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  1. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by RamaBird View Post
    I don't want to see her with any of the New Mutants romantically. Wolfsbane and Karma should remain as sisters.
    Agreed. Especially the ship with Rahne, it feels off to me for some reason.

  2. #347
    Amazing Member rf2044's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    That was like 35 years ago. Dani's utilization in present day shouldnt be too surprising considering how sporadic she's been used since the 90s
    Her DEBUT was ~35 years ago, when she vaulted to being the most featured member of the team. Then, she got massive run with X-Force in the mid-to-late 90s, then was again featured in the early 2000s, and again in the early 2010s.

    I'm trying to understand the gaps in between. It isn't like she was a character from the mid-80s who didn't have legs or was a bit player who disappeared into the ether -- Dani was a major, major presence on several high profile Marvel books. Other than Fearless Defenders [which was a really, really bad series, IMO] where she was relegated to a supporting role, every other time Dani is used she factors prominently into the plot and becomes a featured member of the team -- often the leader, and invariably the team's designated bad a$$. So why the vanishing act?

    Maybe there's some validity to the female / minority point raised above to explain the cyclical under-utilization.
    Last edited by rf2044; 12-01-2020 at 08:17 AM.

  3. #348
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rf2044 View Post
    Her DEBUT was ~35 years ago, when she vaulted to being the most featured member of the team. Then, she got massive run with X-Force in the mid-to-late 90s, then was again featured in the early 2000s, and again in the early 2010s.

    I'm trying to understand the gaps in between. It isn't like she was a character from the mid-80s who didn't have legs or was a bit player who disappeared into the ether -- Dani was a major, major presence on several high profile Marvel books. Other than Fearless Defenders [which was a really, really bad series, IMO] where she was relegated to a supporting role, every other time Dani is used she factors prominently into the plot and becomes a featured member of the team -- often the leader, and invariably the team's designated bad a$$. So why the vanishing act?

    Maybe there's some validity to the female / minority point raised above to explain the cyclical under-utilization.
    No, Dani was at her peak in terms of what you wrote, importance, utilization and up and coming lead. That ended when Claremont left NM in 1987. She did not have a massive run in X-Force. I loved her on the team but she joined relatively late, past the point when the book was at its height of popularity and when the X-books in general were on a decline. That did not elevate her, nor did her return in a supporting capacity as a teacher in the 00s. New Mutants v3 was the most prominent usage of her we've had until Rosenberg used her in Uncanny last year. Overall though, her usage has been very sporadic over the past 30 or so years.

    The problem is that other than UXM, she's never been a part of a flagship title. What are these several high profile books you are talking about? She tends to be used in spinoff books that unfortunately many ignore. Like had Illyana not gone on to be used in Gillen and then Bendis' Uncanny books, we wouldnt be talking about her as an A-lister. Dani's never had that momentum. Keeping her relegated to New Mutants or the occasional Valkyrie book attempt of the moment doesnt do much to give her a real effective push
    Last edited by Havok83; 12-01-2020 at 08:28 AM.

  4. #349

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    Agreed. No one has nailed Dani like Claremont, much like her narrative predecessor Storm. Unlike Storm, Dani wasn't an X-Man, so it was easy for her to slip through the cracks. She was tossed off to Asgard before the NM transitioned to X-Force, missing their flourish. I personally enjoyed later X-Force when she did join up, but it is a rather obscure run. Barely anyone remembers her whole Quantum powers thing, for instance.

    That's another problem: her powers are all over the place. Is she a full reality warper? Is she a weirdly specific telepath/empath? Is she a bow and arrow Psylocke? Or a Valkyrie? Or powerless?

    And of course being female and Native will present a chasm of connection for the predominant creators and audiences. Look at how horribly she was translated to screen. Claremont pulled of a rare feat with both Dani and Ororo, and very few to none have been very successful in replicating/expanding on that.
    Let the flames destroy all but that which is pure and true!

  5. #350
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    I'd like to see her keep her Valkyrie powers while also keeping her empathic/telepath powers that connect her to her past and Demon Bear. I also want her to follow the Cyclops road, meaning her main power in the end will be her leadership skills.

  6. #351
    Amazing Member rf2044's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    No, Dani was at her peak in terms of what you wrote, importance, utilization and up and coming lead. That ended when Claremont left NM in 1987. She did not have a massive run in X-Force. I loved her on the team but she joined relatively late, past the point when the book was at its height of popularity and when the X-books in general were on a decline. That did not elevate her, nor did her return in a supporting capacity as a teacher in the 00s. New Mutants v3 was the most prominent usage of her we've had until Rosenberg used her in Uncanny last year. Overall though, her usage has been very sporadic over the past 30 or so years.

