Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 41
  1. #16
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    New Jersey, U.S.A.
    Posts
    7,863

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    As a kid, I enjoyed the post-Clone Saga stories featuring Norman -- he was interjecting himself into all facets of Peter's life and, to me, he was incredibly threatening: buying the Bugle, becoming Flash's mentor -- it just seemed like every time Pete and MJ turned around, there was Norman, involving himself with yet another Parker loved one.

    -Pav, who was hoping Kaine would get him...
    Yeah, that's a very good point to bring up. Those post-Clone Saga stories with Norman were him just rubbing it in Peter's and Mary Jane's faces that he'd already taken so much from them both, and because of his repositioning himself as a respectable member of legitimate society, they couldn't do anything to touch him unless they wanted him to take even more from them by exposing Peter's identity. The sheer impunity Osborn was reveling in at that time . . . pretty chilling.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  2. #17

    Default

    True on that, Norman Osborn is Peter's greatest enemy, because he is the one who attacks more personally than any other, now with Norman back after Absolute Carnage, working in Ravencroft, it's the perfect time to have this same Norman Osborn in Peter's life, whose mere presence says to Pete that he can do whatever he wants, attack whenever he wants and Peter can't touch him.

    I really hope Spencer make use of this, I really loved the Absolute Carnage Tie-in that showed how much Norman has affected Peter's life.

  3. #18
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    New Jersey, U.S.A.
    Posts
    7,863

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathangoop1811 View Post
    True on that, Norman Osborn is Peter's greatest enemy, because he is the one who attacks more personally than any other, now with Norman back after Absolute Carnage, working in Ravencroft, it's the perfect time to have this same Norman Osborn in Peter's life, whose mere presence says to Pete that he can do whatever he wants, attack whenever he wants and Peter can't touch him.

    I really hope Spencer make use of this, I really loved the Absolute Carnage Tie-in that showed how much Norman has affected Peter's life.
    Same. That last page . . . it's Dark Reign all over again, albeit seemingly smaller-scale for now.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  4. #19
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,177

    Default

    I really like that stretch of Norman Osborn stories from around 1974 to 1995. They're all so good!

  5. #20
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    3,744

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    I really like that stretch of Norman Osborn stories from around 1974 to 1995. They're all so good!
    That's a good one, bravo.

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,177

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    That's a good one, bravo.
    Don't get me wrong, I've enjoyed most if not all of the stories listed here. But I think Norman is at his strongest as a legacy of evil, the anti-Uncle Ben corrupting everything he touches from beyond the grave.

    The problem with Norman post-resurrection is that he's just another guy whose plans Peter can frustrate and who he can punch in the face from time to time to let off some steam. There's something much more poignant about the idea that Peter's issues with Norman can never be resolved. They can never be talked out or punched out or taken to court or brought to the public. Marvel only brought him back as a sleight-of-hand trick to divert fans' attention away from disillusionment over the Clone Saga. And of course good writers can find interesting things to do with him now that he's alive but nothing will ever match the impact of Norman being an untouchable ghost.

  7. #22
    Mighty Member Zeitgeist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Oz
    Posts
    1,351

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I've enjoyed most if not all of the stories listed here. But I think Norman is at his strongest as a legacy of evil, the anti-Uncle Ben corrupting everything he touches from beyond the grave.

    The problem with Norman post-resurrection is that he's just another guy whose plans Peter can frustrate and who he can punch in the face from time to time to let off some steam. There's something much more poignant about the idea that Peter's issues with Norman can never be resolved. They can never be talked out or punched out or taken to court or brought to the public. Marvel only brought him back as a sleight-of-hand trick to divert fans' attention away from disillusionment over the Clone Saga. And of course good writers can find interesting things to do with him now that he's alive but nothing will ever match the impact of Norman being an untouchable ghost.
    I dunno, as a guy who's since been quite corporeal he's proven himself still as someone hard to get a hold of.
    Also, my personal issue with legacies is that I feel it's very rare anyone really ever measures up to the initial person who set that legacy in the first place. Plus there's only so much you can have someone do beyond the grave before it comes contrived. YMMV though, of course.

    That all said, while I like Norman is around, it's hard to think anything will ever top dropping Gwen off a bridge and being impaled by his own glider. But I mean, if he's ever going to try, there's a lot of alternate reality Gwens out there to throw off of things. Positivity is the key to happiness, Normy!
    ♪ღ♪*•.¸¸¸.•*¨ ¨*•.¸¸¸.•*•♪ღ♪¸.•*¨ ¨*•.¸¸¸.•*•♪ღ♪•*

    ♪ღ♪░M░E░P░H░I░S░T░O░ W░A░S░ R░I░G░H░T░♪ღ♪

    *•♪ღ♪*•.¸¸¸.•*¨ ¨*•.¸¸¸.•*•♪¸.•*¨ ¨*•.¸¸¸.•*•♪ღ♪•«

  8. #23
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,177

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeitgeist View Post
    I dunno, as a guy who's since been quite corporeal he's proven himself still as someone hard to get a hold of.
    There's a huge difference between 'hard to get hold of' and impossible. The cyclical nature of comics demands that Norman gets varying levels of comeuppance, a constant rising and falling like Kingpin and Lex Luthor and other 'untouchables.' They all have moments where even when they're still in power the hero frustrates their ambitions because their ambitions have no end.

