Should Hecate Be One of Wonder Woman's Matron Goddesses?

[kjn]

I voted no.

I prefer Hecate as a neutral presence in the Wonder Woman mythos. But if I had to pick her side, I'd rather she be antagonistic over helping Diana.

I pretty much agree with this. However, I think one should be careful about seeing any of the Greek gods as either strictly antagonist or sympathetic with Diana. They are more representing forces or emotions than moral values. And as Manakel pointed out, nearly everyone of them is vindictive and easy to offend.

To take my favourite example, I think Pérez missed something when he had Diana fight Ares in his run. The entire Cold War, MAD, and detailed planning for nuclear war was much more Athena's domain than it was Ares's. Hecate might not be suitable as an antagonist in that precise way, but she can certainly act as an obstacle to overcome—like why would Diana like to pass through Doom's Doorway?

[Agent Z]

They are more representing forces or emotions than moral values.

This take on the Olympians is always strange to me because the very myths themselves don't really depict them as this. They're very much human (psychologically) in the myths.

And with some of them like Zeus, I'd argue they make far more sense as antagonists than anything else because of what Zeus is like especially when it comes to women.

[Otto Gruenwald]

I don't know. It's an interesting idea but I just can't see Diana as a spellcaster anymore than I can see Superman or Batman. She's a physical fighter. Plus with all the edgy stuff people try to attach to Wonder Woman I'm not sure I'd like connecting her to the underworld anymore than I liked making her the Goddess of War.

[Agent Z]

I don't know. It's an interesting idea but I just can't see Diana as a spellcaster anymore than I can see Superman or Batman. She's a physical fighter. Plus with all the edgy stuff people try to attach to Wonder Woman I'm not sure I'd like connecting her to the underworld anymore than I liked making her the Goddess of War.

I don't think making Hecate a matron goddess for the Amazons means Diana will be a spellcaster. She doesn't take on the traits of every goddess she worships. As for the underworld, it won't be dark and edgy if a writer actually does their research and realizes that death does not equal evil.

[kjn]

This take on the Olympians is always strange to me because the very myths themselves don't really depict them as this. They're very much human (psychologically) in the myths.

And with some of them like Zeus, I'd argue they make far more sense as antagonists than anything else because of what Zeus is like especially when it comes to women.

I'll try to explain a bit better.

You're correct that the Greek myths give plenty of personality and character to their gods. However, they don't give moral or ethical guidelines (apart from that they'll zap you if you disobey or think you're as good as them in any way). Something like the Ten Commandments is foreign to Greek mythology.

The thing about forces or emotions is more about what the gods represent. Ares might represent rage, but also courage and physical strength. Demeter represented the good harvest, but also famine. Aphrodite was the god of love, but also of jealousy. And so on.

I certainly agree that Zeus should be a long-term antagonist to Diana. But I also think it should be a long-term antagonism that doesn't preclude them from allying now and again: a complex and many-facetted antagonism.

I don't know. It's an interesting idea but I just can't see Diana as a spellcaster anymore than I can see Superman or Batman. She's a physical fighter. Plus with all the edgy stuff people try to attach to Wonder Woman I'm not sure I'd like connecting her to the underworld anymore than I liked making her the Goddess of War.

First, I think it's a bit of a mistake to relegate Diana to a physical fighter. She has far more powers and skills than that.

Second, having a relation to Hecate doesn't necessarily mean Diana has to be a spellcaster (though I do think Tynion handled those aspects well in JLD, and I myself think Diana should be well-versed in small personal blessings and rituals that she uses regularly). One might put Hecate as an important deity for the lasso (as the goddess of boundaries and guidance), or as the goddess that put a shroud over Themyscira, and who Diana has to interact with to reach home.

So just because I see no need for Diana to have Hecate as a patron doesn't mean it can't be made to work.

[Agent Z]

I'll try to explain a bit better.

You're correct that the Greek myths give plenty of personality and character to their gods. However, they don't give moral or ethical guidelines (apart from that they'll zap you if you disobey or think you're as good as them in any way).

Sorry, but I can't look at this sentence without thinking, "This very much describes a super villain and not one Diana should ally with in any way unless she's being an idiot".

And I think we've all had enough of Diana being written like an idiot.

Seriously, replace "Zeus" with "Darkseid" and nothing changes except no one describes Darkseid as anything other than a complete monster.

I suppose an argument could be made for Ares being an uneasy ally at times given he's less of an ******* than Zeus.

The thing about forces or emotions is more about what the gods represent. Ares might represent rage, but also courage and physical strength. Demeter represented the good harvest, but also famine. Aphrodite was the god of love, but also of jealousy. And so on.

I guess I prefer to look at what characters do not necessarily what they present.

[Tzigone]

Sorry, but I can't look at this sentence without thinking, "This very much describes a super villain and not one Diana should ally with in any way unless she's being an idiot".

I pretty much feel that way about all the gods, which is one reason I prefer a Diana less steeped in mythology (or the gods less like their mythological counterparts). I personally do have just a bit of fondess for them having only Aphrodite as a patron, since she was so important in old-school WW. But even then, not so much like her mythological counterparts.

Edited my post because I saw it quoted and realized I used "counterpoint" instead of "counterpart."

[WonderScott]

If JLD is to followed, the answer is no.

But I think that's a rather simplistic answer. If we look at ancient Greece, Hecate was a very important goddess there, as the goddess of boundaries. As such she protected doorways, crossroads, guided the spirits of the dead away from—or towards—the living, and various other stuff. If some writer can write a good story based on that, I wouldn't be opposed to it.