    The problem is that other than UXM, she's never been a part of a flagship title. What are these several high profile books you are talking about? She tends to be used in spinoff books that unfortunately many ignore. Like had Illyana not gone on to be used in Gillen and then Bendis' Uncanny books, we wouldnt be talking about her as an A-lister. Dani's never had that momentum. Keeping her relegated to New Mutants or the occasional Valkyrie book attempt of the moment doesnt do much to give her a real effective push
    I was talking about X-Force and New Mutants as being high profile - but your characterization of them as spinoff books is making me rethink that. I can certainly get behind the notion that Dani's tenure on X-Force may not have been that book's peak, even though it was the "era" of the team and composition that I enjoyed the most. You are definitely onto something with the other appearances -- New X-Men was a spinoff that was minor, Fearless Defenders was minor, and even the later volumes of New Mutants kept her in the X-Men's shadow.

    Whereas others [like Cannonball and Illyana] shifted around to other teams and got more broad exposure, Dani never escaped the gravitational pull of the cozy amniotic sack of second tier X-titles. Astute point that I hadn't previously considered.



    Quote Originally Posted by yogaflame View Post
    Agreed. No one has nailed Dani like Claremont, much like her narrative predecessor Storm. Unlike Storm, Dani wasn't an X-Man, so it was easy for her to slip through the cracks. She was tossed off to Asgard before the NM transitioned to X-Force, missing their flourish. I personally enjoyed later X-Force when she did join up, but it is a rather obscure run. Barely anyone remembers her whole Quantum powers thing, for instance.

    That's another problem: her powers are all over the place. Is she a full reality warper? Is she a weirdly specific telepath/empath? Is she a bow and arrow Psylocke? Or a Valkyrie? Or powerless?

    And of course being female and Native will present a chasm of connection for the predominant creators and audiences. Look at how horribly she was translated to screen. Claremont pulled of a rare feat with both Dani and Ororo, and very few to none have been very successful in replicating/expanding on that.
    You and Havok83 make another good point about Claremont. As the creator of the New Mutants concept / characters, he seemed to "get" them both as teenagers struggling to cope with their burgeoning, emerging powers AND as a collection of "misfit toys" that came from distinctly diverse backgrounds and personal histories. It was pretty ambitious, if you think about it and put it into "historical" context of the early 80s -- a team comprised primarily of women, with numerous members of the team coming from a variety of ethnic backgrounds [Xi'an from APAC, Roberto from Brazil, Dani as an indigenous person]. Claremont seemed to have a great formula -- he made the women prominent at a time when there weren't a lot of examples of women being figural in comics [there were some on the Avengers, like the Wasp who was a team leader around that time]. He also did a great job of featuring their individuality and diverse ethnicities without making that a one-dimension trope for the characters. It was a terrific blend to have Dani dress in a way that reflected her Native American heritage without everything about her being a caricature of that culture like Apache Chief.

    I agree about her power set. I've often wondered if her becoming a valkyrie / the short lived quantum abilities were an attempt to power her up.
    Last edited by rf2044; 12-01-2020 at 10:12 AM.

  7. #352

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    If you read those first few issues of NM again, you can see that Dani had the potential to be a true reality warper, actually manifest those fears/desires, not just illusions. Brood-Xavier tapped into her true extent. I distantly remember just before she was sent to Asgard she had begun tapping into that potential again, but then she was gone from the book. I feel like the Quantum power story was harkening back to that original potential, in a roundabout way.
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  8. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arachne View Post
    Yeah, your probably right. It's probably why she was depowered, and I've long suspected it's why she got written out right when Liefeld came on board New Mutants.
    She was depowered so that the new cast of New Mutants/New X-Men could all be action focused/powered characters, sweeping out the old cast. Hence Sophia losing her powers, Wallflower catching a headshot, Josh getting butchered, etc.

    Which may have been a small blessing. Students dying under Emma is all but expected, but I'd hate for that to be placed on Dani's shoulders

  9. #354
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rf2044 View Post
    I was talking about X-Force and New Mutants as being high profile - but your characterization of them as spinoff books is making me rethink that. I can certainly get behind the notion that Dani's tenure on X-Force may not have been that book's peak, even though it was the "era" of the team and composition that I enjoyed the most. You are definitely onto something with the other appearances -- New X-Men was a spinoff that was minor, Fearless Defenders was minor, and even the later volumes of New Mutants kept her in the X-Men's shadow.

    Whereas others [like Cannonball and Illyana] shifted around to other teams and got more broad exposure, Dani never escaped the gravitational pull of the cozy amniotic sack of second tier X-titles. Astute point that I hadn't previously considered.





    You and Havok83 make another good point about Claremont. As the creator of the New Mutants concept / characters, he seemed to "get" them both as teenagers struggling to cope with their burgeoning, emerging powers AND as a collection of "misfit toys" that came from distinctly diverse backgrounds and personal histories. It was pretty ambitious, if you think about it and put it into "historical" context of the early 80s -- a team comprised primarily of women, with numerous members of the team coming from a variety of ethnic backgrounds [Xi'an from APAC, Roberto from Brazil, Dani as an indigenous person]. Claremont seemed to have a great formula -- he made the women prominent at a time when there weren't a lot of examples of women being figural in comics [there were some on the Avengers, like the Wasp who was a team leader around that time]. He also did a great job of featuring their individuality and diverse ethnicities without making that a one-dimension trope for the characters. It was a terrific blend to have Dani dress in a way that reflected her Native American heritage without everything about her being a caricature of that culture like Apache Chief.

    I agree about her power set. I've often wondered if her becoming a valkyrie / the short lived quantum abilities were an attempt to power her up.
    I can see the argument for the original NM under Claremont being high profile but later versions havent been. Her time on X-Force wasnt either as it didnt die into anything. When she joined was when they stopped doing crossovers so it didnt even benefit from that annual push. Yogaflame is correct in that it was more of an obscure run.

    Dani is kept in NM bc of nostalgia but its stifling her growth potential. They should mix things up and put her elsewhere. She'd be a good fit for the current incarnation of X-Force or heck try her somewhere unexpected like SWORD or Maraurders. Without the current era having a flagship with a true team, I dont see her getting a real push though. Things arent set up to really elevate a singular character as we've seen in past runs

  10. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by RamaBird View Post
    Her not being used despite her enormous potential is not because she was depowered, but because let's keep it real, Marvel can barely show respect to Storm (who they badly use anytime they want to brag about "diversity") much less the other female heroes of color. Yes, it seems it's finally changing but still.

    Most writers being straight white males means only females that get respect are the Emma/Magik types and that's because they're "masculine, privileged and white" themselves. It's stereotypically more difficult for them to understand what life is like for the "minorities" (the secret to writing good female characters is to write them the same way you'd write a male. Yes there'll be differences but they both go through the same arcs at the end).

    The straight guys I've dealt with, have an easier time understanding being gay than understanding women.
    Privileged and white I get but how are Emma and Magik masculine?

  11. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Privileged and white I get but how are Emma and Magik masculine?
    They both care more about being right than being kind. Feminine people tend to prefer being kind over right.

    They're the "cool chicks" to name a trope. This is only a bad thing in the hands of a mediocre writer. Like how Magik is always the one to save the day despite being surrounded by mega powerhouses. This is how Kitty could fix everything while Storm and Rachel got taken out at the beginning of fights. Or remember how anytime a female leader becomes a leader she cuts her hair?

  12. #357
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RamaBird View Post
    They both care more about being right than being kind. Feminine people tend to prefer being kind over right.

    They're the "cool chicks" to name a trope. This is only a bad thing in the hands of a mediocre writer. Like how Magik is always the one to save the day despite being surrounded by mega powerhouses. This is how Kitty could fix everything while Storm and Rachel got taken out at the beginning of fights. Or remember how anytime a female leader becomes a leader she cuts her hair?
    bc Magik is a powerhouse herself. She should be able to defeat most of their threats on her own and writers have to either ignore her abilities or find some way to take her out to keep that from happening

  13. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by RamaBird View Post
    They both care more about being right than being kind. Feminine people tend to prefer being kind over right.
    I don't think I would call this a "feminine" trait. But then again, I think coding kindness as feminine has unfortunate implications in its own right.

    Or remember how anytime a female leader becomes a leader she cuts her hair?
    In fairness, I think this is only a thing with Storm when it comes to the X-Men. Or marvel as a whole.

  14. #359
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I don't think I would call this a "feminine" trait. But then again, I think coding kindness as feminine has unfortunate implications in its own right.



    In fairness, I think this is only a thing with Storm when it comes to the X-Men. Or marvel as a whole.
    Its not a thing. There are plenty of female X-leaders that kept their hair. Psylocke, Kwannon, Adult Jean Grey, Kitty (Maraurders), Rogue,Dani, Illyana, Polaris, Dazzler, Hope. I think people saw it happen a couple o times and try to make it out like its the norm when its not./
    Last edited by Havok83; 12-01-2020 at 11:59 AM.

  15. #360
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    In fairness, I think this is only a thing with Storm when it comes to the X-Men. Or marvel as a whole.
    Kitty did it (when she led the X-Men). Crystal did it. Medusa eventually did it. Looks like Abigail Brand is doing it.

    Can we count X-Men Blue Jean?

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