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  1. #31
    Astonishing Member your_name_here's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    We already saw this in the Netflix Daredevil show which dealt with his backstory and sympathetic motivations. And Kingpin doesn't "lose everything close to him on his way up". His wife Vanessa who he loves loyally supports him in his criminal endeavors and is by his side when he emerges as Kingpin.
    Well, we can see it again. Joker is a very different take on the villain and so can this one. It was also the same in Spider-Verse.

    He wouldn’t find Vanessa in this film. Although she could be with him at the beginning of the film but could possibly leave him the colder he gets, truly leaving him alone.

  2. #32
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    Seems like it would be easy to make a film like this for any character, just a simple checklist really.
    1. Make a film devoid of any comic book influence.
    2. Use only the barest minimum of superficial references.
    3. Slap a popular character's name on it.
    4. Get called brilliant for it.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by your_name_here View Post
    Well, we can see it again. Joker is a very different take on the villain and so can this one.
    Anyway, Kingpin is primarily a Daredevil villain rather than a Spider-Man one, especially in terms of character. It was in Daredevil comics that his origin was touched upon after all.

  4. #34
    Astonishing Member your_name_here's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Anyway, Kingpin is primarily a Daredevil villain rather than a Spider-Man one, especially in terms of character. It was in Daredevil comics that his origin was touched upon after all.
    He is also a Spider-Man rogue. The OP asked for suggestions, I gave mine.

  5. #35
    Astonishing Member your_name_here's Avatar
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    Mysterio could also be a good one.
    Quentin Beck works effects, often gets ignored for his work. Wants to pull off the ultimate illusion to ruin whoever ruined his careers life. His decline in sanity makes him obsessed with the illusion. Once he has pulled it off, he believes he’s achieved his goal and immortalised himself, so kills himself (much like he did in DD)
    Last edited by your_name_here; 01-26-2020 at 06:00 AM.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by your_name_here View Post
    Mysterio could also be a good one.
    Quentin Beck works effects, often gets ignored for his work. Wants to pull off the ultimate illusion to ruin whoever ruined his careers life. His decline in sanity makes him obsessed with the illusion. Once he has pulled it off, he believes he’s pulled it off and immortalised him, so kills himself (much like he did in DD)
    That sounds interesting.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by your_name_here View Post
    Well, we can see it again. Joker is a very different take on the villain and so can this one. It was also the same in Spider-Verse.

    He wouldn’t find Vanessa in this film. Although she could be with him at the beginning of the film but could possibly leave him the colder he gets, truly leaving him alone.
    Quote Originally Posted by your_name_here View Post
    Mysterio could also be a good one.
    Quentin Beck works effects, often gets ignored for his work. Wants to pull off the ultimate illusion to ruin whoever ruined his careers life. His decline in sanity makes him obsessed with the illusion. Once he has pulled it off, he believes he’s achieved his goal and immortalised himself, so kills himself (much like he did in DD)
    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    That sounds interesting.
    Agreed, and as for your take on Vanessa leaving Fisk, that did happen in TAS (managed to be a surprisingly sad moment, "What you really love is being the Kingpin, the Kingpin of Crime") and Into the Spider-Verse. Even in the original comics, she eventually died hating him and Daredevil, believing they deserved nothing but to ultimately kill each other.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Joker ends the movie killing an innocent man on stage, and the final shot with the blood-stained footprints confirms he killed that psychologist at Arkham too. The man ends up murdering innocent people and however unlikable they are, they do not deserve to die. That makes him a villain, pure and simple.



    Which is a standard narrative about a protagonist's journey to villain. A similar story arc exists for Anakin Skywalker in the prequels. And many other stories about people who slowly "go postal".



    Joker is the villain in that story too. Having a sympathetic motivation doesn't negate the fact that the character in that story, and in Joker 2019, is a villain. For comparison, Ruben Fleischer's Venom 2019 is not a villain because he doesn't kill or attack innocent people.



    The crime alley scene with the pearls and the dead parents belies that. I mean that moment is the worst part of that movie and obviously was shoehorned in but it's presence doesn't mean that the movie "has no superhero lore".



    No one would pay to see that kind of movie. Miles Warren and Jackal has always been an embarrassing character in the comics and believe me he's quite behind the line of Spider-Man villains people want to introduce on screen.
    You still don't get the point. Joker is not a film about a conflict between good and evil (like most superhero films, or Star Wars), so trying to fit the characters into "hero" or "villain" archetypes is completely pointless, regardless if they do good or bad stuff (which is another thing). As for the potential of a Miles/Gwen film, remember that the film industry works on its own, completely departed from comic books and its niche fandoms, and films triumph or fail on their own merits. The X-Men franchise is very little like the X-Men comics, and Joker has little to do with the comic book villain, but they became successes anyway. And, before their release, many people thought that films about obscure comic book characters like Ant-Man, Deadpool, the Guardians of the Galaxy or even Iron Man were doomed to fail. And yet, here we are...

