anything, the pressure on Jon is unique distinctly because he’s the dream child of this golden couple etc. There is plenty of pressure to go around.
    Conner had Martha Kent and for a while also Jonathan Kent...

    But I am not talking about that...

    As I explain down I am talking about:

    1. Rules: Are Hybrids stronger as fully Kryptonians like it was implied in Jons Case or weaker as it was implied in Conners Case?


    2. Carrer: Conner is around since more than 20 years and Jon since 4 years...
    Jonathans Career in this 4 years was seemingly always straight forward, never stopping, at full speed.

    In Conners case, at the other hand, it seems for me that he is now back where he was, BEFORE he joined the TT and IC happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by sifighter View Post
    Well in a manner of speaking it’s kind of like the dichotomy of Damian and Tim. Both were Robin around the same time and are important to Bruce but the main difference is Damian is Batman’s biological child which will make a bit of difference in both character and development, both in and out of universe. As much as I like Conner, I also like Jon who is different because he is Superman’s actual son who he raised and trained as he grew up(except for the time jump), where as Conner is the clone of Superman who has become through good character progression more of a brother to Superman but has always done things his way as his own person.

    But you know what, it’s ok because Conner can be different then Jon. Maybe Jon will be Superboy from now on and will go on to be Superman, but that just means it’s fine to let Conner grow and become his own character with a lot of history and connections to the Superfamily. What that will end up being we will just have to wait and see.
    Yes, but thats really NOT the point...

    What I am talking about is

    1.) The "rules"
    So far it wasn't explicit said but kind of implied that Conner will probably never be as powerful as Clark, because he is half human.
    Now as Jon showed up, Batman stated that Jon will probably be more powerful than Clark, because Jon is a Hybrid.

    From a biological point of view both are very similar...Both are half-human and half-kryptonian..

    2. The "career"

    Conner needed long time to become what he is now. He had his ups and downs etc.
    And now he is seemingly back to the start again with Young Justice.

    Jonathan on the other hand had a career with only ups..
    Jonathan appeared first 2015!!!!!!! and in this 4 years his career rocketed and he will now become the next Superman.

  14. #14
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post
    The comparison makes sense as both have the same Code-Name and both "sons" of Clark, who are both half-human, half kryptonian.
    Its like comparing two Robins.

    The "not being as powerful as Clark" is difficult.
    This is one of my main points of criticism: It was implied that Conner will never be as powerful as Clark, because he is half-human.
    BUT! then Jon was born and BATMAN!! stated that he will be more powerful as Clark, because of his Hybrid DNA.

    My main point of criticism is that Jon is now there since 2015 and his career is completely straight forward and we are talking now about him as new Superman, while Conner is now seemingly back as where he was before joining TT.

    Jonathan seems to be more successfull now as Conner is, even Conner is much longer around.
    Jon is a natural birth. Conner is Clark's brother who was raised by kents. If the title "superboy" is the reason, More apt comparison would be clark and conner. They were both sons of kents. They both became superboys.
    Hybrid vigour thing is more of a boost than permanent state. If at all it is ever going to be touched upon. Rogol zarr is the only other hybrid natural born kryptonIan. The only advantage jon has over a full kryptonIan might be his ability maintain strength with regular food and not need sunlight. Because he was able to use his strength even after being stuck in a volcano for years. But, i don't think he metabolises sun radiation better than conner and not even close to clark or kara.
    So, what? As said. Dc views jon as expendable. Not conner. If and when 5G fails. Jon would be sent of into his own universe. Or worse erased. They might not even use jon in a new universe after 5G.(i am optimistic. But, there is a chance). Conner doesn't need that kind of importance, trust me.
    Credit for any success of jon goes to jurgens, tomasi and Gleason The writers who made the character. Not to mention morrison and his Damian wayne who paved the way. the concept of supersons thought out by Bob Haney and Dick Dillin. Also, for alan moore who created the first jon the son of superman. Jon didn't come about in a vacuum. It took a lot of good ideas to get together to form the character.

  15. #15
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    Would it be bad if one sacrifice their life to save the other in the case of Jon vs Conner ?

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