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  1. #1
    Extraordinary Member Powerboy's Avatar
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    Default Holodeck or Framework

    Not really a rumble but more a personal tastes question.

    You have one of two options.

    One is that you can live out your life in a holodeck as in Star Trek. You are physically in the holodeck. It is your body. You can change the program at will and be in whatever setting you want. You can even shut off all programs if you want and see the real inside of the holodeck but you can never leave its confines. Other people can come in when you allow it and leave when you allow it. But it is still you with all your advantages and physical ailments including aging. But you could marry a real person, have real kids, have real friends visit, etc. As a bonus, the safety protocols actually work.

    The other option is the Framework from Agents of Shield. Your body lies dormant while your mind experiences the setting as if it was absolutely real. Other real people can enter the Framework when you allow it and leave when you allow it. But they are not physically there though it feels like they are. You can change the setting to anything you want, any fiction you want. You can even have powers since it's all in your mind or a group mind when other real minds are there. You have no physical ailments. Even if your body dies, you can mentally live on in the Framework so you are effectively immortal. The Framework is indestructible so outside harm won't effect you in the Framework. The downside is it's all in your mind so no having children. Any such offspring would be only in your mind. Again, the safety measures work so it won't turn into a nightmare.

    So, with only those choices, Holodeck or Framework?
    His name is CAPTAIN MARVEL.

  2. #2
    Incredible Member Shai-Hulud's Avatar
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    Framework.

  3. #3
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    If other people are in the framework, and their bodies die, do they stay there? Forever, immortal as well?
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

    "...the Myths Transformed version of the legendarium, in which the Moon is Melkor's attempt to make his own Arda with blackjack and hookers."
    - Estrecca

    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move."
    - Nik Hasta

    "[Kent] Nelson was nearly invariably presented as the guy who, barring the Spectre, made everyone else generally gasp and go "Doctor Fate don't shiv, he balls nasty.", even Superman."
    - Pendaran

  4. #4
    Fantastic Member Sol_M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    If other people are in the framework, and their bodies die, do they stay there? Forever, immortal as well?
    Yes, unless the framework is shut off.

    You're effectively trapped inside a simulation.

    ...even though your brain is dead. The writers did not think this one through, though maybe it's just a result of magic.

    With that said:
    1) The Framework here is immune to outside harm, so it should last as long as it has energy.
    2) You can bring your wife and other persons of interest in, and from the perspective of everyone involved, it's effectively the same as both of you being physically there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    The other option is the Framework from Agents of Shield. Your body lies dormant while your mind experiences the setting as if it was absolutely real. Other real people can enter the Framework when you allow it and leave when you allow it. But they are not physically there though it feels like they are. You can change the setting to anything you want, any fiction you want. You can even have powers since it's all in your mind or a group mind when other real minds are there. You have no physical ailments. Even if your body dies, you can mentally live on in the Framework so you are effectively immortal. The Framework is indestructible so outside harm won't effect you in the Framework. The downside is it's all in your mind so no having children. Any such offspring would be only in your mind. Again, the safety measures work so it won't turn into a nightmare.
    That's not entirely how the actual Framework worked, to be fair. The actual Framework's main limitation was that you could only make some small changes to the existing simulation of the world it's based on and let everything develop naturally from there. That's the main reason everything was so messed up in the simulated world.

    So if you choose a setting and make some changes, you have to make sure you don't accidentally screw yourself.

    I suppose you could make up your own setting, though I have no idea how the framework is able to get data for a setting to effectively simulate it.

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member Slade1's Avatar
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    I would HATE to be immortal so probably Holodeck. But if you could end it whenever you want, then framework. Kind of morbid but I would hate to be conscience forever.

  6. #6
    Incredible Member Shai-Hulud's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slade1 View Post
    I would HATE to be immortal so probably Holodeck. But if you could end it whenever you want, then framework. Kind of morbid but I would hate to be conscience forever.
    Yeah, for me too. Long lived until it's time to move on. So Framework but with that caveat.

  7. #7
    Extraordinary Member Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    If other people are in the framework, and their bodies die, do they stay there? Forever, immortal as well?
    Yes. Mrs. Sharpe can stay there forever too.
    His name is CAPTAIN MARVEL.

  8. #8
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol_M View Post
    Yes, unless the framework is shut off.

    You're effectively trapped inside a simulation.

    ...even though your brain is dead. The writers did not think this one through, though maybe it's just a result of magic.

    With that said:
    1) The Framework here is immune to outside harm, so it should last as long as it has energy.
    2) You can bring your wife and other persons of interest in, and from the perspective of everyone involved, it's effectively the same as both of you being physically there.
    Framework.
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

    "...the Myths Transformed version of the legendarium, in which the Moon is Melkor's attempt to make his own Arda with blackjack and hookers."
    - Estrecca

    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move."
    - Nik Hasta

    "[Kent] Nelson was nearly invariably presented as the guy who, barring the Spectre, made everyone else generally gasp and go "Doctor Fate don't shiv, he balls nasty.", even Superman."
    - Pendaran

  9. #9
    Impulsive Nschornhorst's Avatar
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    I'd go with Framework if I could die when I want. If not, then Holodeck.

  10. #10
    Extraordinary Member Güicho's Avatar
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  11. #11
    Extraordinary Member Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol_M View Post
    Yes, unless the framework is shut off.

    You're effectively trapped inside a simulation.

    ...even though your brain is dead. The writers did not think this one through, though maybe it's just a result of magic.

    With that said:
    1) The Framework here is immune to outside harm, so it should last as long as it has energy.
    2) You can bring your wife and other persons of interest in, and from the perspective of everyone involved, it's effectively the same as both of you being physically there.


    That's not entirely how the actual Framework worked, to be fair. The actual Framework's main limitation was that you could only make some small changes to the existing simulation of the world it's based on and let everything develop naturally from there. That's the main reason everything was so messed up in the simulated world.

    So if you choose a setting and make some changes, you have to make sure you don't accidentally screw yourself.

    I suppose you could make up your own setting, though I have no idea how the framework is able to get data for a setting to effectively simulate it.
    Oh I know this isn't exactly how the Framework worked in AoS. But, in fairness, I give the holodecks a bit of a boost too if only in that the safety protocols work and something isn't constantly going wrong with them.

    In terms of my version of the Framework being able to create all sorts of realities, I would assume that the Framework is getting the information from the mind (or minds) of the people in the Framework. You've read the Lord of the Rings? The Framework can tap that information and create it or some variation of it that exists in your mind, for an example.
    His name is CAPTAIN MARVEL.

  12. #12
    Extraordinary Member Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Güicho View Post
    Truly in the Matrix or the Framework, perception is reality.
    His name is CAPTAIN MARVEL.

  13. #13
    Extraordinary Member Powerboy's Avatar
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    To answer my own question, although I have a fair number of physical problems that would not exist in the Framework (lower back pain, for example), I would prefer the holodeck because real people with their real forms could visit me. But immortality kind of beats that. I'm assuming other people can join the Framework to visit me and that they can leave. It's only me that cannot leave the Framework.

    In the OP, I also meant to say that, in the Framework, you will always know who is a construct and who is a real person. Probably should make it the same for the holodecks for that matter although I know the holodecks didn't work that way in the shows.
    His name is CAPTAIN MARVEL.

  14. #14
    Astonishing Member Slade1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    Not really a rumble but more a personal tastes question.

    You have one of two options.

    One is that you can live out your life in a holodeck as in Star Trek. You are physically in the holodeck. It is your body. You can change the program at will and be in whatever setting you want. You can even shut off all programs if you want and see the real inside of the holodeck but you can never leave its confines. Other people can come in when you allow it and leave when you allow it. But it is still you with all your advantages and physical ailments including aging. But you could marry a real person, have real kids, have real friends visit, etc. As a bonus, the safety protocols actually work.

    The other option is the Framework from Agents of Shield. Your body lies dormant while your mind experiences the setting as if it was absolutely real. Other real people can enter the Framework when you allow it and leave when you allow it. But they are not physically there though it feels like they are. You can change the setting to anything you want, any fiction you want. You can even have powers since it's all in your mind or a group mind when other real minds are there. You have no physical ailments. Even if your body dies, you can mentally live on in the Framework so you are effectively immortal. The Framework is indestructible so outside harm won't effect you in the Framework. The downside is it's all in your mind so no having children. Any such offspring would be only in your mind. Again, the safety measures work so it won't turn into a nightmare.

    So, with only those choices, Holodeck or Framework?
    There was an episode from Voyager was was identical to Framework. Voyager comes across a planet where people are in suspended animation and their minds are in a digital shared dream world.

  15. #15
    Fantastic Member Sol_M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    Oh I know this isn't exactly how the Framework worked in AoS. But, in fairness, I give the holodecks a bit of a boost too if only in that the safety protocols work and something isn't constantly going wrong with them.

    In terms of my version of the Framework being able to create all sorts of realities, I would assume that the Framework is getting the information from the mind (or minds) of the people in the Framework. You've read the Lord of the Rings? The Framework can tap that information and create it or some variation of it that exists in your mind, for an example.
    OK, yeah, that is a pretty ideal situation. It's like ascending from your physical body into a higher, untouchable, plane of existence. Which is also under your control to a large degree.

    Actually physically interacting with people in the real world doesn't seem all that useful when you won't really know the difference between interacting with someone in the real world and in your head.

    Definitely Framework, in that case.

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