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  1. #121
    Ultimate Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Her casually wiping the minds of the Prydes to avoid an inconvenient argument, blasting Emma into a coma after acting cocky and taunting her, and wrecking the car of the Hellfire goons chasing Kitty beg to differ. Also, there was no Phoenix force when that story was written, it was all her. Which is way more interesting.

    Mastermind just made it worse and she might not have gone dark without his interference, but her edge was there. It definitely reads as a woman getting more powerful and that making her evil, something which Claremont seems to have regretted a bit and didn't repeat with the rest of the Claremazons.
    She was abusing a bit of power, but I don't see it as going full bad. She was in control, a bit nexperienced, but if wasn't the meantl tampering she would be fine.

  2. #122
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    She was abusing a bit of power, but I don't see it as going full bad. She was in control, a bit nexperienced, but if wasn't the meantl tampering she would be fine.
    She MAY have been fine, and that's the tragedy of Mastermind's interference.
    In the context of the original story, both Charles and Moira suspect Jean's turn would have been inevitable, the Hellfire Club just sped it along.

    In Morrison's run, she's fine when she starts becoming Phoenix again. So that either proves them wrong, or she's just more emotionally prepared for it this time due the previous experiences and knows what to expect. Plus she starts to get a better understanding of what the Phoenix is.

  3. #123
    Ultimate Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    She MAY have been fine, and that's the tragedy of Mastermind's interference.
    In the context of the original story, both Charles and Moira suspect Jean's turn would have been inevitable, the Hellfire Club just sped it along.

    In Morrison's run, she's fine when she starts becoming Phoenix again. So that either proves them wrong, or she's just more emotionally prepared for it this time due the previous experiences and knows what to expect. Plus she starts to get a better understanding of what the Phoenix is.
    I really doubt she would go full dark phoenix. Her reaction to being abused by Mastermind was very similar to abuse victims that become trainwrecks and was a trainwrecked amped by a cosmic force.

    Jean being more mature and experienced helped a lot to control phoenix on Morrison's run

  4. #124
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    I really doubt she would go full dark phoenix. Her reaction to being abused by Mastermind was very similar to abuse victims that become trainwrecks and was a trainwrecked amped by a cosmic force.

    Jean being more mature and experienced helped a lot to control phoenix on Morrison's run
    The actual content of the published story disagrees with you, at least to the point that Jean possibly going out of control was always on the table. But then a lot of the content in Morrison's run contradicts your statements as well.

    Your saying here that she's more mature and experienced with the Phoenix contradicts your earlier statement that it's one of the worst portrayals of Jean/Phoenix ever. it building off the original story and redeeming aspects of it would actually make it one of the best, right? Plus he established/re-iterated that she can't even permanently be killed. Meanwhile, she gets to hang out in the White Hot Room and sipping a glass of wine or whatever while the rest of the poor saps have to deal with AvX*

    *Unless she was involved, I'm not reading that trash to find out

  5. #125
    Astonishing Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    spirit will die on their hill that Morrison tarnished Jean. You can present compelling reasoned evidence for an iconic and affirming character arc, but because Magneto zapped her four issues before Jean saves the Marvel Universe, it’s utter trash and there’s no ground to give.

  6. #126
    MXAAGVNIEETRO IS RIGHT MyriVerse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kisinith View Post
    You've just discovered one of the (many) reasons I hated Morison's X-Men, A lot of people loved it and I never really understood why. It never struck me as being revolutionary, I thought it was just bad and the OoC moments... I always thought I'd like it more as an AU.
    Sure wish more people realized how lousy of a writer Morrison really is. I could say the same about many of Marvel's "big" writers since 2000. Talk a good game and the fanboys just eat it up, I guess.
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  7. #127
    Astonishing Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyriVerse View Post
    Sure wish more people realized how lousy of a writer Morrison really is. I could say the same about many of Marvel's "big" writers since 2000. Talk a good game and the fanboys just eat it up, I guess.
    What would you say is Morrison’s biggest weakness as a writer?

  8. #128
    Ultimate Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyriVerse View Post
    Sure wish more people realized how lousy of a writer Morrison really is. I could say the same about many of Marvel's "big" writers since 2000. Talk a good game and the fanboys just eat it up, I guess.
    Some years ago talk bad about it was considered sacrilege, now people seems more confortable to talk negatively.
    I don't think he is bad at all, he has good qualities for sure. I had some fun reading his comics.
    But his x-men simply isn't good, the bad easily outnumber the good.

  9. #129
    Astonishing Member HandofPrometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    I loved NXM!

    E is for Extinction was one of the first X-Men comic books (if not the first) I ever read. Nostalgia plays a part in my love for it, but I think it really is an amazing run.
    Same, Morrison's run was my first exposure to X-men comics. Re-reading it now because I fricking love it.

    Quote Originally Posted by NewMutant View Post
    If E is for Extinction is bad, then what the hell has been the garbage we've been reading this past decade?
    I guess for them it's bad but still readable than whatever came after *shrugs*

  10. #130
    Ultimate Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    The actual content of the published story disagrees with you, at least to the point that Jean possibly going out of control was always on the table. But then a lot of the content in Morrison's run contradicts your statements as well.

