Jonathan vs Conner

[Ascended]

Would it be bad if one sacrifice their life to save the other in the case of Jon vs Conner ?

Yes. It would piss off the fandom a lot and be a clear statement by DC that one matters more than the other.

Besides, there's no real reason for something like that. Clark's family of legacies is pretty small; Jon, Kara, Conner. We can include Steel and Power Girl but neither have been a part of Clark's world for a long time. Now, I'm one of those fans who thinks Superman should largely remain a singular being; we don't need an army of child Super soldiers running around like we have a billion Robins and Batgirls. Superman should be...bigger, he shouldn't be something you can legit join up with or sidekick for. But that thematic resonance goes against marketing and business sense (the "S" sells, so you use the "S" more and offer alternatives to pull in more customers, like Diet Coke and Coke Zero). But we don't have so many legacies we need to cull them, and both Jon and Conner offer unique perspectives that can fuel stories.

Wiping Conner of the board for Jon was questionable enough (though I understand wanting one single Superboy for fans to focus on while Jon got his feet under him). Killing one off wouldn't do the fandom or DC many favors. At least not long term. A temporary death can be good for business, but nothing more permanent.

[manwhohaseverything]

Yes. It would piss off the fandom a lot and be a clear statement by DC that one matters more than the other.

Besides, there's no real reason for something like that. Clark's family of legacies is pretty small; Jon, Kara, Conner. We can include Steel and Power Girl but neither have been a part of Clark's world for a long time. Now, I'm one of those fans who thinks Superman should largely remain a singular being; we don't need an army of child Super soldiers running around like we have a billion Robins and Batgirls. Superman should be...bigger, he shouldn't be something you can legit join up with or sidekick for. But that thematic resonance goes against marketing and business sense (the "S" sells, so you use the "S" more and offer alternatives to pull in more customers, like Diet Coke and Coke Zero). But we don't have so many legacies we need to cull them, and both Jon and Conner offer unique perspectives that can fuel stories.

Wiping Conner of the board for Jon was questionable enough (though I understand wanting one single Superboy for fans to focus on while Jon got his feet under him). Killing one off wouldn't do the fandom or DC many favors. At least not long term. A temporary death can be good for business, but nothing more permanent.

Lor-zod is still around. He could come over to the light side too.
As for sidekicking, i don't think so. Jimmy was superman's sidekick. I think anyone can be superman's sidekick you just have to follow his message . it wouldn't be like standard sidekick kind of relationship. I see both bibbo and jimmy as superman's sidekicks that spread superman's message. Ofcourse, jon is 'proper' sidekick to superman. But, he is a superson. Btw, someone told me wally was actually based on jimmy. Now, that blew my mind. All this while i never knew that.
But, i do think clark needs biiiig, colorful, diverse in look and feel cast. It should be an arc, Clark coming out of his shell. Heck! Him being loner and stuck with a bunch wierd cast would be awesome and funny.

[Adekis]

Yes. It would piss off the fandom a lot and be a clear statement by DC that one matters more than the other.

Besides, there's no real reason for something like that. Clark's family of legacies is pretty small; Jon, Kara, Conner. We can include Steel and Power Girl but neither have been a part of Clark's world for a long time. Now, I'm one of those fans who thinks Superman should largely remain a singular being; we don't need an army of child Super soldiers running around like we have a billion Robins and Batgirls. Superman should be...bigger, he shouldn't be something you can legit join up with or sidekick for. But that thematic resonance goes against marketing and business sense (the "S" sells, so you use the "S" more and offer alternatives to pull in more customers, like Diet Coke and Coke Zero). But we don't have so many legacies we need to cull them, and both Jon and Conner offer unique perspectives that can fuel stories.

Wiping Conner of the board for Jon was questionable enough (though I understand wanting one single Superboy for fans to focus on while Jon got his feet under him). Killing one off wouldn't do the fandom or DC many favors. At least not long term. A temporary death can be good for business, but nothing more permanent.

Yeah, I agree. I know I made clear in my last post that I don't care for the idea of Jon, but killing him off would be a Really Big Mistake™. Rather, I just want him relegated to a more obviously secondary role that suits him well, while making clear he's never going to replace Kal as the Ultimate Hero, Superman.

Alllso, I know this is a dead horse, but Kon and Jon should probably have different code names. Maybe Kon could just be Kon-El like he was for a weird while in the mid '00s. You know, like Mon-El. Except that Mon isn't Mon's real name, but, er... whatever.

(also also I want Steel to come back. I have no idea what happened to Superwoman but I liked that there was a book keeping him in the loop for a while, and I legit miss the days when he was Superman's... not partner, not sidekick, but maybe closest professional ally and a good friend.)

[manwhohaseverything]

Yeah, I agree. I know I made clear in my last post that I don't care for the idea of Jon, but killing him off would be a Really Big Mistake™. Rather, I just want him relegated to a more obviously secondary role that suits him well, while making clear he's never going to replace Kal as the Ultimate Hero, Superman.

Alllso, I know this is a dead horse, but Kon and Jon should probably have different code names. Maybe Kon could just be Kon-El like he was for a weird while in the mid '00s. You know, like Mon-El. Except that Mon isn't Mon's real name, but, er... whatever.

(also also I want Steel to come back. I have no idea what happened to Superwoman but I liked that there was a book keeping him in the loop for a while, and I legit miss the days when he was Superman's... not partner, not sidekick, but maybe closest professional ally and a good friend.)

I don't want giving upon his ambition. Jon has a shonen protagonist thing going on. He might not achieve it cause comics.but i like that the character has a clear vision on what he wants to be and dreams of it.

[Superlad93]

I don't want giving upon his ambition. Jon has a shonen protagonist thing going on. He might not achieve it cause comics.but i like that the character has a clear vision on what he wants to be and dreams of it.

There is something really endearing about Jon having a goal for when he grows up. And it's unlike Damian in the sense that he doesn't even remotely feel like he's owed the title just because of who his dad is. It started off as a child's lofty dream (like becoming an astronaut or the President), then the reality of the idea stalled his ambition for a while, and now with a sobering glimpse of what he's made of and new sense of confidence he's picking himself back on track to what he may one day become.

Classic hero's journey. I keep saying that it's gonna be particularly fascinating to look back at Jon's journey in the backgrounds and in other books of this run and see a long and consistently growing origin story for a Superman.

[Ascended]

I don't want giving upon his ambition. Jon has a shonen protagonist thing going on. He might not achieve it cause comics.but i like that the character has a clear vision on what he wants to be and dreams of it.

Agreed. I don't need to see Jon actually realize this dream, (didn't do Gohan much good in the end, either) but I am perfectly fine with Jon being the heir apparent and working towards that goal. I'm fine with stories set in the future establishing him as a successful, capable Superman. I just don't want or need the books to ever reach that point in time.

[Masterff]

Yes. It would piss off the fandom a lot and be a clear statement by DC that one matters more than the other.

Besides, there's no real reason for something like that. Clark's family of legacies is pretty small; Jon, Kara, Conner. We can include Steel and Power Girl but neither have been a part of Clark's world for a long time. Now, I'm one of those fans who thinks Superman should largely remain a singular being; we don't need an army of child Super soldiers running around like we have a billion Robins and Batgirls. Superman should be...bigger, he shouldn't be something you can legit join up with or sidekick for. But that thematic resonance goes against marketing and business sense (the "S" sells, so you use the "S" more and offer alternatives to pull in more customers, like Diet Coke and Coke Zero). But we don't have so many legacies we need to cull them, and both Jon and Conner offer unique perspectives that can fuel stories.

Wiping Conner of the board for Jon was questionable enough (though I understand wanting one single Superboy for fans to focus on while Jon got his feet under him). Killing one off wouldn't do the fandom or DC many favors. At least not long term. A temporary death can be good for business, but nothing more permanent.

For Conner there exists a position which I think would give him many fans and many fans would enjoy and read the Comics:

Clark is one of the "Flagship characters of DC" BUT I heard from many people that they dont like him so much, because he is always the good, perfect guy.

Conner could fill the position of a younger, cooler, Version of Superman who has a different attitude.

Its like Batman and Nightwing, Son Goku and Vegeta...

[walk]

I don't really get these discussions when it comes to legacy heroes/side-kicks taking over the mantle as besides a few exceptions it's merely a far-off concept at best not something editorial will ever implement long-term at least not with any of their big heroes, I doubt they'll ever be a point where Clark isn't Superman in some capacity.

There's really no end-goal or culmination of success to Jon or Conner "career's" because comics are never-ending and as with all spin-off characters the goal is rarely ever to outright replace a current popular hero but rather take the spirit/concept of the originator to tell new stories from a different perspectives with to gain more profit.

I will say Geoff Johns retcon of Conner making him become so defined by his genetics always felt like a regression to me. One of the clever things Karl Kessel did was despite being genetically made to be a replacement Superman and early on being very insistent on one day becoming the big S that gradually fell to wayside the more of his own life he started to forge through gaining friends/family and carving out his own way in the world to the point that when the whole Paul Westfield revelation happens to turn his previous beliefs upside-down it does little to dent him as he's since become confident and comfortable in his own person who's proud to wear the S but still isn't defined by it or where his DNA came from.

As for Jon I think one of the subtle things Tomsai was doing with him was showing that despite having a rather typical boyish wish to become just like his dad when he grows up it'd be something that would've become increasingly less so as time went on and he started to develop his own outlooks and personal beliefs in the world. Two moments always stood out to me, when he kills the creature attacking the town and while Clark lambasted him for taking life the towns people themselves disagree and tell he did the right thing and Jon himself is left not too conflicted over his decision, the other was when he's shown a potential future where its almost an exact carbon copy of his father's life and he notably rejects it as something he doesn't want.

Don't think Bendis fast-tracking the kids life to try and hit all the major milestone before his runs over will leave much of an impression if Jon's forming of the United Planets is any indication, what should be this momentous occasion brought about through years of seeing Jon's escapades in space and taking his father's belief in a hope for a better world and evolving it, one of those defining comic moments that'll be referenced for years and be adapted into other mediums.... but its not. Jon's grand adventure is told completely second-hand and the idea is just something he just comes up with on the spot, there no sense of weight or resonance to any of it despite everyone now insisting how wonderful and admirable he has become, I'd imagine all the other big moments Bendis has planned with him will fall equally flat, afterall it's the journey not the destination.

[Flash Gordon]

I'd rather Conner go off and do his own thing. A real punk rock YOUNG SUPERMAN book with Conner that's a lot more "Young Animal" in spirit and tone, would be the move.

Since SUPERMAN is so focused on Superman's nuclear family, ACTION COMICS on Clark's newspaper job- it would be rad to have a book that bears the \S/ but is different in scope and feel and audience.

[manwhohaseverything]

As for Jon I think one of the subtle things Tomsai was doing with him was showing that despite having a rather typical boyish wish to become just like his dad when he grows up it'd be something that would've become increasingly less so as time went on and he started to develop his own outlooks and personal beliefs in the world. Two moments always stood out to me, when he kills the creature attacking the town and while Clark lambasted him for taking life the towns people themselves disagree and tell he did the right thing and Jon himself is left not too conflicted over his decision, the other was when he's shown a potential future where its almost an exact carbon copy of his father's life and he notably rejects it as something he doesn't want.

Don't think Bendis fast-tracking the kids life to try and hit all the major milestone before his runs over will leave much of an impression if Jon's forming of the United Planets is any indication, what should be this momentous occasion brought about through years of seeing Jon's escapades in space and taking his father's belief in a hope for a better world and evolving it, one of those defining comic moments that'll be referenced for years and be adapted into other mediums.... but its not. Jon's grand adventure is told completely second-hand and the idea is just something he just comes up with on the spot, there no sense of weight or resonance to any of it despite everyone now insisting how wonderful and admirable he has become, I'd imagine all the other big moments Bendis has planned with him will fall equally flat, afterall it's the journey not the destination.

You just forgot that it was an arc. Jon's opponent was Manchester black. Granted, i don't care for the no kill code. But, tomasi was setting up jon's change. He chose his father over black. Jon before that had black and white view of things("black is black. White is white. There is no in between" ) . Black tried to make jon blame clark for what happened to lois. He didn't.



He rejects being a copy of his father's exact same. A son isn't a father's copy. But, that doesn’t mean he doesn't want to be superman. Jon didn't reject his future in black dawn. This idea that jon was moving away from his desires is false. Supersons comradeship is built on that promise. Black dawn book ends with jon taking flight with kathy(jon was with kathy in his future vision. It was a possibility) like in his dream as superman. It was set up as step in right direction. Jon as well as damian will always strive to be worthy of titles superman and batman.

As for jon's space adventures. Bendis's run is nowhere near over. Superman's origin was told in bullet points as well,which where later expanded upon. Jon's will be like that. The fact that there are holes in characters history is the character's strength,not weakness. Writers have many things to work with Especially his relationship with ultraman and his days in earth-bad. I think its more than enough of a payoff for losing his childhood in a volcano being abused by lookalike of his father. That's not even the worst part. The lookalike isn't even the devil. It was one of the best issues in bendis run.

It felt like tokyo ghoul where kaneki was abused by his mother.

[Adekis]

I'd rather Conner go off and do his own thing. A real punk rock YOUNG SUPERMAN book with Conner that's a lot more "Young Animal" in spirit and tone, would be the move.

See, the problem is that I love the idea of a Young Animal Superman book with a little more punk rock ethos, but like... I want it to star Kal. I fell in love with the t-shirt and jeans version of Kal, and the t-shirt and jeans version of Kon was... fine? But definitely not the same thing.

[Flash Gordon]

See, the problem is that I love the idea of a Young Animal Superman book with a little more punk rock ethos, but like... I want it to star Kal. I fell in love with the t-shirt and jeans version of Kal, and the t-shirt and jeans version of Kon was... fine? But definitely not the same thing.

I'd rather have that too. I just feel like we'll never get that now.

[Adekis]

I'd rather have that too. I just feel like we'll never get that now.

That's fair.

[Ascended]

I'd rather have that too. I just feel like we'll never get that now.

Well.....who knows. I mean, it's not likely, no, but I dunno if I'd say it's impossible.

The whole 5G thing has a pretty well defined timeline. And maybe that's just because DC finally realized they need one, but I wonder; what's the point of knowing what stuff happened when, if its only going to be background detail you never do anything with? If your timeline is that tightly worked out wouldn't you do something with it? And we have those rumors of books set in different eras.

And Didio was a fan of t-shirt Superman, from what I understand. Took every opportunity to use that version and design anyway (Pak's Batman-Superman arc, Future's End, Sideways annual, etc).

Plus we've got a sequel to Metal coming up, an ever-expanding multiverse and a metaverse now. I don't think we'll get that rock n roll Superman either, but if it were ever gonna happen, now is the time.

[SpideyCeo]

I don't understand the comparison. Jon got invited to legion because of his contribution as the one who came up with the idea of united planets.it was sortof a payoff for the **** he went through on his journey in space and everywhere else.

Saturn girl even says so.
Being son of superman isn't exactly risk free. The kid got tortured and kidnapped by every other villains including his own grandpa. Jon isn't as powerful as clark he got scars to prove it. Jon and conner have nothing in common. Even jon and clark have more in common.As for the s, well it was given to him for protecting lois in lois and clark. He even tried to fly before falling on his face. And He was what? 7 or 8.


Conner's lack of direction is because he is stuck in young justice book hoping universes. Jon at the moment is expendable. Conner would never be that.he had multiple media appearances last year.
I will admit jon is privileged. He is as privileged as clark was.
I would like jon to be someone who gets hurt and keeps on coming. Not the man of steel who never gets hurt. I don't want jon to have telekinesis or whatever. He should be some one good at hand to hand and street smart, finally learn to use a sword. Bring on the Superman sword.
Jon and conner have nothing in common. Jon is quirky, energetic, ball of energy And conner is a cool, ladies man, city boy.

since when has Conner been cool or a ladies man recently?