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  1. #76

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    Spider-Man 2 is the dumbest movie in the trilogy, and was the dumbest Spider-Man movie until Homecoming nearly succeeded at dethrowning it.

    "The power of the sun, in the palm of my hands"
    Nobody bothered asking "Doctor, wouldn't that be hot?" or "What about the gravitational force and field?" or "That will be too bright, we don't have protection for our eyes"

    The mere idea of the tentacles being attached to his spinal cord with needles should kill him, he constantly breaks the joints of his spine, and that lets loose his spinal fluid, it's fatal. But no, the movie just okays it.

    Tentacles have artificial intelligence that is exclusive to the movie, and a chip made of what looks like glass material to protect his higher brain function from the A.I trying to take control of him. Why build something like that? The climax showed that he wasn't controlled, he had control the whole time, so that nonsense line about tentacles controlling the doctor is hokey and useless. Why do they have a mind of their own? Why do they want Ock to continue his experiments? This is nonsense.

    Ock's tentacles kill doctors, Octavius panics, then the tentacles attached to his back with no support to the ground just flip a taxi without further breaking his fatally punctured spine from the immense weight of the tentacles added to that of the car.

    Ock wants to drown himself, tentacles whisper, and he converts to villainy much faster than Electro does in the Amazing Spider-Man 2. Electro at least was unstable before the accident, and suddenly he is surrounded by people who glorify Spider-Man who stopped Electro from killing the sniper that shot him, and at least Electro was subject to some sort of racism in Times Square before getting shot at. Ock had a lot of good things going for him until the accident, and then the tenatcles tell him "Continue your experiments, don't shy away from being evil", and Ock is "YES, I'M EVIL".

    Doc Ock is worse than Electro, but people mistake Electro for thinking he turned evil cause Spider-Man doesn't remember his name, although Electro was willing to listen to Spider-Man once Spider-Man called him Max.

    And later, Doc Ock is willing to squash Spider-Man's head and kill Aunt May with a smile on his face. That's not a good sympathetic villain, that's just dumb.

    And this Ock received so many attacks from Spider-Man, fell from a high tower on a moving train, and all in all he was mostly undamaged, a pudgy middle aged man who probably wasn't trained to fight. Even if you argue Spider-Man was pulling his punches, there is no way he should survive the electric shock to his system, falling from a great height, or even that kick to the face from Spider-Man on the train. Remember the group of thugs amateur Spider-Man took down with absolute ease in the first movie to take pictures for the Bugle? Those were trained men who lost to Spider-Man pulling his punches.

    Ock should be threatening in keeping Spider-Man at bay with his stretching tentacles, something the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon actually did better than this dumb dumb dumb movie.

    MJ is terrible. She's constantly annoyed, she's always mad, just cause Peter missed her play one time. That happened in the 90s cartoon, that happened in the MTV cartoon, she wasn't annoying in those two cartoons, why is she excused here? More needy and annoying than she is accused of in Spider-Man 3 where she was still trying to be with a Peter who wouldn't let her talk so she went to Harry cause she wanted someone to listen, not to cheat on Peter with. If you say Peter was flaky, MJ broke her promise of marriage.

    And Harry is some dumb shit. Ok, I get it, vengeance is blind, but guess what? Two years is enough time to think things through and question why would a killer gently place the victim at his home. But no, that is the fuel that drives the second act of the movie to where it reaches its climax of MJ getting kidnapped again and Spider-Man is placed to be killed.

    Near the end of the movie, Harry doesn't want to kill his friend and sees the thing that killed his father, what does he do? Take it, and prepare it for the sequel, cause that's the plan they had for it anyway.

    Power loss and reactivation is dumb.


    I do appreciate that they've shown how much weight superheroing comes with on the life of someone, but they went overboard by making Peter too much of a doormat. C'mon guys, you're supposed to be fans of the character, you know Peter has a more outward and lovable personality than a doormat who takes punches without exclaiming "careful buddy, your should bag hit me in the face".
    Last edited by Speed Force League Unlimited; 03-07-2020 at 04:33 AM.
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  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Force League Unlimited View Post
    Spider-Man 2 is the dumbest movie in the trilogy, and was the dumbest Spider-Man movie until Homecoming nearly succeeded at dethrowning it.