    Your saying here that she's more mature and experienced with the Phoenix contradicts your earlier statement that it's one of the worst portrayals of Jean/Phoenix ever. it building off the original story and redeeming aspects of it would actually make it one of the best, right? Plus he established/re-iterated that she can't even permanently be killed. Meanwhile, she gets to hang out in the White Hot Room and sipping a glass of wine or whatever while the rest of the poor saps have to deal with AvX*

    *Unless she was involved, I'm not reading that trash to find out
    I didn't contradict myself. I htought Jean having control of phoenix was good.

    I just didn't liked the goddess that couldn't bother herself with petty humans that was going on. That is easily the worse take possible

    no one can be permanently killed on comics.

    Jean did a cameo on AvX. Anyway being dead wasn't fun for reading

  11. #131
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    spirit will die on their hill that Morrison tarnished Jean. You can present compelling reasoned evidence for an iconic and affirming character arc, but because Magneto zapped her four issues before Jean saves the Marvel Universe, it’s utter trash and there’s no ground to give.
    I suppose I should know better by now, but it's like picking a scab

    Quote Originally Posted by MyriVerse View Post
    Sure wish more people realized how lousy of a writer Morrison really is. I could say the same about many of Marvel's "big" writers since 2000. Talk a good game and the fanboys just eat it up, I guess.
    Alternatively, people just like his writing because he's an overall great writer that suits their tastes. We don't have to "realize" anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    I didn't contradict myself. I htought Jean having control of phoenix was good.

    I just didn't liked the goddess that couldn't bother herself with petty humans that was going on. That is easily the worse take possible

    no one can be permanently killed on comics.

    Jean did a cameo on AvX. Anyway being dead wasn't fun for reading
    So it was good but also one of the worst? And Jean was plenty concerned with humanity. You're pulling that out of nowhere.

    There doesn't seem to be a lot of fun reading to be had with the X-books in general in the last few years. From what I've seen, nobody enjoyed reading their favorite characters in stuff like AvX, Schism, Bendis's run, or Marvel ignoring the X-Men in favor of the Inhumans, etc. If Jean had been around, I doubt she'd be thriving. She'd be in a rut like almost everyone else.

  12. #132
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    She MAY have been fine, and that's the tragedy of Mastermind's interference.
    In the context of the original story, both Charles and Moira suspect Jean's turn would have been inevitable, the Hellfire Club just sped it along.

    In Morrison's run, she's fine when she starts becoming Phoenix again. So that either proves them wrong, or she's just more emotionally prepared for it this time due the previous experiences and knows what to expect. Plus she starts to get a better understanding of what the Phoenix is.
    I loved that she was confidently exploring and accepting all the possibilities the PF had to offer...even to the point of surprising her fellow X-Men. I thought that was genius of Morrison to flip the PF narrative on its head.
    Before, everyone was so concerned for poor, inexperienced Jean...now...she was telling them to sit down and shut up because she GOT this. Loved that development in her.
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  13. #133
    Ultimate Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post

    So it was good but also one of the worst? And Jean was plenty concerned with humanity. You're pulling that out of nowhere.

    There doesn't seem to be a lot of fun reading to be had with the X-books in general in the last few years. From what I've seen, nobody enjoyed reading their favorite characters in stuff like AvX, Schism, Bendis's run, or Marvel ignoring the X-Men in favor of the Inhumans, etc. If Jean had been around, I doubt she'd be thriving. She'd be in a rut like almost everyone else.
    No, I'm not. She was really growing dettached from humanity and her own desires.

    I liked one aspect. I can see nuance.

    Bendis run was prety fun even if directionless. Gillen was promising to be something until cut short, Blue was ok, Red was great, KT rogue and gambit books were fun, all new wolverine, old man logan.
    Say that they were all awful is very wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    spirit will die on their hill that Morrison tarnished Jean. You can present compelling reasoned evidence for an iconic and affirming character arc, but because Magneto zapped her four issues before Jean saves the Marvel Universe, it’s utter trash and there’s no ground to give.
    No one even saw her saving the universe. And she saved the x-men because it all centered on a man, so she had to let him go because she was holding him back.
    If people can't see the blatant sexism on the narrative
    Last edited by spirit2011; 01-28-2020 at 11:35 AM.

  14. #134
    Astonishing Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    No one even saw her saving the universe.
    An audience is required for acts of heroism?

    (WE did. The readership witnessed her actions. WE know. It’s still less engagement than what I’ve grown to expect from the author of Animal Man and Zatanna, but it’s a pretty intimate act that ONLY the reader knows that Jean Grey changed the past by persuading Cyclops to choose hope over despair.)
    Last edited by CRaymond; 01-28-2020 at 11:46 AM.

  15. #135
    Ultimate Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    An audience is required for acts of heroism?
    It makes it more impactiful like stark dead on Endgame

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