However, Wonder Woman already suffers from a rather diffuse power set that is not well used. Most writers have focused on strength (Demeter), speed and flight (Hermes). Some pick up on unity with beasts (Artemis) or wisdom (Athena). Sisterhood with fire (Hestia) and loving heart and empathy (Aphrodite) is hardly ever explored. Getting boundary-crossing powers would simply add more stuff to an area which is already underused.

FWIW, the Magic Lasso has changed more than a bit in its origin. From the beginning it was made by the Amazons themselves, under the direction of Athena and Aphrodite. I think Pérez had Hephaestus make it, and right now it's the Lasso of Hestia. Now, Hecate seems like a good deity for the lasso, but its nature as fire and that Hestia is the goddes of the hearth IMO makes her an even better candidate.

Another thing is that Diana's matrons has always been Olympian gods and goddesses, and Hecate has never been that.

With what you shared about Hecate guarding doorways and boundaries, I’ve already concocted a couple of storylines in my head about Diana and politics as an ambassador or leveraging Gateway City as an actual and metaphorical gateway to other realms and ideas.

[WonderScott]

I'll try to explain a bit better.

You're correct that the Greek myths give plenty of personality and character to their gods. However, they don't give moral or ethical guidelines (apart from that they'll zap you if you disobey or think you're as good as them in any way). Something like the Ten Commandments is foreign to Greek mythology.

The thing about forces or emotions is more about what the gods represent. Ares might represent rage, but also courage and physical strength. Demeter represented the good harvest, but also famine. Aphrodite was the god of love, but also of jealousy. And so on.

I certainly agree that Zeus should be a long-term antagonist to Diana. But I also think it should be a long-term antagonism that doesn't preclude them from allying now and again: a complex and many-facetted antagonism.



First, I think it's a bit of a mistake to relegate Diana to a physical fighter. She has far more powers and skills than that.

Second, having a relation to Hecate doesn't necessarily mean Diana has to be a spellcaster (though I do think Tynion handled those aspects well in JLD, and I myself think Diana should be well-versed in small personal blessings and rituals that she uses regularly). One might put Hecate as an important deity for the lasso (as the goddess of boundaries and guidance), or as the goddess that put a shroud over Themyscira, and who Diana has to interact with to reach home.

So just because I see no need for Diana to have Hecate as a patron doesn't mean it can't be made to work.

Recapturing and portraying the Olympians and other gods as emotions and forces gives me some ideas about how to portray the Amazons faith and idyllic culture in a different way than traditionally depicted. Ideas that accept the capriciousness of the gods, but invert it for their society and culture.

[kjn]

Nice to hear that my little tidbits could be of help, WonderScott!

[marhawkman]

I pretty much feel that way about all the gods, which is one reason I prefer a Diana less steeped in mythology (or the gods less like their mythological counterpoint). I personally do have just a bit of fondess for them having only Aphrodite as a patron, since she was so important in old-school WW. But even then, not so much like her mythological counterpoint.

One of the interesting aspects of Greek mythology that tends to get lost in modern tellings is that the various stories were written by people with agendas. Someone who worshipped Zeus would write his character differently from someone who didn't. It's not consistent because it's not created to be consistent.

[Tzigone]

One of the interesting aspects of Greek mythology that tends to get lost in modern tellings is that the various stories were written by people with agendas. Someone who worshipped Zeus would write his character differently from someone who didn't. It's not consistent because it's not created to be consistent.

I admit I don't know much about that in terms of Greek mythololgy - it certainly seems true for certain Biblical figures. When you have something created over a long period of time by multiple authors, inconsistencies and contradictions are frequent (as comics illustrate). But I've never really heard a Zeus story where he comes off as good or moral. I admit, morality or nobility aren't things I associate with any of the major Greek figures. In the one lone class I had on Greek mythology in college, we were taught that just wasn't what the myths were about.

[kjn]

Ayup. A lot of religion can be divided into two parts: myths and cult practices. The myths were sometimes to entertain, sometimes to teach, and were the thing that were mostly written down. The practices were much more important to daily life, but were seldom documented.

Hestia hardly appears in any myths, but she was arguably the most important goddess for domestic life: being the goddess of the hearth and the receiver of the first part of any sacrifice.

So if we take Themyscira, and go based on the "standard" Greek pantheon and a close relation to the gods, they likely have a central temple of two. But any hearth would be considered a shrine to Hestia. They might have an idol or symbol to Hecate over the entrance to every home. The observatory is sacred to Hera and Zeus. The hospital is sacred to Apollo. The library is sacred to Apollo and Athena. The mill is sacred to Demeter. And so on.

[marhawkman]

I admit I don't know much about that in terms of Greek mythololgy - it certainly seems true for certain Biblical figures. When you have something created over a long period of time by multiple authors, inconsistencies and contradictions are frequent (as comics illustrate). But I've never really heard a Zeus story where he comes off as good or moral. I admit, morality or nobility aren't things I associate with any of the major Greek figures. In the one lone class I had on Greek mythology in college, we were taught that just wasn't what the myths were about.

Well the Greeks had major differences of opinion as to which gods were most important. Diana, for example, was worshipped a lot by the Ephesians, but other places might barely mention her. Different groups would even give different origins for the various deities. Also, one origin for Diana has it that her mother was a TITAN named Leto. Yeah, Leto was the daughter of Coeus and Phoebe. Some people think it was actually taking multiple different mythological figures and reimagining them as the same entity... even if they have different descriptions.

[WonderScott]

Nice to hear that my little tidbits could be of help, WonderScott!

They always do!