    "The power of the sun, in the palm of my hands"
    Nobody bothered asking "Doctor, wouldn't that be hot?" or "What about the gravitational force and field?" or "That will be too bright, we don't have protection for our eyes"

    The mere idea of the tentacles being attached to his spinal cord with needles should kill him, he constantly breaks the joints of his spine, and that lets loose his spinal fluid, it's fatal. But no, the movie just okays it.

    Tentacles have artificial intelligence that is exclusive to the movie, and a chip made of what looks like glass material to protect his higher brain function from the A.I trying to take control of him. Why build something like that? The climax showed that he wasn't controlled, he had control the whole time, so that nonsense line about tentacles controlling the doctor is hokey and useless. Why do they have a mind of their own? Why do they want Ock to continue his experiments? This is nonsense.

    Ock's tentacles kill doctors, Octavius panics, then the tentacles attached to his back with no support to the ground just flip a taxi without further breaking his fatally punctured spine from the immense weight of the tentacles added to that of the car.

    Ock wants to drown himself, tentacles whisper, and he converts to villainy much faster than Electro does in the Amazing Spider-Man 2. Electro at least was unstable before the accident, and suddenly he is surrounded by people who glorify Spider-Man who stopped Electro from killing the sniper that shot him, and at least Electro was subject to some sort of racism in Times Square before getting shot at. Ock had a lot of good things going for him until the accident, and then the tenatcles tell him "Continue your experiments, don't shy away from being evil", and Ock is "YES, I'M EVIL".
    I'm sorry but if this stuff bothers you how did you ever tolerate the comics?

    And later, Doc Ock is willing to squash Spider-Man's head and kill Aunt May with a smile on his face. That's not a good sympathetic villain, that's just dumb.
    He's still being controlled by the tentacles AI at this point.

    And this Ock received so many attacks from Spider-Man, fell from a high tower on a moving train, and all in all he was mostly undamaged, a pudgy middle aged man who probably wasn't trained to fight. Even if you argue Spider-Man was pulling his punches, there is no way he should survive the electric shock to his system, falling from a great height, or even that kick to the face from Spider-Man on the train.
    You realize this all applies to the comics and other versions, right?

    Remember the group of thugs amateur Spider-Man took down with absolute ease in the first movie to take pictures for the Bugle? Those were trained men who lost to Spider-Man pulling his punches.
    They were ordinary guys with guns, nothing more.

    And Harry is some dumb shit. Ok, I get it, vengeance is blind, but guess what? Two years is enough time to think things through and question why would a killer gently place the victim at his home.
    There were no other suspects and Spider-Man didn't give an interview to explain how he couldn't have been the one who killed Norman.

    Near the end of the movie, Harry doesn't want to kill his friend and sees the thing that killed his father, what does he do? Take it, and prepare it for the sequel, cause that's the plan they had for it anyway.
    He didn't know that was what killed his father until the next film.

    Power loss and reactivation is dumb.
    They put more of an explanation into it than the comics did.

  3. #78
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I'm sorry but if this stuff bothers you how did you ever tolerate the comics?
    Movies ARE supposed to be better than comics- more plausible, clear, less cluttered.

    The explanations for Ock in Spider-Man 2 are less so than in Ditko’s story on all fronts.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Movies ARE supposed to be better than comics- more plausible, clear, less cluttered.

    The explanations for Ock in Spider-Man 2 are less so than in Ditko’s story on all fronts.
    You mean the one where they blamed his actions on radioactivity messing with his brain?

    And I don't recall Ditko addressing any of the other stuff SFLU mentioned about Ock like how he can survive being hit by Spider-Man.

  5. #80
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    You mean the one where they blamed his actions on radioactivity messing with his brain?
    Wasn’t done in the original and radioactivity messing with his brain is still more simple and less convoluted than AI made him meat puppet.

    And I don't recall Ditko addressing any of the other stuff SFLU mentioned about Ock like how he can survive being hit by Spider-Man.
    Ditko showed that Spider-Man holds back.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Wasn’t done in the original and radioactivity messing with his brain is still more simple and less convoluted than AI made him meat puppet.
    What was the explanation then? And there is nothing convoluted about the AI. This word gets too casually tossed around by people to describe an explanation they don't like.



    Ditko showed that Spider-Man holds back.
    And you don't assume the same for this version of Spider-Man why? Other media frequently shows ordinary humans taking hits from Spider-Man without any mention of him holding back. No one questions it there so why is it a problem for Raimi only?