    It doesn't have to be anything huge, mind you. Matt's victory at the end of "Born Again" is relatively minor compared to what the Kingpin put him through. Kingpin is still virtually untouchable though his efforts to appear completely legitimately have been frustrated. The point being that Matt still has a moment of catharsis, just as Peter has had numerous times over the years since Norman was resurrected. Most recently in the Carnage crossover issue.

    Now compare that to the hollowness of Peter's revenge in ASM 122. Norman dies in an instant while Peter carries the guilt and pain from Gwen's passing for the rest of his life. And then you just keep piling on that--his best friend's descent into madness, his best friend's psychiatrist taking up the legacy, another crook he let go discovering the Goblin cache and leading to the Hobgoblin, Harry's relapse and death--there's a cumulative effect with no hope for catharsis.

    Also, my personal issue with legacies is that I feel it's very rare anyone really ever measures up to the initial person who set that legacy in the first place. Plus there's only so much you can have someone do beyond the grave before it comes contrived. YMMV though, of course.
    Well, the point isn't so much whether the subsequent Goblins 'measure up' but their ability to inflict damage in Osborn's name. That said, Norman was never as impressive as people seem to think. His crowning achievement was the kidnapping and murder of a non-superpowered individual who was completely unaware of the danger he posed. Norman's one mad, reckless act had a devastating impact, but it wasn't due to any criminal genius on his part. In the end, he's the supervillain equivalent of a mass shooter.

    That all said, while I like Norman is around, it's hard to think anything will ever top dropping Gwen off a bridge and being impaled by his own glider. But I mean, if he's ever going to try, there's a lot of alternate reality Gwens out there to throw off of things. Positivity is the key to happiness, Normy!
    That's the essential problem. There's no real value in Norman continuously kill off Peter's love interests or alternate Gwens and having him become some kind of criminal mastermind comparable to Lex Luthor undermines the point of ASM 122. Compared to villains like Doc Ock, he's a total loser. He knows it and he's pissed about it and that's why he lashes out one last time on what is essentially a suicide mission. Pissing off the guy who has bested him countless times and has only been held back by his innate decency. If that isn't suicide, what is? And if he'd actually killed Spider-Man, then what? He has no idea!

  9. #24
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    3,744

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I've enjoyed most if not all of the stories listed here. But I think Norman is at his strongest as a legacy of evil, the anti-Uncle Ben corrupting everything he touches from beyond the grave.
    I don't think Norman ever really was an "anti-Uncle Ben" in that period you mentioned. Fact is between Harry becoming Goblin and "Best of Enemies" everyone moved on. Harry recovered, got married, and had a child. Peter and MJ moved on and got married. Hobgoblin was a big deal for a while and then became marginal and unimportant. The biggest threats were Venom and Carnage in the period after 122 and before his resurrection.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Now compare that to the hollowness of Peter's revenge in ASM 122. Norman dies in an instant while Peter carries the guilt and pain from Gwen's passing for the rest of his life. And then you just keep piling on that--his best friend's descent into madness, his best friend's psychiatrist taking up the legacy, another crook he let go discovering the Goblin cache and leading to the Hobgoblin, Harry's relapse and death--there's a cumulative effect with no hope for catharsis.
    Harry Osborn isn't really Peter's best friend (Flash Thompson was Peter's best man at his wedding, not Harry). And Harry recovered for a long time after that and moved on.

    That said, Norman was never as impressive as people seem to think.
    Yes he was. He was the only Spider-Man villain who Peter never sent to jail during the entire Lee-Ditko era. He made more appearances than any other villain in that period.

    People need to get over the idea that Night Gwen Stacy Died is the story that made Goblin worth something. The truth is Goblin was Spider-Man's arch-enemy long before that. Goblin was chosen to kill Gwen because he was the Arch-Enemy, he wasn't chosen to kill Gwen because they wanted to raise his profile. The plan was to kill Gwen...and having the Gibbon do it would not have been respectful for the theme and tragedy of the story. So it needed to be the big villain.

  10. #25
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    452

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    That's the essential problem. There's no real value in Norman continuously kill off Peter's love interests or alternate Gwens and having him become some kind of criminal mastermind comparable to Lex Luthor undermines the point of ASM 122. Compared to villains like Doc Ock, he's a total loser. He knows it and he's pissed about it and that's why he lashes out one last time on what is essentially a suicide mission. Pissing off the guy who has bested him countless times and has only been held back by his innate decency. If that isn't suicide, what is? And if he'd actually killed Spider-Man, then what? He has no idea!
    Well...there was the original goal of becoming the top crime boss of New York...attention just shifted to Spider-Man. I mean they have made Norman's ambitions larger scale within the past couple decades, but pre-impalement I'd think that would be where he would want to go. (Interestingly, most adaptations I've seen simply go on a revenge spree)

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Yes he was. He was the only Spider-Man villain who Peter never sent to jail during the entire Lee-Ditko era. He made more appearances than any other villain in that period.