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimate Captain America View Post
    You still don't get the point.
    I do in fact get your point.

    Joker is not a film about a conflict between good and evil
    Even in stories that are not overt about it, you can still see some characters as villainous and some as heroic. How the movie wants you to feel about it, and how the audience actually feels about it, are separate things. But the actual rational perspective cannot be completely overridden.

    Like Taxi Driver and The King of Comedy, to cite the movies that Joker is based on...in no way are you supposed to completely relate to and validate the actions of those characters.

    so trying to fit the characters into "hero" or "villain" archetypes is completely pointless, regardless if they do good or bad stuff (which is another thing).
    I am sorry but just to be clear...are you saying that Joker killing people at the end of that movie is justified and cannot be considered "bad stuff". Because I think that kind of mentality is incredibly dangerous and irresponsible.

    It's one thing to understand and empathize with the character of Joker, or find him entertaining and fun, and even find something with which to agree with. Like in The Dark Knight, when Joker gives his "all according to plan" speech to Harvey Dent at the hospital, you can think that's a fairly logical point he's making (albeit using it as a trick to gaslight Harvey) but the movie is unambiguous that Joker is the bad guy and the villain of the movie. You can agree with the villain so long as you accept and know for a fact that it's the villain.

    Likewise in Joker 2019, you are certainly meant to relate to Arthur Fleck and Joker, but the movie's point is still that it's a tragedy that he becomes a monster clown and it's got no illusions that Fleck does in fact become a monster clown. Of course the entire movie's premise is doomed because audiences actually paid to see the monster clown do monster clown things and the end of the movie can also be seen as "this is Arthur living his best life" which is part of the reason that movie fails any moral message it's trying to make (for the same reason Alan Moore believed he failed with The Killing Joke). But a failure of execution doesn't mean that the actual plot isn't in fact Arthur Fleck being driven down to an awful path and becoming Joker is a tragedy.

    As for the potential of a Miles/Gwen film, remember that the film industry works on its own, completely departed from comic books and its niche fandoms, and films triumph or fail on their own merits.
    Yeah, and the film industry (barring Disney) looks at comics as largely a piggy bank to make them money, and if they get enough surplus maybe they can use that to fund some niche or auteur stuff that's actually cinema. Disney is different in that they don't care about cinema and are all about the piggy bank. Like the producer of Joker, Emma Tillinger-Koskoff produces Scorsese's stuff as well as indie movies like Uncut Gems. Joker made her bank, and probably helps her work doing the other stuff more.

    Amy Pascal and Tom Rothman, who get so much hate for their stuff on Sony, actually fund stuff like Little Women and Jim Jarmusch movies. Spider-Man and other superhero stuff is important for them, but it's important so that they can do other stuff with that clout and money.

    If there are Hollywood studios who want to do a Lolita story, i.e. a creepy professor who wants to seduce his student, they'd just make Lolita. Making Lolita with Warren/Gwen is absolutely not on anyone's radar since both characters are both unprofitable characters, hardly anyone knows who Miles Warren/Jackal is, since he's considered a joke villain with a terrible design and gimmick and associated with a disreputable story like The Second Clone Saga.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 01-27-2020 at 07:41 AM.

  10. #40

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    So, your answer to the original question would be a "No". But that begs the question: why is there a "Joker" film to begin with? It could have been easier to rename it to "The Sad Clown" or something like that, change the name of the Wayne family to anything else, and they wouldn't need to pay any royalties to Warner, with the film remaining completely the same one.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimate Captain America View Post
    So, your answer to the original question would be a "No".
    Can there be a "Joker" Type with a Spider-Man villain? My actual definitive answer is in the spectrum that stretches from "Not Sure to Maybe and Meh"

    If by "Joker" type we mean
    -- A movie about a supervillain where the hero is peripheral to marginal.
    -- A movie about a supervillain who still the ends the story as a villain rather than an anti-hero (a la Venom or for that matter Suicide Squad, or some of the other stuff people are pitching here like Superior Otto)

    Then my offer is to adapt Nick Spencer's cult series, "The Superior Foes of Spider-Man" which centers on C-D List villains among Spidey's rogues gallery and is a Tarantino-Ritchie movie with NY supervillains instead of London gangsters. Spencer makes the narrative work, and he doesn't make the bad guys redeemable at the end. Understandable yes, compelling certainly, empathetic, to a point. But definitely not redeemable.

    My feelings is that some stuff is more likelier than others. I am not saying Superior Foes is likely. Stuff like a Kingpin solo movie, or a Goblin solo movie, or even a solo Sinister Six movie with Keaton's Vulture in charge is perhaps likelier than that but that's readymade material for a "Joker-type film on a Spider-Man character". But stuff like Warren/Gwen, yeah that I think is just really remote and not especially interesting as a concept.

    But that begs the question: why is there a "Joker" film to begin with? It could have been easier to rename it to "The Sad Clown" or something like that, change the name of the Wayne family to anything else, and they wouldn't need to pay any royalties to Warner, with the film remaining completely the same one.
    That actually was a legit complaint and issue during the production of that movie.
    -- Martin Scorsese read the script and consulted over it but ultimately passed because he felt that the ending where the guy the audience came to know as Arthur Fleck actually becomes Joker (TM of Warner/DC) was something he just couldn't wrap his head around and make work.
    -- Joaquin Phoenix was okay with ending as Joker but he didn't like the presence of Thomas Wayne and other DC stuff and wanted it to be entirely standalone.

    The reason ultimately is that Todd Philips thought he could make a R-Rated low-budget movie about mental illness for a wide audience if he put clown makeup and a purple suit into the mix. And it worked. Whether it should have or will ultimately make a positive difference remains to be seen.

    I personally don't think the movie worked. Alan Moore said that The Killing Joke was an attempt to put believable psychology behind a supervillain origin story, and provide clarity for Joker and Batman's relationship, but that didn't work because ultimately Joker can't really change, it's not a real possibility for him because the character is a gimmicky villain for Batman to punch now and again. So you don't really get any tragic catharsis for the loss of "the man Joker once was and could have been". In the case of Joker 2019, at the end when Arthur becomes Joker, it's presented as almost like a triumphant apotheosis...that dance down the stairs, that scene where he joins the rioters and smears blood on his face with a smile, him killing a shink and walking around Arkham to the tune of Sinatra...that's basically classic Joker, and the way the narrative frames it is that Arthur has become his best self. Joker 2019 is not a movie that believes or is interested in curing people with mental illness. Neither is The Killing Joke, and where Moore was self-conscious and managed to redeem it with that amazing "two guys in a lunatic asylum joke" that Batman also laughs to, we don't get that relief in Joker 2019.

  12. #42

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    As for Joker's villainy, he had this discussion after the riot.

    Joker: ...so that's how I became a super villain with a massive clown army!
    Palpatine: Super villain? I wouldn't go that far.
    Beetlejuice: Yeah! I don't think any of that was real, bub!
    Joker: What?
    Skeletor: Yes! I think you made it all up!
    Joker: Are you calling me an unreliable narrator?
    Skeletor: Yes!
    Joker: I'm insulted! Why would you say a thing like that? I was invited on TV, I shot the host and nobody stopped me, even though I just confessed to murder! That started a riot, which caused Thomas Wayne, who may or may not be my biological father, to also get shot in the alley out back! Why does that sound so unbelievable?
    Skeletor: Because you are delusional!
    Shredder: Because your girlfriend wasn't real!
    Megatron: Because you didn't have any master plan!
    Cobra commander: Yeah! That's not a super villain! That's just super dark and depressing!

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimate Captain America View Post
    As for Joker's villainy, he had this discussion after the riot.
    I like HISHE videos as much as the next guy, but that's not a substitute for actual discussion.


    Joker: ...so that's how I became a super villain with a massive clown army!
    Palpatine: Super villain? I wouldn't go that far.
    Beetlejuice: Yeah! I don't think any of that was real, bub!
    Joker: What?
    Skeletor: Yes! I think you made it all up!
    Joker: Are you calling me an unreliable narrator?
    Skeletor: Yes!
    Joker: I'm insulted! Why would you say a thing like that? I was invited on TV, I shot the host and nobody stopped me, even though I just confessed to murder! That started a riot, which caused Thomas Wayne, who may or may not be my biological father, to also get shot in the alley out back! Why does that sound so unbelievable?
    Skeletor: Because you are delusional!
    Shredder: Because your girlfriend wasn't real!
    Megatron: Because you didn't have any master plan!
    Cobra commander: Yeah! That's not a super villain! That's just super dark and depressing!
    He didn't get thrown out unlike the Suicide Squad people (for "Saving the World") or Eisenberg-Luthor (who was lame). So he still counts.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Might work. But Jonah isn't a villain, and again if you do a Jonah story without Spider-Man, without superheroes and so on, and just have him as a straight no-nonsense hard-edged crusading editor and journalist, will people come?
    I would watch an investigative sort of mystery movie revolving around JJJ and the Daily Bugle

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Agreed, and as for your take on Vanessa leaving Fisk, that did happen in TAS (managed to be a surprisingly sad moment, "What you really love is being the Kingpin, the Kingpin of Crime") and Into the Spider-Verse. Even in the original comics, she eventually died hating him and Daredevil, believing they deserved nothing but to ultimately kill each other.
    You know... I don't think we've had a take on Kingpin where Richard continuously tries to undermine his father like he did in comics. I do think the Fisk family drama would be interesting enough for a film.

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