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    And you don't assume the same for this version of Spider-Man why? Other media frequently shows ordinary humans taking hits from Spider-Man without any mention of him holding back. No one questions it there so why is it a problem for Raimi only?
    Yes, it would be ridiculous for Raimi or anyone to have to make it explicitly clear in every fight scene that Spidey is purposely not hitting normal people with enough force to either kill or permanently damage them. We can safely assume he's applying the appropriate level of force in any given conflict and not out there trying to, you know, murder people.

  8. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I'm sorry but if this stuff bothers you how did you ever tolerate the comics?
    Comics Ock did get a few blows which doesn't make sense, but he mostly keeps Spider-Man at a distance or running away. His first appearance has him losing after one punch from Spider-Man.
    Tentacles did not puncture his spine like in the movie, with exception of Spectacular Spider-Man that took nods from the movies. He still did not receive many punches.



    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    He's still being controlled by the tentacles AI at this point.
    He had full control of his actions.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    You realize this all applies to the comics and other versions, right?
    Nah, nope. This version received way too much punishment even compared to 616 comics, there is no way he should be alive.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    They were ordinary guys with guns, nothing more.
    But they were more trained in fighting than Ock ever was. Ock enduring so much punishment through the power of tentacles


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    There were no other suspects and Spider-Man didn't give an interview to explain how he couldn't have been the one who killed Norman.
    That doesn't mean Spider-Man killed him, Harry had enough time to think this through.



    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    He didn't know that was what killed his father until the next film.
    Why would Spider-Man -a man hailed as a hero both before and after the death of Norman- kill an innocent guy by puncturing him in the pelvis with large blades and then gently place him at a couch in his home which his son to witnessed?


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    They put more of an explanation into it than the comics did.
    Stress from his life, mostly the loss of love with MJ, Big whoop. Still not a good explanation. This is handled as badly as Peter's ulcer which even Gerry Conway forgot eventually in his initial run, maybe worse.



    Anytime someone puts an effort into explaining why the movie works make my head run circles processing the same questions, and I still end up with the Amazing Spider-Man 2 and its fractured storytelling makes more sense than what is praised as the best.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Yes, it would be ridiculous for Raimi or anyone to have to make it explicitly clear in every fight scene that Spidey is purposely not hitting normal people with enough force to either kill or permanently damage them. We can safely assume he's applying the appropriate level of force in any given conflict and not out there trying to, you know, murder people.
    Oh yeah, almost getting hit by a clocktower analog, jump kick on the fast moving train to the torso, swing kick in the warehouse, and the punch in the puddle where Spider-Man pulls his fist all the way back and pushes it forward in full force are all obviously love taps.
    Last edited by Speed Force League Unlimited; 03-07-2020 at 04:49 PM.
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  9. #84

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    Here are panels of Ock mostly holding Spider-Man's fist from hitting his face.









    Peter did land a few punches in early comics, but Ock was nowhere near as durable as his film counterpart ever was, and he never got electrocuted.
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  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Force League Unlimited View Post
    Comics Ock did get a few blows which doesn't make sense, but he mostly keeps Spider-Man at a distance or running away. His first appearance has him losing after one punch from Spider-Man.
    Tentacles did not puncture his spine like in the movie, with exception of Spectacular Spider-Man that took nods from the movies. He still did not receive many punches.
    He'd been receiving multiple hits from Spider-Man throughout the comics. With the way you're describing Peter, Octavius should be dead from just one or two hits.

    And while we're at it, Octavius should have died from radiation poisoning in the comics but somehow did not.


    He had full control of his actions.

    No he did not. This is made clear in the film.


    But they were more trained in fighting than Ock ever was.
    Which movie did you watch? The extent of their fighting skills is hitting one guard with a gun. You're talking about them like they were The Expendables.



    That doesn't mean Spider-Man killed him, Harry had enough time to think this through.
    There was no evidence provided that Spider-Man did not kill him. He was found with the dead body and never went out of his way to set the record straight about how Norman died.



    Why would Spider-Man -a man hailed as a hero both before and after the death of Norman- kill an innocent guy by puncturing him in the pelvis with large blades and then gently place him at a couch in his home which his son to witnessed?
    It's made clear not everyone sees Spider-Man as a hero.


    Stress from his life, mostly the loss of love with MJ, Big whoop.
    It's the same reason he had for becoming the Green Goblin in the comics. Again, if this stuff drives you nuts so much, how did you stand the comics?

  11. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    He'd been receiving multiple hits from Spider-Man throughout the comics. With the way you're describing Peter, Octavius should be dead from just one or two hits.

    And while we're at it, Octavius should have died from radiation poisoning in the comics but somehow did not.
    I did mention that it's usually one or two hits an issue, and most cases have these punches a few days apart, and they are more phased out than being a total punching bag for an entire fight.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    No he did not. This is made clear in the film.
    Aha, tentacles whispering are totally controlling him, that's why he easily told them to listen to him once he had a change of heart. He was less out of control of himself than Alexi Syetsevic was in the Amazing Spider-Man 2 in that truck or the Rhino suit.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Which movie did you watch? The extent of their fighting skills is hitting one guard with a gun. You're talking about them like they were The Expendables.
    I did mention the ones in the first movie.



    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    There was no evidence provided that Spider-Man did not kill him. He was found with the dead body and never went out of his way to set the record straight about how Norman died.
    In the same night MJ was kidnapped and a bridge accident happened. It should make Harry at least wonder with his obsession as how did this happen when his father should not be near the sight of the fight.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    It's made clear not everyone sees Spider-Man as a hero.
    Jonah Jameson, a couple of cops, and one truck driver. The rest were like that one chick from Spider-Man 2 "GO SPIDEY GO" cheering for him.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    It's the same reason he had for becoming the Green Goblin in the comics. Again, if this stuff drives you nuts so much, how did you stand the comics?
    When did you start mention power loss about Green Goblin? I think a few ideas crossed for you.


    The comics are more believable than the movie, like in the panels I've shown above that mention Spider-Man being more often kept at bay than not. I looked at entire fights with Doc Ock in some of these comics, and I did mention before that Ock handling these attacks is absurd, but they are few and Spider-Man is mostly kept at bay.

    Movie Ock was a punching bag full force. Yes he should be dead, or at least unconscious with heavy headaches when he gets up after a while.

    Ock was hit 4 times in a row in Amazing Spider-Man 115 and remained down until cops came to take him from his mansion. Movie Ock got hit much harder and was only dizzy for a few seconds.

    Comics don't make me question Ock's credibility as a super villain as much as Spider-Man 2 does cause he succeeds at keeping Spider-Man at bay most of the fight, his tentacles don't puncture his spine, and he did not receive high jolts to his system that only put him down for a minute.


    Spider-Man 2 is a dumb movie through and through. Ock fights are cool to look at but are dumb considering what he should be able to handle, and it's far less than comics Ock should be able to handle. The tentacles taking control of him is an excuse that did not happen and makes no sense, even if it did happen it makes zero sense. Tentacles puncturing his spinal cord is dumb. Harry is dumb, MJ is dumb, power loss is dumb (and in the movie it actually happened, not Spider-Man believed happened to him at a moment but it didn't really happen that was shown in the first annual).
    The movie for the most part is just... dumb. No amount of defense changed my mind, cause whenever I look at the movie and the comics there is a world of difference, only thing that was adapted straight up from comics is the pudgy scientist in an accident during his work that turned him berserk.


    So there is a world of difference between the comics and the movie in storytelling quality and gauging vulnerability and abilities, and what are supposed to be cheesy and corny 60s and 70s comics literally show greater quality in storytelling when compared to a $200 million dollars movie with a bizarre level of high praise it doesn't deserve.
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  12. #87
    Astonishing Member batnbreakfast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Force League Unlimited View Post
    Spider-Man 2 is the dumbest movie in the trilogy, and was the dumbest Spider-Man movie until Homecoming nearly succeeded at dethrowning it.

    "The power of the sun, in the palm of my hands"
    Nobody bothered asking "Doctor, wouldn't that be hot?" or "What about the gravitational force and field?" or "That will be too bright, we don't have protection for our eyes"

    The mere idea of the tentacles being attached to his spinal cord with needles should kill him, he constantly breaks the joints of his spine, and that lets loose his spinal fluid, it's fatal. But no, the movie just okays it.

    Tentacles have artificial intelligence that is exclusive to the movie, and a chip made of what looks like glass material to protect his higher brain function from the A.I trying to take control of him. Why build something like that? The climax showed that he wasn't controlled, he had control the whole time, so that nonsense line about tentacles controlling the doctor is hokey and useless. Why do they have a mind of their own? Why do they want Ock to continue his experiments? This is nonsense.

    Ock's tentacles kill doctors, Octavius panics, then the tentacles attached to his back with no support to the ground just flip a taxi without further breaking his fatally punctured spine from the immense weight of the tentacles added to that of the car.

    Ock wants to drown himself, tentacles whisper, and he converts to villainy much faster than Electro does in the Amazing Spider-Man 2. Electro at least was unstable before the accident, and suddenly he is surrounded by people who glorify Spider-Man who stopped Electro from killing the sniper that shot him, and at least Electro was subject to some sort of racism in Times Square before getting shot at. Ock had a lot of good things going for him until the accident, and then the tenatcles tell him "Continue your experiments, don't shy away from being evil", and Ock is "YES, I'M EVIL".

    Doc Ock is worse than Electro, but people mistake Electro for thinking he turned evil cause Spider-Man doesn't remember his name, although Electro was willing to listen to Spider-Man once Spider-Man called him Max.

    And later, Doc Ock is willing to squash Spider-Man's head and kill Aunt May with a smile on his face. That's not a good sympathetic villain, that's just dumb.

    And this Ock received so many attacks from Spider-Man, fell from a high tower on a moving train, and all in all he was mostly undamaged, a pudgy middle aged man who probably wasn't trained to fight. Even if you argue Spider-Man was pulling his punches, there is no way he should survive the electric shock to his system, falling from a great height, or even that kick to the face from Spider-Man on the train. Remember the group of thugs amateur Spider-Man took down with absolute ease in the first movie to take pictures for the Bugle? Those were trained men who lost to Spider-Man pulling his punches.

    Ock should be threatening in keeping Spider-Man at bay with his stretching tentacles, something the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon actually did better than this dumb dumb dumb movie.

    MJ is terrible. She's constantly annoyed, she's always mad, just cause Peter missed her play one time. That happened in the 90s cartoon, that happened in the MTV cartoon, she wasn't annoying in those two cartoons, why is she excused here? More needy and annoying than she is accused of in Spider-Man 3 where she was still trying to be with a Peter who wouldn't let her talk so she went to Harry cause she wanted someone to listen, not to cheat on Peter with. If you say Peter was flaky, MJ broke her promise of marriage.

    And Harry is some dumb shit. Ok, I get it, vengeance is blind, but guess what? Two years is enough time to think things through and question why would a killer gently place the victim at his home. But no, that is the fuel that drives the second act of the movie to where it reaches its climax of MJ getting kidnapped again and Spider-Man is placed to be killed.

    Near the end of the movie, Harry doesn't want to kill his friend and sees the thing that killed his father, what does he do? Take it, and prepare it for the sequel, cause that's the plan they had for it anyway.

    Power loss and reactivation is dumb.


    I do appreciate that they've shown how much weight superheroing comes with on the life of someone, but they went overboard by making Peter too much of a doormat. C'mon guys, you're supposed to be fans of the character, you know Peter has a more outward and lovable personality than a doormat who takes punches without exclaiming "careful buddy, your should bag hit me in the face".
    Also see homecoming is good but Spider-Man 2is great by comic book girl 19 on YouTube. From my phone, sorry

  13. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by batnbreakfast View Post
    Also see homecoming is good but Spider-Man 2is great by comic book girl 19 on YouTube. From my phone, sorry
    Seen it. Spider-Man 2 has some right ideas, but the execution of most of them is not as good as the praise I see around for the movie. I love watching it and it's entertaining, but they needed to work around the script flaws to make it all around good.
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  14. #89
    Astonishing Member batnbreakfast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Force League Unlimited View Post
    Seen it. Spider-Man 2 has some right ideas, but the execution of most of them is not as good as the praise I see around for the movie. I love watching it and it's entertaining, but they needed to work around the script flaws to make it all around good.
    As a fan of Michael Chabon I am heavyly biased when it comes to SM2. Wonderboys and Kavalier & Clay are great novels

  15. #90
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batnbreakfast View Post
    As a fan of Michael Chabon I am heavyly biased when it comes to SM2. Wonderboys and Kavalier & Clay are great novels
    Nothing of Chabon’s stuff is there in the final draft.

    His idea was Ock being Peter’s age, a romantic rival for MJ, wasn’t used. A whole bunch of stuff wasn’t used.

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