    People need to get over the idea that Night Gwen Stacy Died is the story that made Goblin worth something. The truth is Goblin was Spider-Man's arch-enemy long before that. Goblin was chosen to kill Gwen because he was the Arch-Enemy, he wasn't chosen to kill Gwen because they wanted to raise his profile. The plan was to kill Gwen...and having the Gibbon do it would not have been respectful for the theme and tragedy of the story. So it needed to be the big villain.
    While I don't doubt being "the one who got away" elevating Norman's status in supervillainy, I thought it was said that Conway didn't know what to do with both the characters of Gwen and Norman as they seemed to repeat the same song and dance repeatedly (Gwen perpetually finding a reason to hate Spider-Man, and Norman slipping in and out of amnesia and only escaping prosecution after unmasking because Peter LET him go).
    Last edited by Mistah K88; 02-07-2020 at 11:11 AM.

  11. #26
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    3,744

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mistah K88 View Post
    While I don't doubt being "the one who got away" elevating Norman's status in supervillainy, I thought it was said that Conway didn't know what to do with both the characters of Gwen and Norman as they seemed to repeat the same song and dance repeatedly (Gwen perpetually finding a reason to hate Spider-Man, and Norman slipping in and out of amnesia and only escaping prosecution after unmasking because Peter LET him go).
    The whole point of The Night Gwen Stacy Died was to kill Gwen. Pure and simple. In theory, any villain could have done it. Conway felt that Green Goblin made the most sense since A) He knew Peter's identity, B) He had relapsed once before as Goblin during the drug trilogy, so it could work.

    Green Goblin after Ditko left also became a rare villain since the whole issue with him that Lee-Romita used was the constant suspense of Norman being part of Peter's supporting cast, someone who could be an unwitting ally but could go Mr. Hyde all of a sudden. Conway also figured that having Harry turn into the Green Goblin could work. So while the original Green Goblin was taken out, a new Goblin was still around. That was how Conway saw things. The problem was that later writers diluted it. Rather than keeping Harry as the Goblin, they introduced a slew of pretenders. Starting with that shrink who was supposed to treat Harry, followed later by Kingsley. Harry Osborn lacked the criminal genius and super-science inclinations to be an effective Goblin and was more victim than villain so he wasn't a successful replacement for Norman. Harry needed protection from editors to make him an effective Goblin replacement.

  12. #27
    Incredible Member Ozymandias's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    536

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    He had relapsed once before as Goblin

    Conway also figured that having Harry turn into the Green Goblin could work.
    He relapsed twice before.

    I wouldn't believe Conway on that, even if he swore it on a Bible. The figure lurking in the shadows couldn't possibly be the Harry seen that issue.

  13. #28
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    3,744

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
    He relapsed twice before.
    Aside from the Drug Trilogy when did Norman relapse as Goblin in the entire Lee-Romita era?

    I wouldn't believe Conway on that, even if he swore it on a Bible. The figure lurking in the shadows couldn't possibly be the Harry seen that issue.
    Well it was in fact Harry, strung out and high on 616 Marvel LSD (as opposed to actual LSD which aren't habit-forming the way it's shown in the Drug issues).

    Conway said in Marvel Creators on Spider-Man that he wanted Harry to become Goblin to replace Norman, so that even if he had killed Green Goblin the villain was still around as a legacy. But it didn't work because Harry just isn't Norman. It worked with Baron Zemo, where Helmut has taken over Heinrich, so it wasn't a bad idea in and of itself. It just didn't work with the Green Goblin.

  14. #29
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,177

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Aside from the Drug Trilogy when did Norman relapse as Goblin in the entire Lee-Romita era?
    The Spectacular Spider-Man Magazine #2, which featured the tense dinner scene that was adapted for Raimi's SM1.

  15. #30
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    3,744

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    The Spectacular Spider-Man Magazine #2, which featured the tense dinner scene that was adapted for Raimi's SM1.
    Is that canon? Because my understanding was that Spectacular Magazine's B+W stuff was non-canon or rather non-616. I mean Gerry Conway in his run had to readapt one of the stories from the magazine (the Raleigh politician story) to make that canon rather than simple referring to it.

    The only other appearance of Norman Osborn and Green Goblin between ASM#40 and ASM#121 (aside from the Drug Trilogy) was the flashback in ASM#47 where Kraven apparently had dealings with Green Goblin before ASM#40 (which technically makes it the first Untold Tales of Spider-Man in publ. history).

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •